About The Romanization of Chinese "女"

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#1 by dqwyy
2017-12-30 at 06:45
Hi. Sorry for my poor English.
I found that the Chinese word "女" is romanizated into "nv" in most pages in vndb by most editors. However, according to Hanyu Pinyin (ISO 7098), there is no "v" for Mandarin Chinese. "女" should be romanizated into "nü" instead of "nv".
Are there any special rules for romanization for Chinese in vndb? I'm not sure whether using "nv" is a consensus in vndb or not. If not, could I correct it to "nü"?
#2 by bunny1ov3r
2017-12-30 at 06:54
You are technically right, but when typing on a computer v = ü for pinyin. You won't be wrong if you want to change all of it, but "v" here is well understood by Chinese speakers, and easily typed since it's on keyboard. Be my guest if you want to change all of it, just don't expect future contributors (like me) to do the same.Last modified on 2017-12-30 at 07:01
#3 by dqwyy
2017-12-30 at 07:03
I know that. But I think romanization should not be influenced by IME. "nv" won't appear on a passport of P.R.China or any other formal occasions.
Maybe "nv" will confuse a lot of non-Chinese speakers because "v" donates a consonant sound instead of a vowel sound in most language.Last modified on 2017-12-30 at 07:13
#4 by bunny1ov3r
2017-12-30 at 07:12
This is one problem though. The romanization is there so that users can find the release by searching on database. Changing every v to ü makes typing out the title considerably harder (if searching by romanization), as ü is not on standard keyboard, and one has to paste it somewhere.

Maybe you want to wait a bit, and see what other people say about this, if there are more Chinese-English bilingual speakers on this site that is.Last modified on 2017-12-30 at 07:18
#5 by dqwyy
2017-12-30 at 07:19
Yes. I've considered about this problem. The search engine of vndb is not as smart as Google. That's why I stop editing blindly and start a discussion here. I wish to reach a consensus here.
If there was a consensus, I would suggest admins to add it into editing guidelines.Last modified on 2017-12-30 at 10:05
#6 by tyr
2017-12-30 at 14:49
The argument that ü is not on a standard keyboard is not a very strong one as most people who don't live in an English speaking country don't even have a standard keyboard layout and that is probably a big part of vndb's userbase.
I think it's fairly normal for anyone who isn't only writing in it's own language to be familiar with inputting special characters and switching keyboard layouts on the fly. And since Japanese is essentially when editing vn entries, many vndb contributors should know how to do that.

If you are interested in Chinese games you should know how to type a ü. I'm interested in Chinese entertainment and this is the first time I have ever seen a v being used instead of an ü. Imagine transcribing Japanese by using IME typing rules, nobody would do this and it would not only be hard to read, it also would irritate everyone who is used to seeing Hepburn romanization.

My vote is for changing v back to ü.
#7 by fuukanou
2017-12-30 at 16:52
"Maybe "nv" will confuse a lot of non-Chinese speakers because "v" donates a consonant sound instead of a vowel sound in most language."

All of pinyin confuses non-Chinese speakers...
#8 by dqwyy
2017-12-31 at 04:16
@tyr
Thanks for agreeing with me.
However, unfortunately, many people in China, even some local govenment departments, make the mistake of using "v" to represent "ü". The most common example is the road signs, see this picture.
Fortunately, the department which is responsible for the passpot of P.R.China doesn't make the mistake. The diacritic of "ü" was removed on a passport so it became "u". But now "ü" is converted into "yu" on a passport in order no to be confused with "u". See this news and this Wikipedia article.
So this problem is a little complex.Last modified on 2017-12-31 at 04:21
#9 by wyq928576
2018-01-07 at 09:00
v对能读拼音的人来说,并不会造成误解,输入也方便;除非游戏制作方或翻译方明确给出了不带声调的ü的罗马化,没有必须用ü的理由
#10 by dqwyy
2018-01-08 at 15:19
@wyq928576
Nowadays, ISO 7098 (aka Pinyin) is widely used for the romanization of Chinese, that's why we should use "ü", since there are no references to support to use "v".
First of all, according to the guide of vndb, it seems that non-ISO basic-Latin-alphabet isn't forbidden. So we can use "ü".
Secondly, if ISO basic Latin alphabet was only allowed to use in vndb, I would recommend to use "u" (e.g. 女→nü→nu) or "yu" (e.g. 女→nü→nyu)[1]. See another example, café→cafe. As you can see, we always remove the diacritic of a letter.
Finally, the letter "ü" can't be found on US English QWERTY keyboard layout, but we CAN type it on other way, can't we? So why not use the correct letter?

References:
[1] link#Last modified on 2018-01-08 at 15:43
#11 by bunny1ov3r
2018-01-08 at 19:42
@10
你跟他直接说中文就好了,wyq的英文不是很6的..而且我感觉你还是没理解他的意思,其实很简单
1.v不会造成误解/阅读困难
2.输入ü很麻烦(确实,你百度一下怎么输入它,最简单的办法是从搜狗拼音的特殊符号里找)

我感觉这个网站上大多数汉语编辑者都会持有相同意见,当然你可以选择不听,结果大概是edit war吧

还有一点我早就想说了,你一个讨论只跟汉语条目有关的帖子,只用英文来阐述你的观点,其实大大的不妥,这里很多辛勤的汉语编辑者都不怎么会英文的,平常也不会来逛论坛

你可以去找一些最近编辑过的中文条目,查看历史是哪位用户修改的,再去他们的主页询问他们的意见,要是大多数人都同意了,我也无话可说。在这个问题定下来之前,不要瞎比改,你先把你那些改过的都改回来

google translated the meaning of above paragraph below, just for the record.
---------------
And I feel you still did not understand his meaning, in fact, very simple
1.v will not cause misunderstanding / reading difficulties
2. Enter ü very troublesome (indeed, how do you enter it Baidu, the easiest way is to find a special symbol from Sogou Pinyin, which is not easy at all)

I feel most Chinese editors on this site will hold the same opinion, of course, you can choose not to listen, the result is probably edit war

Another point I have long wanted to say, you talk about a topic with only Chinese entries, only English to explain your point of view, in fact, a lot of wrong, where many hard-edged Chinese editors are not how English, Normally will not visit the forum

You can go to find some recently edited Chinese entries to see which user history is modified, then go to their home page to ask their opinion, if most people agree, I have nothing to sayLast modified on 2018-01-08 at 20:20
#12 by rampaa
2018-01-08 at 20:53
I know nearly nothing about Chinese so maybe I am not the one to talk. But I think that "typing ü is too hard" argument doesn't work, like, not at all.

I don't have "ž" on my keyboard either, so should we change Boží Skript's name too? I don't have a "á" either, so should we change the name of Maido Mánie? I don't have a "ű" on my keyboard either, does that mean we should change the name of Bűnös Világ so I can search for it with a "standard" keyboard? I don't have a "ä" either, should we change the name of Bernd und das Rätsel um Unteralterbach? I can go on and on but the point should be pretty obvious by now. Sure, they are not products of "romanization". But if we were caring about the ease of search with a "standard" keyboard, then we wouldn't let those titles be. Yet, the guidlines clearly says we should. So I believe a character being non-ASCII should not matter.

(Kinda unrelated. I have "ü" on my keyboard. I'm kinda surprised that Chinese keyboards don't have it even though Pinyin uses it.)

Also, it seems like Ü = alt+0220 and ü = alt+0252 on Windows. For people who are interested in Chinese VNs but don't have Ü/ü on their keyboard, it shouldn't be too hard to memorise.Last modified on 2018-01-08 at 21:04
#13 by bunny1ov3r
2018-01-08 at 21:19
dude, you realize that pinyin is not chinese, right? It's not part of the language. It's a phonogram system meant to sound out Chinese. it's very different from your examples because those are where the language itself uses these special characters. At the core it is because Chinese is a pictograph language that is fundamentally different from the majority of other languages.

I also think people who don't look up Chinese releases should avoid giving input on this thread. Because this topic is very specifically about a use of a special character only in context of pinyin, and not anywhere else. People who don't understand the full context of this discussion only serve to confuse the topic, and it doesn't concern you guys anyways.Last modified on 2018-01-08 at 21:27
#14 by rampaa
2018-01-08 at 21:24
I know, I've already said that those examples are not products of romanisation. But my point was, ease of search with a standard keyboard isn't important on VNDB as is. Sorry if I wasn't clear enough.

Also sorry for giving an input about something I don't know. Though I honestly think my points were fair. Typing ü isn't even as hard as you make it out to be.Last modified on 2018-01-08 at 21:27
#15 by bunny1ov3r
2018-01-08 at 21:28
What I am saying is, since this topic doesn't concern people who don't look up Chinese releases in anyways, we should let Chinese users on this site decide.

And despite your argument that ease of search is not important on vndb, it is to others. A wiki's job is not just to record, but also so that people who want to know about the information can search it up. It is especially relevant here for a couple of reasons. One is that sometimes a Chinese release have original language title as the main title, and the Chinese subtitle in pinyin. In this case searching the title using pinyin becomes important. The other issue is that one can't search simplified chinese title using traditional Chinese on this site, nor vice versa. So searching by pinyin here may be the easier route for certain people if that is the case.

Whether typing a special letter is easy is a subjective opinion that is very much dependent on one's experience. Most Chinese have never typed a special character, thus finding it hard and troublesome is not incomprehensible, no?

Even OP, despite differing opinions between he and I, acknowledged my argument as major factors that made him think twice . The only other reply (#9 in spoilers) from a Chinese speaker also voted no to this change.Last modified on 2018-01-08 at 22:00
#16 by harleyquin
2018-01-08 at 23:36
中文键盘不包含特殊罗马字的原因很简单。V以外全套罗马字都根据英文的26个字母,白话不使用V,所以用V代替英文不使用的读音不离谱。

通用拼音如何用键盘打字的方式我不熟悉,但是本站熟悉中文的游客应该知道V到底代表什么意思和读音。干脆为了满足超级挑剔细节的老外游客做出画蛇添足的工作确实是很无聊的行动。

老实说,找中文作品的汉族游客一般通过中文汉字进行搜查。简体繁体的差别可以使用转换字体的软件克服这种小问题。汉语拼音方便老外找中文作品,但是V的使用问题其实对于熟悉中文的游客无所谓。

I've given my opinion on this matter above. Google translate it for those who can't read it, the rest who can are most likely laughing at the number of errors (it's been a while since I bothered using the language on an online platform).

Bottom line: keep V and ensure all original language titles are accurate in both of the Chinese scripts used today. Less hassle for users with standard QWERTY keyboards who don't memorise the keyboard shortcuts for Latin alphabet letters using diacriticals, umlauts and other special modifications not seen in the English language.
#17 by dqwyy
2018-01-09 at 01:00
@11 by bunny1ov3r
当然你可以选择不听,结果大概是edit war吧
我是中文维基百科编者,有一定的wiki编辑经验了,所以当然不会搞编辑战。正是因为避免编辑战,所以我才来这里发贴寻求共识。
你可以去找一些最近编辑过的中文条目,查看历史是哪位用户修改的,再去他们的主页询问他们的意见,要是大多数人都同意了,我也无话可说。
在下不觉得这种问题是由特定编辑者决定的。首先我查了vndb的编辑规则,发现没有关于中文罗马化的规定,只有日文的。因此不管编辑者意见如何,只要这个问题没有被写入编辑规则里面,那么就难以肯定要用哪一种写法,是一种无共识状态。所以我才来论坛这里讨论以达成共识并希望vndb官方把最终的讨论结果写入编辑规则中。
在这个问题定下来之前,不要瞎比改
我从小接受的教育就是aoeiuü,我是广东潮汕人,我们这边的教育是这样的,我也没去过其他省,不清楚其他地方的教育是如何的。但我觉得,依商务商务印书馆出版的《新华字典》和《现代汉语词典》中汉语拼音方案对中文进行转写应该是正确的,所以我便使用ü。
回到一开始的两个观点:
v不会造成误解/阅读困难
我觉得这一点因人而异吧,我个人觉得还是会造成一定的阅读困难的。我没做过调查,所以不清楚造成阅读困难和不造成阅读困难的各占比多少,但我觉得肯定是会造成一部分人阅读困难的,只是不知道这部份人占比有多大,至少对我是造成阅读困难了。
输入ü很麻烦
虽然是有点麻烦,但我觉得既然是写wiki,因为输入麻烦就不用不太妥当吧。我在这个问题上一开始就没把编辑者的麻烦与否考虑进去,我只考虑读者的问题。况且,我个人觉得也不是说很麻烦,没麻烦到那个程度吧。


@16 by harleyquin
V以外全套罗马字都根据英文的26个字母,白话不使用V,所以用V代替英文不使用的读音不离谱。
感谢阁下的评论,我的个人见解是:打字跟罗马化不能完全等同。依汉语拼音方案,v只用于拼写外来词或少数民族语言,因此我觉得不应该用v,或者退一步说,用v不是很恰当。我个人觉得,如果有更为恰当的ü,是应该用ü的。毕竟vndb的编辑规则里面没有要求不能用带附加符号的拉丁字母。假如有要求只能用26个英文字母(例如Myanimelist就有此规定),那么这时候才应该讨论用什么字母去代替ü。
简体繁体的差别可以使用转换字体的软件克服这种小问题
看来vndb自身的搜索系统很不完善,要完全匹配才能搜索出来。技术问题这个没办法,如果能改进就再好不过了,但没法完善也是没办法的事情。由于目前的状况是「女」的罗马化有不同意见,nü、nu、nyu、nv。所以我觉得如果在搜索技术上有重定向功能或者容错功能就好多了。就比如在英文维基百科上搜索「nuwa」、「nvwa」、「nyuwa」都能重定向到「Nüwa」这个条目。
干脆为了满足超级挑剔细节的老外游客做出画蛇添足的工作确实是很无聊的行动。
我不认为这是画蛇添足吧,我个人认为这是一种严谨的态度。作为百科类网站,是要给很多人看的,而且受众是全球的人,所以我觉得还是严谨一点为好。


所以我一开始的问题其实是:「我可以用ü么?」而不是「我们应该用ü么?」。Last modified on 2018-01-09 at 12:47
#18 by bunny1ov3r
2018-01-09 at 02:08
很明显在目前少量回答的中文用户里,并没有明确支持你这种观点的用户,目前来看你也不喜欢妥协。

在没有其他共识之前,干脆这样,以后如果有你新建的条目涉及到这类问题,你按照你的标准,我们也犯不着跟你较劲。别人以前和以后建立的条目如果不符合你的审美,你也别改了。

所以我一开始的问题其实是:「我可以用ü么?」而不是「我们应该用ü么?」。
刚看见这句话,就像我上面说的,你当然可以,如果条目是你自己首发建立的话。但你改别人已经建好的条目是否已经超出“我可以用ü么”的范畴了?答案是肯定的。Last modified on 2018-01-09 at 02:15
#19 by dqwyy
2018-01-09 at 02:14
@18 by bunny1ov3r
那我想了解下你们的立场是「ü太难打了,懒得打所以用v」还是说「根本就不应该用ü」?
如果是前者,你们觉得难打我可以代劳。
但你改别人已经建好的条目是否已经超出“我可以用ü么”的范畴了?
vndb应该没有所谓「条目所有权」吧?(我还不太了解vndb有没有什么特别的规定)难道条目不是人人可以修改的么?我觉得条目并非归创建者所有。所以我个人觉得这并没有超出范畴。Last modified on 2018-01-09 at 02:26
#20 by bunny1ov3r
2018-01-09 at 02:15
根本不应该,因为不仅仅是建立的时候难打,偶尔搜索的时候也难打。

我发现你怎么这么爱钻牛角尖,你改是你的自由,那我改回来也是我的自由,这不是edit war是什么?我妥协一下说我不动你的你别动别人的就成了条目所有权了?兄弟别逗Last modified on 2018-01-09 at 02:26
#21 by dqwyy
2018-01-09 at 02:28
在下也说了,我对vndb有没有条目所有权不清楚,所以才作出上述疑问,并作出推测。上面所有权那句话是疑问句而非反问句。

阁下也可以发现到,我在这里开这个贴子之后就没作出ü的编辑,所以开贴子就是为了寻共识。没有共识之前,我不会作进一步编辑,这一点阁下尚可放心。
我也不觉得这是什么「审美」,我也只是按照汉语拼音方案行事罢了。目的就是为了让vndb更加准确。Last modified on 2018-01-09 at 02:52
#22 by wyq928576
2018-01-09 at 07:31
@#10
重点是拼读和输入。我不会去死守一小撮人定出来的某某方案,规则就是用来打破的。nu是努还是女?yinyu是隐喻还是义女?女用这两种罗马化都很蠢Last modified on 2018-01-09 at 07:32
#23 by dqwyy
2018-01-09 at 08:17
在下觉得罗马化应该按规则来,毕竟汉语拼音是国际标准。拼读的话,nv中的v难以拼读,因为在绝大多数语言中,v是作辅音而非元音。包括在汉语中,v(注音符号为「ㄪ」,国际音标为/v/)也是作为辅音的。
以上提到的nu和nyu两种罗马化是在技术上无法使用ü时才会用。nu是之前中华人民共和国护照上的常用转写(新加坡那边我不太清楚),即略去附加符号,后来因为会和「努」之类的混淆,所以才采用「nyu」。
但目前vndb没有规定不能用26个英文字母以外的,所以在下觉得不用考虑那两种折衷罗马化,直接用最标准的ü岂不是更好?Last modified on 2018-01-09 at 08:33
#24 by eacil
2018-02-04 at 05:54
ease of search
Ease of search is important for a database but that shouldn't be a problem relatively to ü because it's normally handled by the search engine itself. Any ü should be converted to u before crawling the tables and that's why when inputting "zahrad" you can find r6485. So, if it's a bother to input ü, you can still input u, for the same reason you input v. In a matter of fact, I sometimes input words in duckduckgo without any accents and there is no problem with that apart from the fact that it can identify the language of my request as english.
I didn't check though like I have no example but if it works with č it should work with ü.
Btw, that's why I asked multiple times to allow - to be replace by a space but like always, it fell on I don't give a shit kind of ears.
#25 by harleyquin
2018-02-04 at 06:02
Missing the point. 路 and 绿 are completely different but under #24 they would both be romanised as "lu" which is completely wrong for the latter. That's what lv is for since the v is a substitute for ü.

As it stands, there is no official stance on what to do with words like 女 and 绿. It's not a big enough issue to trouble the administrators of a website which primarily deals with VNs in the Japanese language.

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