About The Romanization of Chinese "女"
|#1 by dqwyy|
2017-12-30 at 06:45
|Hi. Sorry for my poor English.|
I found that the Chinese word "女" is romanizated into "nv" in most pages in vndb by most editors. However, according to Hanyu Pinyin (ISO 7098), there is no "v" for Mandarin Chinese. "女" should be romanizated into "nü" instead of "nv".
Are there any special rules for romanization for Chinese in vndb? I'm not sure whether using "nv" is a consensus in vndb or not. If not, could I correct it to "nü"?
|#2 by bunny1ov3r|
2017-12-30 at 06:54
|You are technically right, but when typing on a computer v = ü for pinyin. You won't be wrong if you want to change all of it, but "v" here is well understood by Chinese speakers, and easily typed since it's on keyboard. Be my guest if you want to change all of it, just don't expect future contributors (like me) to do the same.Last modified on 2017-12-30 at 07:01|
|#3 by dqwyy|
2017-12-30 at 07:03
|I know that. But I think romanization should not be influenced by IME. "nv" won't appear on a passport of P.R.China or any other formal occasions.|
Maybe "nv" will confuse a lot of non-Chinese speakers because "v" donates a consonant sound instead of a vowel sound in most language.Last modified on 2017-12-30 at 07:13
|#4 by bunny1ov3r|
2017-12-30 at 07:12
|This is one problem though. The romanization is there so that users can find the release by searching on database. Changing every v to ü makes typing out the title considerably harder (if searching by romanization), as ü is not on standard keyboard, and one has to paste it somewhere.|
Maybe you want to wait a bit, and see what other people say about this, if there are more Chinese-English bilingual speakers on this site that is.Last modified on 2017-12-30 at 07:18
|#5 by dqwyy|
2017-12-30 at 07:19
|Yes. I've considered about this problem. The search engine of vndb is not as smart as Google. That's why I stop editing blindly and start a discussion here. I wish to reach a consensus here.|
If there was a consensus, I would suggest admins to add it into editing guidelines.Last modified on 2017-12-30 at 10:05
|#6 by tyr|
2017-12-30 at 14:49
|The argument that ü is not on a standard keyboard is not a very strong one as most people who don't live in an English speaking country don't even have a standard keyboard layout and that is probably a big part of vndb's userbase. |
I think it's fairly normal for anyone who isn't only writing in it's own language to be familiar with inputting special characters and switching keyboard layouts on the fly. And since Japanese is essentially when editing vn entries, many vndb contributors should know how to do that.
If you are interested in Chinese games you should know how to type a ü. I'm interested in Chinese entertainment and this is the first time I have ever seen a v being used instead of an ü. Imagine transcribing Japanese by using IME typing rules, nobody would do this and it would not only be hard to read, it also would irritate everyone who is used to seeing Hepburn romanization.
My vote is for changing v back to ü.
|#7 by fuukanou|
2017-12-30 at 16:52
|"Maybe "nv" will confuse a lot of non-Chinese speakers because "v" donates a consonant sound instead of a vowel sound in most language."|
All of pinyin confuses non-Chinese speakers...
|#8 by dqwyy|
2017-12-31 at 04:16
Thanks for agreeing with me.
However, unfortunately, many people in China, even some local govenment departments, make the mistake of using "v" to represent "ü". The most common example is the road signs, see this picture.
Fortunately, the department which is responsible for the passpot of P.R.China doesn't make the mistake. The diacritic of "ü" was removed on a passport so it became "u". But now "ü" is converted into "yu" on a passport in order no to be confused with "u". See this news and this Wikipedia article.
So this problem is a little complex.Last modified on 2017-12-31 at 04:21
|#9 by wyq928576|
2018-01-07 at 09:00
|#10 by dqwyy|
2018-01-08 at 15:19
Nowadays, ISO 7098 (aka Pinyin) is widely used for the romanization of Chinese, that's why we should use "ü", since there are no references to support to use "v".
First of all, according to the guide of vndb, it seems that non-ISO basic-Latin-alphabet isn't forbidden. So we can use "ü".
Secondly, if ISO basic Latin alphabet was only allowed to use in vndb, I would recommend to use "u" (e.g. 女→nü→nu) or "yu" (e.g. 女→nü→nyu). See another example, café→cafe. As you can see, we always remove the diacritic of a letter.
Finally, the letter "ü" can't be found on US English QWERTY keyboard layout, but we CAN type it on other way, can't we? So why not use the correct letter?
 link#Last modified on 2018-01-08 at 15:43
|#11 by bunny1ov3r|
2018-01-08 at 19:42
google translated the meaning of above paragraph below, just for the record.
And I feel you still did not understand his meaning, in fact, very simple
1.v will not cause misunderstanding / reading difficulties
2. Enter ü very troublesome (indeed, how do you enter it Baidu, the easiest way is to find a special symbol from Sogou Pinyin, which is not easy at all)
I feel most Chinese editors on this site will hold the same opinion, of course, you can choose not to listen, the result is probably edit war
Another point I have long wanted to say, you talk about a topic with only Chinese entries, only English to explain your point of view, in fact, a lot of wrong, where many hard-edged Chinese editors are not how English, Normally will not visit the forum
You can go to find some recently edited Chinese entries to see which user history is modified, then go to their home page to ask their opinion, if most people agree, I have nothing to sayLast modified on 2018-01-08 at 20:20
|#12 by rampaa|
2018-01-08 at 20:53
|I know nearly nothing about Chinese so maybe I am not the one to talk. But I think that "typing ü is too hard" argument doesn't work, like, not at all. |
I don't have "ž" on my keyboard either, so should we change Boží Skript's name too? I don't have a "á" either, so should we change the name of Maido Mánie? I don't have a "ű" on my keyboard either, does that mean we should change the name of Bűnös Világ so I can search for it with a "standard" keyboard? I don't have a "ä" either, should we change the name of Bernd und das Rätsel um Unteralterbach? I can go on and on but the point should be pretty obvious by now. Sure, they are not products of "romanization". But if we were caring about the ease of search with a "standard" keyboard, then we wouldn't let those titles be. Yet, the guidlines clearly says we should. So I believe a character being non-ASCII should not matter.
(Kinda unrelated. I have "ü" on my keyboard. I'm kinda surprised that Chinese keyboards don't have it even though Pinyin uses it.)
Also, it seems like Ü = alt+0220 and ü = alt+0252 on Windows. For people who are interested in Chinese VNs but don't have Ü/ü on their keyboard, it shouldn't be too hard to memorise.Last modified on 2018-01-08 at 21:04
|#13 by bunny1ov3r|
2018-01-08 at 21:19
|dude, you realize that pinyin is not chinese, right? It's not part of the language. It's a phonogram system meant to sound out Chinese. it's very different from your examples because those are where the language itself uses these special characters. At the core it is because Chinese is a pictograph language that is fundamentally different from the majority of other languages.|
I also think people who don't look up Chinese releases should avoid giving input on this thread. Because this topic is very specifically about a use of a special character only in context of pinyin, and not anywhere else. People who don't understand the full context of this discussion only serve to confuse the topic, and it doesn't concern you guys anyways.Last modified on 2018-01-08 at 21:27
|#14 by rampaa|
2018-01-08 at 21:24
|I know, I've already said that those examples are not products of romanisation. But my point was, ease of search with a standard keyboard isn't important on VNDB as is. Sorry if I wasn't clear enough.|
Also sorry for giving an input about something I don't know. Though I honestly think my points were fair. Typing ü isn't even as hard as you make it out to be.Last modified on 2018-01-08 at 21:27
|#15 by bunny1ov3r|
2018-01-08 at 21:28
|What I am saying is, since this topic doesn't concern people who don't look up Chinese releases in anyways, we should let Chinese users on this site decide.|
And despite your argument that ease of search is not important on vndb, it is to others. A wiki's job is not just to record, but also so that people who want to know about the information can search it up. It is especially relevant here for a couple of reasons. One is that sometimes a Chinese release have original language title as the main title, and the Chinese subtitle in pinyin. In this case searching the title using pinyin becomes important. The other issue is that one can't search simplified chinese title using traditional Chinese on this site, nor vice versa. So searching by pinyin here may be the easier route for certain people if that is the case.
Whether typing a special letter is easy is a subjective opinion that is very much dependent on one's experience. Most Chinese have never typed a special character, thus finding it hard and troublesome is not incomprehensible, no?
Even OP, despite differing opinions between he and I, acknowledged my argument as major factors that made him think twice . The only other reply (#9 in spoilers) from a Chinese speaker also voted no to this change.Last modified on 2018-01-08 at 22:00
|#16 by harleyquin|
2018-01-08 at 23:36
I've given my opinion on this matter above. Google translate it for those who can't read it, the rest who can are most likely laughing at the number of errors (it's been a while since I bothered using the language on an online platform).
Bottom line: keep V and ensure all original language titles are accurate in both of the Chinese scripts used today. Less hassle for users with standard QWERTY keyboards who don't memorise the keyboard shortcuts for Latin alphabet letters using diacriticals, umlauts and other special modifications not seen in the English language.
|#17 by dqwyy|
2018-01-09 at 01:00
|@11 by bunny1ov3r|
@16 by harleyquin
所以我一开始的问题其实是：「我可以用ü么？」而不是「我们应该用ü么？」。Last modified on 2018-01-09 at 12:47
|#18 by bunny1ov3r|
2018-01-09 at 02:08
所以我一开始的问题其实是：「我可以用ü么？」而不是「我们应该用ü么？」。刚看见这句话，就像我上面说的，你当然可以，如果条目是你自己首发建立的话。但你改别人已经建好的条目是否已经超出“我可以用ü么”的范畴了？答案是肯定的。Last modified on 2018-01-09 at 02:15
|#19 by dqwyy|
2018-01-09 at 02:14
|@18 by bunny1ov3r|
但你改别人已经建好的条目是否已经超出“我可以用ü么”的范畴了？vndb应该没有所谓「条目所有权」吧？（我还不太了解vndb有没有什么特别的规定）难道条目不是人人可以修改的么？我觉得条目并非归创建者所有。所以我个人觉得这并没有超出范畴。Last modified on 2018-01-09 at 02:26
|#20 by bunny1ov3r|
2018-01-09 at 02:15
我发现你怎么这么爱钻牛角尖，你改是你的自由，那我改回来也是我的自由，这不是edit war是什么？我妥协一下说我不动你的你别动别人的就成了条目所有权了？兄弟别逗Last modified on 2018-01-09 at 02:26
|#21 by dqwyy|
2018-01-09 at 02:28
我也不觉得这是什么「审美」，我也只是按照汉语拼音方案行事罢了。目的就是为了让vndb更加准确。Last modified on 2018-01-09 at 02:52
|#22 by wyq928576|
2018-01-09 at 07:31
重点是拼读和输入。我不会去死守一小撮人定出来的某某方案，规则就是用来打破的。nu是努还是女？yinyu是隐喻还是义女？女用这两种罗马化都很蠢Last modified on 2018-01-09 at 07:32
|#23 by dqwyy|
2018-01-09 at 08:17
但目前vndb没有规定不能用26个英文字母以外的，所以在下觉得不用考虑那两种折衷罗马化，直接用最标准的ü岂不是更好？Last modified on 2018-01-09 at 08:33
|#24 by eacil|
2018-02-04 at 05:54
ease of searchEase of search is important for a database but that shouldn't be a problem relatively to ü because it's normally handled by the search engine itself. Any ü should be converted to u before crawling the tables and that's why when inputting "zahrad" you can find r6485. So, if it's a bother to input ü, you can still input u, for the same reason you input v. In a matter of fact, I sometimes input words in duckduckgo without any accents and there is no problem with that apart from the fact that it can identify the language of my request as english.
I didn't check though like I have no example but if it works with č it should work with ü.
Btw, that's why I asked multiple times to allow - to be replace by a space but like always, it fell on I don't give a shit kind of ears.
|#25 by harleyquin|
2018-02-04 at 06:02
|Missing the point. 路 and 绿 are completely different but under #24 they would both be romanised as "lu" which is completely wrong for the latter. That's what lv is for since the v is a substitute for ü.|
As it stands, there is no official stance on what to do with words like 女 and 绿. It's not a big enough issue to trouble the administrators of a website which primarily deals with VNs in the Japanese language.
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