Suspicious voting behavior reporting thread

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#26 by dunnymeister
2018-06-20 at 04:45
< report >Is there a reason that votes are permitted for unreleased games?
#27 by anonymous
2018-06-20 at 07:09
< report >#26 They aren’t.
#28 by phantasm
2018-06-21 at 02:02
< report >A 10/10 vote. link
unreleased + no trial.Last modified on 2018-06-21 at 02:02
#29 by mutsuki
2018-06-21 at 03:17
< report >#27, I think the poster means why doesn't the system automatically not allow voting until the voting criteria have been met. The answer is that it's probably too difficult to code, not enough time to code it or that there are more pressing issues to fix.
#30 by eacil
2018-06-21 at 03:50
< report >No, it's a way to blacklist those who don't play by the rules. You could force them to wait for a VN to be released but their votes would still be a joke, and what would prevent them from voting anything on released VN anyway? Like that, you can spot cheaters and filter them.
#31 by mutsuki
2018-06-21 at 04:25
< report >#30, isn't that kinda dodgy territory if we're now actively judging the value of the votes instead of just removing the ones obviously cheating? There are loads of users who vote on hundreds and hundreds of novels that they can't have possibly played, and I feel like their vote is pretty much as invalid as those who haven't even played the game because it's not out yet (ok the former may have looked at cg rips but is that really the same as playing it? Without having played the game it's the same as looking at prerelease screenshots and artwork). If one is allowed, the other is allowed.Last modified on 2018-06-21 at 04:25
#32 by warfoki
2018-06-21 at 12:45
< report >There is a very significant difference: there is no way for us to know that they haven't actually read enough of it to vote. Now if they come out on the forums and admit that they vote on stuff without reading it for whatever reasons, they'll be added to the blacklist as well.

Plus these votes are not removed, they are there, they just don't count towards the average score shown by the site.
#33 by kiru
2018-06-21 at 13:29
< report >It's still bad. These systems like the bayesian rating are supposed to take these "bad votes" into account. By removing them, you effectively change the vote balance a little. But the overall result (=score) remains the same. Unless we are talking about games that get 10 votes, but nobody takes the score there serious anyway.

If you can disable voting on unreleased games, you really should. Less work for everyone involved, with no mattering change for the score.
#34 by thewayfarer
2018-06-22 at 05:21
< report >Um...To be honest, I *want* to side with kiru on this, but I just discover there could be some problems to implement temporary disabling on unreleased games.

It would be a simple 'if' parser coding by detecting if the visual novel has any complete releases released. But this has a loophole; a user could quick-edit a full and complete release with a future date to set the release date to the present or past date and 'then' make an unnecessary vote on the unreleased game. Then they revert their own edit like "nothing" happened.

I could suggest some countermeasures for these like having to add a "lifespan" of the vote for which could last for a few weeks or a month, then becomes permanent and can only be removed by mods and admins. And during the lifespan, the vote can cancel out if all (and I meant, *all complete releases*) the complete release's release date get's pushed back unexpectedly after the release date. (Sheesh, tongue twister?)

But then there's the possibility of any visual novels with a series of "sub-releases" (partial games in one visual novel). It wouldn't get detected by the if parser suggestion I aforementioned... And I have no idea how to think around this one.

In other words, nothing will be changed to prevent voting on unreleased games by implementing temporary vote disable on unreleased games.
#35 by yorhel
2018-06-22 at 05:29
< report >The main reason that voting on unreleased VNs is possible is indeed to catch people who intentionally tried to screw with the votes. And we had a lot of those in the past. I get the impression that things aren't as bad nowadays, and with entires like Tsukihime, it's pretty easy to make a mistake.

@thewayfarer: You're overthinking this. The goal isn't necessarily to make it impossible to vote on unreleased VN, but to make it more obvious to the user that they might be voting on the wrong entry. The current "ignore system" will stay anyway in order to handle people voting from duplicate accounts - the bayesian rating isn't capable of taking that into account.
#36 by eacil
2018-06-22 at 06:16
< report >Blacklisting those users don't have for single effect to purge the overall score but also to not make them appear in the vote lists. Some people don't care for the score but prefer to look at individual votes to assess proximity of taste and get targeted reading advices. Bayesian or not, filtering those jokers are a major gain of time considering you can't, alone, crosscheck casting dates with release dates of every vote of every user you are interested in just to evaluate their base credibility.
#37 by kiru
2018-06-22 at 09:15
< report >^Again, that's only an issue with 10vote games. And those should NOT be taken serious. No matter what. If you want to take individual votes into account, you'd always check if the other votes of that person aligns with your taste, too.

That said, I can maybe somewhat understand that many years ago these weird voters were more of a problem, with a lot less votes in general being there. I'd still say it was probably not necessary, but whatsoever.
As for duplicate accounts... well that's one roundabout way to catch those. I feel like those would still be mostly a problem for fairly unknown titles where it wouldn't matter much though. But maybe I'm undervaluing those scores and there are enough people believing them? In that case I'd rather remove scores from the lists and VN page that have less than 30 votes. They still have their score, get sorted by it and so on, but depict a "--" instead of a number. That would obviously lead to a LOT of these --, but.. yeah. How useful are those scores with less than 30 votes anyway?

edit: Also 30 is just a random number here. Can just as well be 10 or 20, whatever is enough to make it feel like too much work for people to make duplicate accounts and is a solid number for when the actual score says something.Last modified on 2018-06-22 at 09:17
#38 by eacil
2018-06-22 at 10:23
< report >It appears you didn't understand me like you are still talking about statistics when my point was that individual votes have intrinsic value, for plenty of reasons btw. They sure must not be hidden because you want blind statistical significance or are just plain lax when we just had a guy who created 11 accounts in five days. You underestimate the capacity of people to harm. That's not 30 votes who will stop them if you give them carte blanche.
#39 by eacil
2018-07-10 at 09:50
< report >Anonymous on Motoyan Oku-san to Gyaru Musume-chan.
#40 by mutsuki
2018-07-25 at 16:55
< report >Neko Para Extra: Koneko no Hi no Yakusoku has one before it's out, but not 100% sure it's not early access or something.Last modified on 2018-07-25 at 16:55
#41 by rusanon
2018-07-26 at 21:15
< report >Grisaia: Phantom Trigger Vol. 5 one vote month before release
#42 by thewayfarer
2018-07-27 at 01:18
< report >With #40 on this.

Neko Para Extra: Koneko no Hi no Yakusoku still has one vote a week before its release.
#43 by bobjr2000
2018-07-27 at 02:50
< report >for the neko vote I don't think the user is a troll. At least his profile for everything else looks pretty normal. But in terms of voting before released agreed. Just saying maybe ask guy first.
#44 by thewayfarer
2018-09-13 at 19:16
< report >One unreleased vote on Deatte 5-fun wa Ore no Mono! Jikan Teishi to Atropos
#45 by 9ru4ien
2018-09-13 at 22:49
< report >Anonymous vote on Kuroinu 2 ~In'yoku ni Somaru Haitoku no Miyako, Futatabi~ 3 months before release
#46 by 9ru4ien
2018-09-13 at 22:57
< report >again. troll voter? Hara Katsu! 3 ~Kozukuri Business Haigyou no Kiki!?~
#47 by leery
2018-09-14 at 08:26
< report >@44 I thought trial versions were fine?
#48 by yorhel
2018-09-14 at 08:27
< report >The vote was cast before the trial was out.
#49 by eacil
2018-09-28 at 18:29
< report >Anonymous on Black and White
#50 by anonymous
2018-10-22 at 06:41
< report >There are some users who seem to be giving (semi)-low scores to Baldr Sky Dive2 “Recordare” without voting for Baldr Sky Dive1 “Lost Memory”.