|#1 by luther|
2018-03-14 at 05:30
|Like seriously, there's a lot of elements that the Rance series share with Falcom's Legend of Heroes series like an interconnected narrative, expansive world building, lots of interesting characters from each game and meeting each other, references up the wazoo, powerlevels etc. The only differences I can see is Rance doesn't have maple syrup pacing and LoH has no sex and rape and all that fun stuff.|
|#2 by bunny1ov3r|
2018-03-14 at 05:54
|#3 by kiru|
2018-03-14 at 08:48
|Yeah. They are literally the same, just completely different.|
|#4 by sup-chan|
2018-03-14 at 15:51
|LoH is an overall mediocre series though. Rance has genuinely great games like Sengoku, 03 and X|
|#5 by encrypted12345|
2018-03-14 at 17:03
|Just from what I've played (a bit of Trails in the Sky 1), the only simularity they seem to have are the extensive world building aspects and the fact that they have recurring characters. I'd say Legend of Heroes's world building seems more down to earth while Rance's world building is obviously more parodic and meta.|
The Rance series also has Rance as the clear protagonist overall, so I'd argue marathoning all of the Legend of Hero series isn't going to feel like marathoning all of the Rance series based of that alone. The latter has a clear beginning and a clear end while you could argue that the Legend of Heroes series could go ad infinitum.
Ys is arguably a bit more similar to the Rance series, but while the Rance series has a clearly defined world from nearly the beginning, the Ys series could just add new regions whenever it wants to also go ad infinitum because of unexplored territories. The Rance series feels different because there was a clear direction and arrival time to the destination as early on as VI even if not all of the details and perhaps not even the destination itself were decided that early on.Last modified on 2018-03-14 at 17:04
|#6 by [deleted]|
2018-03-14 at 17:31
|Cold steel is basically like fantasy setting persona. Certainly nothing like rance.|
They also made tokyo xanadu which is essentially modern setting cold steel and since cold steel was already similar to persona, tokyo xanadu went the extra mile to be even more like persona.
Which again, nothing like rance.
They're all highschool settings with calendars with high emphasis on world and character, cold steel even has a social-link type system where you decide who to hang out with. Though persona makes more use of its calendar system and is considered the superior series, I'd say the cold steel and xanadu are the closest things to persona in the market.
Everything you mentioned that rance may have in common with LOH could literally be applied to so many JRPG's...you're taking basic features of a genre and using it as a means of comparison. It's like saying skyrim and the witcher are similar because they have swords, though that's more extreme.Last modified on 2018-03-14 at 17:32
|#7 by luther|
2018-03-15 at 15:44
|My point with this thread is to show that no other eroge series (maybe Ikusa Megami but I have yet to play any of its games to be sure.) goes to such extent as to connect each arc and its characters together. Usually it's just one or two character cameos that don't really play much to the plot after their initial game is done.|
@4 and @6
Maybe if you just played Coldsteel which is considered by even fans to be the lowest point of the series by far. The other games are far and away from deserving to being called "inferior" or "like Persona."
On the contrary, Rance's premise lends itself to being able to have many more games. The world itself allows it even. LoH, in contrast, looks like there will be a definite conclusion on the horizon. I'll give you Ys though, but Ys 8 may have rocked the boat on that, pun unintended.
|#8 by encrypted12345|
2018-03-15 at 19:29
|Rance X is very ... conclusive. I won't get into spoilers, but it should be obvious if you got the true ending.|
Spin-off games taking place in the same setting are a possibility (Toushin Toshi for example), but they aren't "Rance" games.
Oh, and what you said about Ys 8 is interesting. I haven't played it yet, but I probably will in due time.
|#9 by kiru|
2018-03-15 at 23:12
|The reason why you won't quite find a series like Rance is because there are more negatives than positives. Take Rance 10, a game you pretty much shouldn't play unless you've played several other Rance games before. That's not the greatest idea if you wanna get good sales. This is why most longer running series' make bigger arc breaks, so you can join in easier, and try to even make sure that you won't be lost when you get into the whole thing in the middle of an arc, even if it's not that recommended.|
Alice Soft are a little weird with that. The series has its fans of course, so they can do it. But it's in part because it's so unique in a lot of ways that they can do this for so long. LoH is very different. Doesn't reinvent the wheel all the time for its gameplay. Major arcs. Rather different focus with its storytelling. Different way of using its main characters. There's honestly nothing similar about LoH and Rance, other than that both have a kinda overarching plot between many games. I guess that in itself isn't too common, but long running series' aren't common in the first place. For aforementioned reasons. It's usually just better to make clear breaks and/or just finish after a bunch of years. You have a bigger audience that way.
|#10 by [deleted]|
2018-03-16 at 02:18
|#5 From everything I've seen, Rance is, at least in the earlier installments, a parody of Ys. There's even a town called Rance in Ys II. Obviously the gameplay is completely different, but the settings are almost uncannily similar.|
#7 I mean...at least Cold Steel isn't Dragon Slayer: Legend of Heroes. (I know, that doesn't count. But still.)
|#11 by encrypted12345|
2018-03-16 at 02:36
|@9 True. Alicesoft is probably only crazy enough to do that because it's a (relatively) small company that seems to have idealistic people in its top ranks. I'm not expecting them to do anything like this ever again, though the occasional trilogy would be neat enough.|
@10 There are a lot of similarities here or there, complete with a floating island, and the technological level is about the same, but the way the world works (magic system, religion, higher deities and such) are very different. For example, the continent the Rance series takes place on explicitly has stuff like levels and skills, while the Ys series only has them as a gameplay mechanic rather than a world building mechanic. The former is the way it is because it is more obviously a parody, while the Ys series takes itself seriously.
|#12 by sup-chan|
2018-03-17 at 14:10
I've played the Trails trilogy, Cold Steel I&II and the Zero translation.
They're mostly very subpar games that take forever to get good. You can say that it has inmense amounts of dialog (which they do) giving lots of information about the world the story develops in, but the content, story and characters themselves, even with all of that, aren't particularly special or memorable. I think the only character I liked, out of all those games, is Estelle, the rest are either just boring or walking cliches done a gazillion times already. Cold Steel is bottom of the barrel, agreed, the dialog is even more unbearable than in the new Persona games, but the other games aren't such a massive step forward either, and the gameplay, while it has barely evolved that much, is done the best in their newest iteration.
That being said, the series has good music and some good character moments here and there, but that's about it (sometimes they nail it, others is just incredible cheesy). My problem with LoH comes from the fact that anything they try to achieve in a 150 hours trilogy, a single solid game of 50-60 hours does it better. Like, FC of Trails takes around 30 hours to complete and it feels like a prologue any other game does to set up the story in it's first 4-5 hours, so for me the pacing is absolutely atrocious and sometimes makes the game unbearable to the point I have to take pauses away from them.Last modified on 2018-03-17 at 14:22
|#13 by kiru|
2018-03-17 at 16:25
|30 hours for FC. There's your issue. NPCs and the little things that you don't have to do are everything. Cold Steel 1 is really good at that, Sky FC a lot less good but it's still why you'd play it, more or less.|
I'm not a fan of the series, especially because the writer is really awful with cliffhangers and twists, making alright stories awful. But there's a reason why some like it. And that's not the main story.
|#14 by bunny1ov3r|
2018-03-17 at 18:31
|Wow, I've never seen so many LoH haters together in one place. I've always thought of it as one of the best story-oriented JRPGs in recent times. I haven't played a lot. Persona 5 was decent (at 8/10). The Tales series has some alright gameplay but pretty cliched story and characters. And don't even mention FF XII that people seem to hold in high regard. It was awful in characters, story, and even gameplay. Dragon Age also seem to be highly rated, but I couldn't get past the clunky isometric battle system. |
What is a good story-oriented JRPG then (plz don't mention Zelda and Mario)? Dark Souls? Nioh? Bloodborne? I have a feeling that these are not what you guys are talking about.
PS: but yeah, trails of steel is anything but impressive so farLast modified on 2018-03-17 at 18:45
|#15 by bookwormotaku|
2018-03-17 at 18:48
|Well (and speaking as one of the few fans of LoH here) Suikoden games are really good, so is the Arc the Lad trilogy, others I remember liking are Xenogears, Xenoblade Chronicles (haven't played the second game), Lunar 2, Growlanser 4, Disgaea 1-4 (haven't played 5), Baten Kaitos (if you can ignore the okay at best to bad dub) and the Shadow Hearts trilogy|
|#16 by [deleted]|
2018-03-17 at 18:55
|#14 The LoH series is starting to become popular enough that it's starting to receive a contrarian backlash. It's no longer about the game anymore, but the perception of the community.|
That said, Dept. Heaven is better than most of the games you mentioned in your post, and the mainline SMT series is better than all of them.Last modified on 2018-03-17 at 19:00
|#17 by bunny1ov3r|
2018-03-17 at 18:56
|Unfortunately, these games that you have mentioned are either ones that I can't access, or ones that I know for sure I won't like. Most of these are not on PC or Ps4.|
Anyways, I'll check out all of these mentions and see if I can play.Last modified on 2018-03-17 at 19:10
|#18 by encrypted12345|
2018-03-17 at 19:04
|Live A Live is my favorite standalone RPG. Rance is unironically my favorite JRPG franchise overall, but I'd say Ys is very good in the story department too. Rather than an overarching plot though, its strength is the strong individual adventures. I tend to like old school JRPGs more than newer ones though, probably because my first JRPG was the GBA port of the original Final Fantasy. The original Final Fantasy Tactics is amazing storywise IMO by the way.|
It seems like the Trails series has severe pacing issues (from the little I've played). I can see someone prefering Persona over it solely because of that issue (despite its strongest strength being its relationship sim aspects rather than its story). SMT overall is known for having the occasional game with a great story. My favorite of the franchise story wise is honestly Devil Survivor 1 because the law vs chaos aspect is more nuanced than it usually is.
@16 Sadly, SMT 4A is still technically a mainline game. 4 was meh, but the spin off is disaster.Last modified on 2018-03-17 at 19:10
|#19 by [deleted]|
2018-03-17 at 19:05
|I am so burnt out of fantasy setting stuff that I'll take anything as long as it's not final fantasy for the 100th time. That's why I may overpraise something like the persona series, at least it's original in the gaming scene. SMT in general too.|
|#20 by [deleted]|
2018-03-17 at 19:39
|4 and 4A weren’t really what I was referring to. I was thinking more about the SNES games, Kyuuyaku, and the Raidou games. DeSu is really good though.|
|#21 by then00bavenger|
2018-03-18 at 00:08
|@12 Why did you play over 300 hours worth of a series you think is subpar wtfLast modified on 2018-03-18 at 00:10|
|#22 by kiru|
2018-03-18 at 00:33
>What is a good story-oriented JRPG
Thing is, this pretty much doesn't exist. Either you focus on story, or gameplay. Both won't work. It's why you play VNs for the story, and Rpgs for the gameplay. The best Rpgs are aware of this and focus more on bringing something that is fun, rather than trying to tell some special story while forgetting the gameplay.
Of course there are Rpgs that attempt to tell quite a story, but pretty much all of them fail at gameplay to the point, you'd rather have them be VNs instead. Even the aforementioned Legend of Heroes series. The gameplay is an unbalanced mess. Glaring issues existing in Trails of the Sky still exist in Cold Steel a decade later. In a way that's good. If the gameplay would be really great and could carry the game itself, you'd not want to get bothered by cutscenes that much. But it's obviously not exactly the best thing either.
So, while I'm quite a VN fan as well as a Jrpg fan and have played way too much of the latter, I don't think I can really recommend even a single story-oriented Jrpg. The best titles I know can't really be called story oriented or are really more of a VN anyway.
Oh, btw., strategy rpgs are much better suited for story and gameplay mixes. Comes by design. These usually have little "overarching" gameplay and stay fairly focused on each stage. Kinda arcade-ish. That really helps storytelling, where you just do the scenes before and after stages without needing to worry about getting into the way of any gameplay. This way you can have long enough scenes without needing to worry about overstaying your welcome, while still having possibly great and fun gameplay that's not interrupted in weird ways. It just flows and connects better.Last modified on 2018-03-18 at 00:37
|#23 by [deleted]|
2018-03-18 at 00:48
|#22 Terranigma is an RPG with good gameplay and storyline. It's not impossible, just very rare.|
|#24 by bunny1ov3r|
2018-03-18 at 01:10
A good story is a very subjective thing, I agree. I am also very different from most players in that I hate to spend too much time on the gameplay part, especially since I think most of them have trash gameplay. Personally I am of the opinion that only a small amount of gameplay is good just to experience fighting the boss to get some interactions. I know I am mostly alone in this. This is why I don't play much turn RPGs. It's almost like, the ideal RPG for me is reading a VN with a moderate amount of gameplay, lol.
I guess my definition of a good story is that the game intrigued me so much that I wouldn't mind wasting time on gameplay just to see the story. It happened for me in trails of the sky and persona 5 (both on easy). It didn't happen to me for Rance (III and IX), FF XII, and tales of berseria. No, it's not objective at all. It is very subjective, just like all scores.
PS: Basically if I see a turn-based RPG game that need grinding in order to go through with the easiest option, I drop it immediately regardless of how good the story is. For example, I was almost about to drop persona 5 until I discovered the very easy option which let you stand right up after you die.Last modified on 2018-03-18 at 01:24
|#25 by encrypted12345|
2018-03-18 at 03:34
|@24 Grinding is fun for me. There are games with way too much grinding (Digimon Story games are the worst example I can think of), but it's a soothing activity for me to just grind for an hour or so to beat a difficult boss. It's a delayed payoff sort of thing. I like playing dungeon crawlers like Etrian Odyssey for this reason.|
Rance is surprisingly low on grinding overall. The only game with a clear grinding problem is Rance Quest. Magnum fixes the biggest issues, but the fact that there's an absurd amount of deleveling and releveling involved still bears mentioning. The old Rance games are easy enough to make grinding a non issue (including KR, which is only difficult if you don't know what you are doing). 5D has a strict time limit, Sengoku has a looser time limit that is still prominent enough to discourage grinding, and X is somewhere in between. VI has orb grinding, which can be somewhat annoying, but isn't nearly as tedious as level grinding is in most first person dungeon crawlers. Rance IX kind of discourages grinding by having armor and weapon improvement being chance based (a system with its own set of problems...), and being generally easy enough to beat without grinding, some final bosses aside. I haven't played 01 or 03 though, maybe they have blatant grinding issues.
One thing that I feel like mentioning is that some RPGs are enjoyable not so much because of the strength of its plot, but rather because of its characters. Plot and character are intertwined, but sometimes the latter is obviously the good aspect rather the former. I'd say that Disgaea (mentioned earlier above) goes under this catergory. Persona, Fire Emblem, and Advance Wars are other examples I can think of. Some people prefer plot focused stories, and some prefer character focused stories, so that's why I bother making the distinction. One ero JRPG I adore that is carried by the strength of the characters is Toushin Toshi II.Last modified on 2018-03-18 at 03:46
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