Karen's Ending - WTF?

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#1 by behappyeveryday
2018-03-22 at 09:28
I'm sure in my reading abilities, but still can't understand wtf happened at the end.


First of all while Setsuna was at the island he agreed to get jailed to prevent Karen from unnecessary trip to mainland. He supposed to be accused of kidnapping her which is of course BS.

Why at the end he still get prisoned when Karen was with him at mainland? Why she didn't tried to prevent it in any way? And just returned to Island for some stupid reason? And then he willingly get jailed for something he didn't? "Yes, Setsuna, I love you so much, but I still return to Island and you'll get to prison, but after that I'll await you and meet you as if nothing happened and we will be happy together ever after." If my understanding is right, then this is one of the most stupid endings I ever read.
#2 by phantasm
2018-03-22 at 15:33
He got jailed because the island mayor, karen's father, sued him with "deceiving and kidnapping a minor" which is perfectly legit as far as my knowledge with these law stuffs go.

Yes, Karen willingly followed Setsuna but she is a minor so she cannot truly give consent.

Btw, that was explained by the island's police officer. Don't know how you missed that.
#3 by behappyeveryday
2018-03-26 at 05:36
#3 But he didn't kidnapped her and even didn't deceived in any way, he HELPED her to run away from island, which she wanted herself.
You need to read definition of kidnapping, seriously.
link
Moreover consent by definition doesn't have anything to do with age of majority. By definition a person under 14 can't give a consent to anything, under 16 - consent to sex, after 16 person can give consent to anything (by most laws), but just don't have some rights of a person who reached age of majority. Here the quote.
"Lord Brandon said: "I should not expect a jury to find at all frequently that a child under fourteen had sufficient understanding and intelligence to give its consent."[11] If the child (being capable of doing so) did consent to being taken or carried away, the fact that the person having custody or care and control of that child did not consent to that child being taken or carried away is immaterial. If, on the other hand, the child did not consent, the consent of the person having custody or care and control of the child may support a defence of lawful excuse.[10] It is known as Gillick competence.[12]"

Policeman himself clearly stated what he personally knew what MC haven't done anything against the law, but to prove it they need Karen's cooperation on mainland and then MC declined this because he tried not involve her in the matter.
Last modified on 2018-03-26 at 05:48
#4 by phantasm
2018-03-26 at 08:38
^ In my country(Myanmar), that accusation will pass.

Yes, Setsuna didn't harm Karen in anyway. But he went against her father. Her father opposed the 2 being together and forbade setsuna from contacting Karen. Yet, he took her to the mainland against his will. In my country law, that is a kidnapping(I guess this is similar to "Bride kidnapping" according to wiki you linked).
Even if that was her desire, she is not an adult yet so her testimony would only lighten his charge, not enough to make him innocent.


But, I don't know Japan or your country law. So maybe depending on the person, this may seem like bullshit. But at least to me, I could relate and that was a valid plot.


Also the policeman didn't say his action is just. He only said if Karen can testify, his charge will be lightened. Setsuna told adult to back off by threatening Karen with a knife at the start of the story. Whether this will be taken as "taking hostage" or not depend on Karen's testimony.
But he rejected the advice saying he didn't want to trouble her and destroy her dream.
#5 by behappyeveryday
2018-03-26 at 11:38
#4 Japanese's laws are very close to USA's laws. Moreover by Japanese laws people reaching age of sexual consent at 13-14 years old, let alone any other consent. Basically she could fuck anyone without asking her father, let alone elope with someone.

Policeman clearly said what if Karen help then MC's charges would be basically nullified. Kidnapping is by definition taking someone away either against their consent, OR by using deception - this wasn't either case. Helping someone to run away from their parents isn't kidnapping, obviously. Moreover, if I remember right, Karen is 18.

From what we see Karen just didn't give any testimonies and immediately returned to island - MC decided willingly get imprisoned to earn official identity and to repay for his mistakes. There are no questions about it - just about the fact why Karen didn't tried to intervene with all this BS. Though few months he was imprisoned isn't a big deal, but it will greatly affect his chances to get normal work, it just wasn't worth it.
Last modified on 2018-03-26 at 12:16
#6 by phantasm
2018-03-26 at 17:07
I see. Maybe my country is weird. lol

Maybe kidnapping is a wrong word. "Child abduction" should fit better.

Btw, one small thing, Karen is 17.
#7 by behappyeveryday
2018-03-27 at 06:57
@6 It couldn't be called abduction. I'll repeat it again - he just helped her to do what she herself wanted to do. He didn't forced her, or asked, or convinced to do something. It is she who wanted to do this and he was just helper. And by definition "child" is someone who is younger than 12-14 years (different for different countries). There is big difference between "child" (who can't have any consent to anything, as considered to be without real intelligence to decide anything for himself) and minor (who just don't have full rights of adult and still share their responsibility with parents).

As about age - I'm too lazy to check it. From what I remember Sara is 16, Rinne is 17 (23) and Karen is 18. Or maybe she was 18 at the end of the route, not at beginning? This I can't remember.
Last modified on 2018-03-27 at 06:58
#8 by bobjr2000
2018-03-27 at 07:34
i'll be honest never played this VN so no idea about this ending but conversation seemed interesting. No idea how accurate info is in link but sounds legit so might help.


link
#9 by phantasm
2018-03-27 at 08:51
@7

略取誘拐罪
"未成年者略取誘拐罪(224条)
未成年者本人の同意があっても監護権者の意思に反する場合や、一方の監護権者が他の監護権者の監護権を侵害する場合(親同士による幼子の奪い合いなど)にも、違法阻却事由にあたらなければ、本罪が成立しうる。"

未成年者本人の同意があっても監護権者の意思に反する場合や ..... 本罪が成立しうる。"

Here, I searched it for you.
this is the exact law that was applied in VN. (Remember that policeman said "can be sentenced to at least 3 months to at most 7 years")
I bet you don't need me to translate right ?

How Karen thought about it does not matter. Setsuna took her away from her father, her 監護権者, without his permission. That is a crime.

btw,
Child Abduction
Child abduction or child theft is the unauthorized removal of a minor (a child under the age of legal adulthood) from the custody of the child's natural parents or legally appointed guardians.

Child
Legally, the term "child" may refer to anyone below the age of majority or some other age limit. The United Nations Convention on the Rights of the Child defines child as "a human being below the age of 18 years unless under the law applicable to the child, majority is attained earlier".
Last modified on 2018-03-27 at 08:59
#10 by behappyeveryday
2018-03-27 at 09:15
@7 Wow, I really disappointed in laws of Japan now this is really as fucked up as to put in a jail the female teacher who was fucked by her 16 y.o. student (I watching you, USA). In my country (Russia) anyone can fuck anyone who reached 16 years old - even if you are 50 yourself. I thought what in Japan it is same, but just with lower age. My personal thoughts - both age of consent and age of criminal responsibility should be about 13-14 years - this is how it should be from biological and neurobiological (in other words from scientific) point of view. Now it make sense why Japanese are so sexless and 30% of them are virgins even after 30 y.o. Law restricts natural sexuality in them from best age to start fucking. If you don't start having sexual life at hormonal peak in 13-18 then you'll have much lower motivation later. Though in women there would be another hormonal boost later at 30-40. It seems I should cancel my trip to Japan, and here I dreamed about "playing" with some 13-15 years old girls while remembering my youthful years. :(( Well, I still have Germany, China and Philippine... And Chinese language is very similar, in some places even simpler than Japanese.

@9 I see, it means there are big difference between laws in USA and Japanese with later are more conservative and backward. But if we return to discussion about the game, then it was rather Karen who abducted Setsuna - because it was HER who steal the boat, take initiative and wanted to run away from the island. So what you understand I give you example. Girl wants to run away from the home - she stole the keys to car of her father, but she couldn't control the car so she asked someone to drive the car instead of her. This couldn't be considered as abduction logically, isn't? Though with fucked up laws of Japan it is really possible... BTW based on the link from @7 we can consider Setsuna as a minor, lol. And they even could be both imprisoned, if Setsuna did have parents who disapproved their actions. XD
Last modified on 2018-03-27 at 09:33
#11 by phantasm
2018-03-27 at 09:33
@10

<< it was rather Karen who abducted Setsuna - because it was HER who steal the boat >>

That part was also addressed in VN. The policeman knew that it was Karen who stole the boat. But in this case, it became 親告罪.
But naturally, her father didn't press the charge.
Last modified on 2018-03-27 at 09:34
#12 by behappyeveryday
2018-03-27 at 09:38
@11 Of course I remember that - this was to answer a question who was initiator of the process. BTW from what I googled in your country age of consent is 14-15 as well. But it should be something similar to Japanese laws, isn't?Last modified on 2018-03-27 at 09:39
#13 by phantasm
2018-03-27 at 09:50
Yes, very similar to japan. Or rather, I think we are worst.
In Myanmar, having sex before marriage(no matter the age) is considerable a shameful act and depending on the situation, woman can sue her male partner if he engage in such act but doesn't plan to marry her.
Also non-married couple living together for long period is a crime.
#14 by behappyeveryday
2018-03-27 at 10:00
@13 Wow, I'm glad I was born in Russia because my sexual urges really can't be satisfied with just one girl. After all we live in era of contraception so there no real reasons to forbid sexual freedom.
#15 by 22144418
2018-08-18 at 13:34
the anime made this a lot easier it seems rinne just takes him from interrogation from the return from the mainland and end of story...
#16 by pendelhaven
2018-08-18 at 15:44
Now it make sense why Japanese are so sexless and 30% of them are virgins even after 30 y.o. Law restricts natural sexuality in them from best age to start fucking.

Heh.

even if for argument's sake let's say that the law is quite friendly with sex and not with that retarded law that you described, there's still another wall to pass and its called the taboo. even if its legal to fuck a 13 y.o. girl that doesn't mean the stigma/taboo will be gone as well. your peers will see you as disgusting predator pedo and that can be enough reason to abstain from sex. no 6-digit earning guy would want a chick that's about to reach her expiration date, but maybe this is just me talking. maybe I'm just being bias. Surely the laws can't possibly get any worse than this, right?Last modified on 2018-08-18 at 15:44
#17 by surferdude
2018-08-18 at 20:56
Unfortunately, most things can ALWAYS get worse.
#18 by pendelhaven
2018-08-23 at 07:15
@17 late reply but if its not obvious to you yet, that was meant to trigger a death flag

Surely the laws can't possibly get any worse than this, right?
#19 by playcool92
2018-10-15 at 10:00
Finishing this route last night, while not as much, I agree with OP PoV.
Underaged or not, I dont think that counts has kidnapping and it was kinda fucked up.
#20 by narcosis
2018-10-16 at 08:33
Setsuna was charged mainly with stealing the boat AND "kidnapping" Karen to mainland, which both went against her father's will. Karen can't do a thing, because she's still a minor by japanese laws. Her testimony can at most lighten the charges, but it will not make him innocent.

"Returned to Island for no apparent reason" is a silly conjecture, when she's still under her father's care. She simply had no other choice than follow Moritsugu and now she even most possibly also felt guilty for causing Setsuna to be jailed. Her childish behaviour backfired in the end and even Setsuna's straightforward kindness couldn't help it.

All that's left for her is to peacefully admit to mistakes and wait for Setsuna's discharge, which she does. She still leaves for mainland to study, which is exactly what she wanted.
#21 by behappyeveryday
2018-11-06 at 06:37
@20 From "research" people done in comments we could see what things what happened could be considered as something possible with Japanese laws. But it doesn't mean what we should accept it as something normal. By same Japanese laws MC could be imprisoned for having sex with any of heroines (for being "immoral"), it wouldn't be nice for an ending, I assume.
#22 by rey777
2019-01-04 at 16:19
@21 the VN is all age so it doesn't apply here. I've only read Karen route and there's no H scene or implicit H scene in it.

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