Removing a tag?

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#1 by beliar
2018-05-20 at 15:53
Is there some way to actually remove a tag, rather than just downvote it?
I'm asking, because it seems some uninformed people voted for an RPG Maker tag for Shounen to Chijo Oneesan-tachi no Shiawase H na Apaato Kurashi. Even though I have downvoted it, the tag is still at 1.5 strength. The thing is, the game was made in WolfRPG engine and not in RPG Maker. The engines are different, but look visually similar, thus it's easy to see where the confusion comes from.
Additionally, I have noticed that someone has been tagging all RPG Maker games with an RPG tag, which is completely incorrect in many cases, where the games are pure VNs or VN/adventure hybrids made in RPG Maker.Last modified on 2018-05-20 at 19:20
#2 by yorhel
2018-05-20 at 15:58
Removing a tag is something you'll probably not want to do in such a case, when anyone could just re-add it. There is a system where a tag moderator can force their own tag vote to be the only relevant vote, so you could force it at -3.

But as we don't have very active tag moderators at the moment, I've just added you and dk382 to that list.
#3 by beliar
2018-05-20 at 16:04
Thank you, oh honoured sensei! I'll try not to disappoint you. :-)
#4 by dk382
2018-05-20 at 19:14
Ooh, thank you! I will use this power responsibly. I can't promise that I will be terribly active (as I haven't been too active a db mod either lately) but I will try to do things when I can. Are there any moderation guidelines I should be following?
#5 by yorhel
2018-05-20 at 19:22
If you're going to edit tags, heed the 'WARNING's in the edit form. Some of those actions are seriously destructive (which is why it's a separate permission from dbmod).

Apart from that, warfoki was the last person to have a good view of how the tags ought to be moderated. Perhaps he can chip in with a few guidelines.
#6 by warfoki
2018-05-21 at 01:11
I have been doing zilch on the site for about a year now because I'm a lazy piece of shit, and I'm still regarded as any form of expert on anything VNDB related? That's somewhat surprising... Personally I'm surprised that I haven't been kicked from my mod position a log time ago. Not that I'm complaining, but still, considering my inactivity it wouldn't have been surprising the least.

With that being said, I did kinda run the tag and trait moderation alone for quite a while. So on that note:

1) Always play devil's advocate, no exceptions. The first thing you should look at with any new submission is not how good of an idea it is, but how can it be misapplied. A tag/trait can be great in theory, but if it's not specific enough, if the name is not descriptive enough, it'll be misused to hell and back and removing a tag or trait is always a pain. Especially traits, as, unless this has changed, deleting a trait does not remove it form the character profiles, you'll have to bug Yorhel to run a script for that. Which meant that I rather left useless / problematic traits in the past than to do this, since I felt bad about bugging Yorhel with it on a regular basis. I wanted to do a second round of tag and trait overhaul after the main changes were done so I could clean up the remaining mess, but I kinda got burned out before I got to it.

2) Nobody reads descriptions. If a tag or trait has a generic name, but the description specifies the usage beyond what the name would imply, change it or deny it, otherwise it'll be misused to hell and back, I guarantee it. (As a rule of thumb: if the tag/trait relies on examples to make sense and cannot be defined by a couple of descriptive sentences, throw it out.) That's what made the first set of overhauls necessary (and would kinda require another set for a final cleanup). And believe me, you do NOT want to do that. It took 6+ hours a day for several weeks to write up everything, catalogue the changes, talk it through with the userbase and actually apply it.

3) We have rules on tags / traits not being overly specific, but no actual exact measurements on what is "too vague" or "too specific". Personally I have always been a lot more lenient with erotic tags and traits, because everything is a fetish for someone and because quite frankly over half of our entries has sexual content and a good chunk of that is outright porn. So a tag/trait for a fringe sexual fetish is a lot more likely to get used then say, a tag for a specific obscure pet. With that being said my usual practice is when in doubt, ask for examples. So if someone want to tag some obscure shit you have no idea of, ask them to give you 5 examples. If they can't, it's probably safe to throw the thing out.

4) Err on the side of caution. If you are really not sure about a tag or trait, deny it. If there is an actual reason to have the tag or any amount of demand, people (usually lead by the one who submitted the tag) will come forward and ask you to reconsider, going out their way to prove the need for the tag, essentially doing the research if the tag is needed or not for you. Beliar should be very familiar with this tactic, as I used it with some of his tag submissions quite often. :P (And if nobody cares that you denied that tag/trait, chances are it was unnecessary anyway.)

5) You can make new tags / traits without having it "reviewed" by anyone. Both of you have been active tagging stuff for years, so I probably don't have to say this, but sometimes the tag you just came up with either already exists and just needs a bit of edit to fit what you need or not really necessary. If you change already existing stuff, especially if you reorganize entire tag / trait trees, always, ALWAYS run it by someone else familiar with the workings of the site. Personally I talked all of the changes I ever suggested through with Gabe, as we are irl friends. And the changes I ended up doing were the better for it.

6) Do not let old tags stay in the queue forever. This is something I'm very much guilty of and let me tell you: every time I left things in there thinking that I'll come up with a solution about it later, I never have. You are not going to be smarter about what to do with it a week down the line, so might as well deal with it right now.

7) This is going to sound elitist as fuck, but you have been doing the entire tagging business longer and more activelly than the overwhelming majority of the users active on the discussion boards. Chances are you are right over some noname random Joe who has 3 edits and 23 tags under his belt. Have some confidence in whatever you are proposing. The main reason why I got burned out is not that I had to organise things, I actually like doing that. It's that I wanted to appease absolutely everyone, so I asked out the opinion of the userbase on every non-trivial change and if somebody said that my idea is not good, I stopped applying my solutions and asked for more input, asked for alternative solutions, which usually ended up with the thread being filled with a boatload of different ideas, nobody compromising on anything and me not daring to go through with any of the changes, fearing that I would be accused of abusing my mod rights and not caring about the opinion of others. A lot of potential changes died like this, with their discussion threads forgotten. I mean, sure, consider input and criticism, but don't use it as an excuse for inaction. You can't satisfy everyone, that's just how the cookie crumbles. And yeah, if it wouldn't be obvious, I did terribly with this.

Well, that's all from the top of my head.Last modified on 2018-05-21 at 01:16
#7 by yorhel
2018-05-21 at 08:50
The fact that you just wrote all of that from the top of your head reinforces the fact that you're still the expert on this topic, despite the inactivity. That doesn't really paint a good picture about the state of tags/traits moderation, but I am fully to blame for that. It's been pretty obvious for a long time that there is a moderation gap on that part of the site, and all I have done is wait for a clone of warfoki to step up. Which is, of course, unlikely to happen. There really aren't a great many people willing and capable to take on such an intensive (and, I presume, unrewarding) job. I've been hesitant to throw more responsibilities on other mods for fear of overworking people, since there's literally nothing worse than losing good people.

(Talking about being an expert on a topic, things are actually much worse than you paint it. I haven't really been involved in the editing and moderation part for close to 7 years, and yet I'm supposed to have the final say in everything. You wouldn't believe how reliant this site is on a very small group of moderators. We could totally use a better admin :-)

As for tag moderation tips:
since I felt bad about bugging Yorhel with it on a regular basis.
Don't worry about this. I have the script now and can run it whenever. I may be a lazy ass, but I'm still available for help.


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