Best Starter Visual Novel

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Best Starter Visual Novel

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#76 by palas
2018-06-07 at 14:00
What a ridiculous statement. What's bad about DDLC memes or Nekopara selling well? It's not like it's attention or sales that are "lost" to some other game you like better, because they'd never attract it anyway - as indeed they didn't.

I'm not having any of this elitist bullshit.Last modified on 2018-06-07 at 14:01
#77 by pendelhaven
2018-06-07 at 14:01
I don't know when the topic became about recruiting normies.

starter VNs = newfags or normies who are still *starting* to enter the medium. I am honestly more surprised that you didn't connect these two together.

popular vn =/= starter vn. don't confuse the two or you'll get your objectives wrong.

@76 you first need to accept that to be an elitist, you have to start from the bottom tier, meme-filled VNs. are there exceptions to the rule? sure. but speaking on a wide majority of audiences (normies) out there, this statement will always hold true. we don't need to cater into each and every individual. majority PR works on the majority of cases. and from the devs' point of view, they'll want to cater to the majority where the majority of the money is. not to the elitist few.Last modified on 2018-06-07 at 14:06
#78 by palas
2018-06-07 at 14:07
Yeah, no - the idea that something not popular is better by virtue of not being popular or meme-filled doesn't hold up. It's an industry we're talking about here, it's entertainment. The more people it entertains, the more you can be sure it did something right. So even though popular VNs and starter VNs might not be the same thing, starter VNs can't, by essence and definition, be not-popular, since then not many people would have successfully started with them.Last modified on 2018-06-07 at 14:10
#79 by pendelhaven
2018-06-07 at 14:32
let me just put it this way

case 1: you're recommending a VN individual by individual. in this case ddlc is a bad choice since it's just... average with cheap jumpscares. it's not going to leave a lasting impression even considering the final end.

case 2: you are a dev and you want your VN to sell. in this case ddlc will take the cake over something with much lasting impression like Saya.

but once quantity comes in, case 2 will have more audience lured into the VN compared to case 1 even after the weeding phase where around 80% of its audience will leave and go to the next mainstream thing. your reach can only go so far, and even then some of them are normies by choice.
#80 by palas
2018-06-07 at 14:47
You'd have to bring in some data to back that up, even if it's true that the fact that DDLC is a VN is not the reason why anyone played it and 99,99% of the people just moved on without looking into the genre as a whole. But even then I'd rather have these people around than people who think the grittier and pseudo-deeper the better.

Nevertheless, I would never recommend DDLC as a starter VN because it plays with the genre stereotypes and that kind of breaks the fun you'd have with the stereotypes themselves.

In this regard, I don't think Katawa Shoujo is a particularly good starter VN either, because you'll get to any other VN expecting the same level of character development that deconstructs first impressions and brings in some empathy. And most VNs just aren't as good at developing characters and relationships.

So this is why I think something like Galaxy Angel, which is made of common tropes but is still its own thing (unlike, say, Princess Evangile), is a good choice.
#81 by being
2018-06-07 at 15:24
Why do you think anything deep is pseudo-deep? Why can't something just be deep?
#82 by palas
2018-06-07 at 15:39
Plenty of things are deep. Saya no Uta isn't one of those things.
#83 by pendelhaven
2018-06-07 at 15:41
even if it's true that the fact that DDLC is a VN is not the reason why anyone played it and 99,99% of the people just moved on without looking into the genre as a whole. But even then I'd rather have these people around than people who think the grittier and pseudo-deeper the better.

you're the one who needs to give proof here. ddlc steam forums is infested with recommendation threads/posts.
#84 by toru-ben
2018-06-07 at 15:42
DDLC has no story to tell.
It's just Moe, but then the shocking truth of... well, genreshift happens.

Deleting files from the game folder is just as gimmick-y and genreshifts, breaking the 4th wall and metafiction aren't really revolutionary findings.
It's just that newfags don't know any better, yet they don't care enough to look further beyond what VN's are.

If anything, let them play something as thought-provoking as Saya no Uta.
The game has a proper story to tell and goes beyond what DDLC does: deconstructing moeblobs for the sake of deconstructing them.
Saya no Uta is different, as in it has something it wants to tell.
And isn't that, what people that show (genuine) interest in narrative-driven games want, aside from the porn?
Rhetoric question, obviously.Last modified on 2018-06-07 at 17:28
#85 by palas
2018-06-07 at 15:57
you're the one who needs to give proof here. ddlc steam forums is infested with recommendation threads/posts.

If that was truly relevant, wouldn't that prove *your* point wrong?

But anyway, how many recommendation threads are there against the 3,000,000 owners the game has, according to Steamspy? If you want to be super technical, unless there are over 30,000 threads asking for more VNs, the point still stands

EDIT: although I think I got your point wrong lol yeah, you're right in that quantity ends up making up for the lack of specificityLast modified on 2018-06-07 at 16:00
#86 by ramaladni
2018-06-07 at 16:14
Dear Mr. palas,
I am thankful that you gave me a reply and that by doing that, you completely ignored my next comment.

I'd rather have a hundred sensible "normies" who don't try to make themselves edgier and more intelligent than they are because they played through some cheap thrills that try to convey silly after-midnight philosophy than one weeb who does.

I don't see what's the problem in trying to have an intelligent discussion on the VNDB forums (scratch that, now I do). I don't believe a horde of new fans who fell in love with meme games, or who play them because they want to be the next cool kid who knows about the very cool new meme after they saw some youtuber talk about it. It's a misrepresentation of the genre that we know and love.

I want to have discussions though. If you love the mindless nekopara clones that came with its popularity, then let's please argue about their good and bad points. Don't see me as an enemy just because I don't like the same games/VNs that you do.

Also, just looking at our stats, I have more than triple your titles on my list, so I would dare to say I've been through more than a few cheap thrills myself. You know, the kind of cheap thrills with sudden jumpscares or with a character who sits down with you for half an hour at the end of the route and imparts some "after-midnight philosophy" with you.

Nevertheless, I would never recommend DDLC as a starter VN because it plays with the genre stereotypes and that kind of breaks the fun you'd have with the stereotypes themselves.

That's exactly what I was talking about on my second post and it seems you decided to completely skip over it. This phenomenon seems to be called "selective reading".

I wasn't even talking about DDLC to begin with either way. My point was that popular=/=suitable for beginners. Please do me the kindness of not making your own interpretations.


starter VNs = newfags or normies who are still *starting* to enter the medium. I am honestly more surprised that you didn't connect these two together.

Thus we shall recommend a bland english original copy of japanese galge, because...? It also tries to do something special/different from the norm, it's more loyal to the genre for it to be a a not-too long eroge with common stereotypes.Last modified on 2018-06-07 at 16:33
#87 by palas
2018-06-07 at 16:33
I completely ignored your next comment becuse there was nothing in it about "fuck oelvns, at least give them a Japanese game".

I don't see what's the problem in trying to have an intelligent discussion on the VNDB forums (scratch that, now I do). I don't believe a horde of new fans who fell in love with meme games, or who play them because they want to be the next cool kid who knows about the very cool new meme after they saw some youtuber talk about it. It's a misrepresentation of the genre that we know and love.

And how exactly do hordes of new fans prevent intelligent discussion? If anything, there being more people interested in a genre means more intelligent people interested in a genre and there's plenty of space on the internet for people to coexist. Right here at VNDB the system allows that - I wouldn't say the same about, say, reddit, but there's over one trillion websites to discuss seriously if you want.

I want to have discussions though. If you love the mindless nekopara clones that came with its popularity, then let's please argue about their good and bad points. Don't see me as an enemy just because I don't like the same games/VNs that you do.

So here's a fun fact - which might not be as fun now that you went so far as to look at my e-stats - I haven't played Nekopara and have no interest in playing it. I won't argue about their good and bad points. But one point I'll never make is that it or any clone automatically mindless for being popular or that it's better for beginners for being Japanese.

Because - and that's a super important point here - even though it's the genre we know and love and its conventions come from Japan, there's no reason for it to stay that way.

I'll recommend Solstice over Majikoi to someone who has never seen a VN before anyday, even though the former has no traces of anime art style, is Western and has hardly any romance and the latter is one of the most quintessential VNs out there.

That's exactly what I was talking about on my second post and it seems you decided to completely skip over it. This phenomenon seems to be called "selective reading".

Yes, in that I selected the bullshit and called it out specifically because the rest wasn't.

Thus we shall recommend a bland english original copy of japanese galge, because...?

So if we take Katawa Shoujo as an example here, then we'll reach the conclusion that it's because it's a) not bland b) precisely, English original. It was made by Western people with Western sensivity in mind, so it's probably more approachable than a Japanese product made by Japanese people with Japanese sensivity in mind. Even DDLC works here, because it plays on what a lot of (Western) people think a VN or a dating sim is.Last modified on 2018-06-07 at 16:39
#88 by bondas
2018-06-07 at 16:45
Again two novels are very popular... Don't understand why.
#89 by pendelhaven
2018-06-07 at 17:04
Thus we shall recommend a bland english original copy of japanese galge, because...?

because it works for the normies, it had made its memes, and ddlc steam forums are infested with VN recommendations. you may not like how normie minds works and why ddlc works, but this is clearly a case that works. Saya or MLA couldn't hold a candle and that's a hard fact. nothing can change that, deal with it.

It also tries to do something special/different from the norm, it's more loyal to the genre for it to be a a not-too long eroge with common stereotypes.

oh please, normies know what tsundere means.
#90 by encrypted12345
2018-06-07 at 17:09
Because memes, to put it simply.

It's kind of funny how after all of this time, the Katawa Shoujo generals are STILL going on in 4chan's /vg/. I really like the game, even speaking as someone who started with Fate/Stay Night and Ever 17, but that's a bit much. I also like DDLC, not so much because it's a good example of a VN, but because I have a yandere fetish

@87
So if we take Katawa Shoujo as an example here, then we'll reach the conclusion that it's because it's a) not bland b) precisely, English original. It was made by Western people with Western sensibility in mind, so it's probably more approachable than a Japanese product made by Japanese people with Japanese sensibility in mind.

I can agree with this. I'm not sure if it's intentional or not, but Katawa Shoujo does have more of a Western "feel" to it, even if I can't really explain why that's the case. It also has routes that vary differently enough and okay pacing overall (Shizune's route aside) even if the art is kind of unprofessional.

As for DDLC though, I think that people becoming interested in other VNs because of DDLC is an accident more than anything else. If I have to guess, it's because they grow attached to the "parody" of typical VNs DDLC begins as before the genre shift happens, and they want more of that parody. The people who play it aren't expecting to try to get into the VN medium, but they accidentally realize that they might like the medium DDLC critiques. The game as a whole is not something you throw at a person who wants to get into the VN medium genuinely and wants to start with a good, beginner friendly example of it.Last modified on 2018-06-07 at 17:16
#91 by lordnight
2018-06-07 at 17:16
I like how this discussion turns from 'what VN should we use as a representative to present to newcomers' into 'What kind of community the VN community should become' ~
Though page 1 replies should have shown some hint already.
#92 by pendelhaven
2018-06-07 at 17:21
nah, the culprit here is yours truly. and I'm loving it.
#93 by ramaladni
2018-06-07 at 23:06
And how exactly do hordes of new fans prevent intelligent discussion? If anything, there being more people interested in a genre means more intelligent people interested in a genre and there's plenty of space on the internet for people to coexist. Right here at VNDB the system allows that - I wouldn't say the same about, say, reddit, but there's over one trillion websites to discuss seriously if you want.

That's exactly the problem and that kind of attitude is what is destroying us as a species. Take the recent events in Europe for example, regarding the mass migratory waves. Is it okay to import a foreign entity into our people when they have completely different values from us? It's exactly the same here. Even if a few of those could contribute to intelligent discussion, it's not worth the risk. Take the example I just gave you; if one in a thousand refugees is a terrorist, that's enough reason to keep our doors closed. I don't want my safe space to be destroyed.

So if we take Katawa Shoujo as an example here, then we'll reach the conclusion that it's because it's a) not bland b) precisely, English original. It was made by Western people with Western sensivity in mind, so it's probably more approachable than a Japanese product made by Japanese people with Japanese sensivity in mind. Even DDLC works here, because it plays on what a lot of (Western) people think a VN or a dating sim is.

The main problem is that we shouldn't be trying to decide (and it's not something we can decide, tbh) the FIRST VN that someone should read. The poll is flawed from the beginning and it should be a multiple choice. If anything, recommendations should be done on a case by case basis. My ex-girlfriend gave a common eroge a read, and she became really bored, complaining about how weak the writing was. Why? She was a bookworm at heart and she was used to reading much more complicated and intricate stories.

My problem is probably that I see VNs as a work of art and not just anime games, but that's my fault for loving them too much.
#94 by bondas
2018-06-07 at 23:09
#93, me too. Not just games, you are right.
#95 by palas
2018-06-07 at 23:53
#93 well we disagree on a very fundamental level then (although yes I do agree the poll is flawed in that recommendations should be done on a case-by-case basis so determining the best starter VN is a weird call)
#96 by thefreeloader
2018-06-13 at 10:41
Sharin no Kuni, easily, because........magic~~Last modified on 2018-06-13 at 10:41
#97 by sakurakoi
2018-06-13 at 11:29
Is it okay to import a foreign entity into our people when they have completely different values from us?
Wanna know how immigration can be beneficial?
Integration!

Wanna know where it is not done right?
Literary everywhere~

Seriously though, indeed recommendation should not just be "[Title]!" but different genre must be covered and described, honestly. Actually being a die-hard fan of a work/series more often than not proves detrimental considering how there is somehow a(n in)famous H scene in VN history with utter significance. Usually when a work is critically acclaimed, it is not really topping any sale charts, however this is only true for mainstream media, games and anime-related media however has not many and truly professional critics (which makes it even more of a shame that one recently died young) of which even less have actually decades of experience with not only the medium (to be a reviewer) but proper analyse (to be a critic).

That true masterpieces are even more rare in this media is of course because other media have more writers, books especially only need a writer(+preferably editor) and here it is even more risky to be a writer than anywhere else. That's why most works (in terms of writing) excel at slice of life and comedy as well as "soft"-drama and romance which does not need deep profound knowledge, research³ and total grasp on a world-building and story where one might easily forget (to consider) something.
#98 by roadi
2018-06-13 at 14:52
I assume this has been said many times already (I'm just too lazy to verify), but the premise of this thread is deeply flawed.
This is like asking, "What's the best starter Hollywood movie?".

The OP was probably after some stereotypical VN that 'represents' the genre (not that VN is a genre, though).
As an answer, one can only come up with an amalgamation of shit and templates, disregard stereotypes and give their favorite VN, or state the obvious:
There simply can not exist "best starter VN" for a more general audience - everyone has their own preferences, after all.
#99 by bondas
2018-06-13 at 14:57
Agree with #98, everybody has their own preferences, in any field.
#100 by palas
2018-06-13 at 19:08
VN is totally a genre though

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