Mini Review

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#1 by behappyeveryday
2018-09-12 at 10:49
I'm somehow surprised this game is here because this is as far from visual novel as any other RPG-maker h-game, or even farther than most of similar games because this one mostly gameplay driven, much more so than original MGQ.

I could say what this is one of the best jRPGs I ever played - gameplay is basically Suikoden meets Final Fantasy 5 and copulates with Shin Megami Tensei series, game took best aspects from classic jRPGs and it is miracle what they could create something like this on RPG-maker. This is enjoyable game with high replayability which could stay interesting even after 200 hours of playing it.

But "visual novel" aspect of the game is much-much weaker than it was in original MGQ. Basically if you just read main plot without gameplay then it will take at most 3 hours. There is not enough interactions between main characters, basically game is based around the fact what we already played prequels, but even new characters have very short introductions. Most text in the game is replies of NPCs and monster girls when you talk to them, not counting H-scenes.

Also don't be afraid of incomplete status of translation, game is fully translated other than H-scenes, but they are better to read in original anyway (if someone even care about them), translation kills sex scenes in most cases because "dirty talk" from Japanese not really could be translated without losing original meaning, which is even more obvious in unvoiced games.

Overall for me this game was 85% about gameplay, 10% about the story and 5% about sex, lol. Also I advice to start from playing in first part by itself (instead of downloading integrated version) because there is different balance in different versions.Last modified on 2018-09-12 at 10:51
#2 by sakurakoi
2018-09-12 at 11:40
First off: Standard tileset 7.8/10, did play again and again after all.

gameplay is basically Suikoden meets Final Fantasy 5 and copulates with Shin Megami Tensei series
Er... this basically tells at least me nothing at all and I have my doubts since it's just turn based, right? And let me take a wild guess (since I also played the original for a bit):

It's basically a puzzle with gimmicks (more than just attack, defend, item, magic skills that manipulate numbers to gain/advance) and not that dissimilar to RPG Maker Games from realTroll except for more combat/puzzles (rather than story). I'm not sure I could bear that for 200h unless it takes that long to catch 'em all (more benevolent than Pokémon!). I do not really play puzzle games and especially not for that long (heck, most puzzle games are "short" or "medium").

I'd rather have 999:59+ in Fire Emblem or play Tales of Symphonia for the 20th time. Eushully makes some good games as well and I gladly play Atelier despite being one who does not like time limits. Also Breath of the Wild is obviously what tipped the scales to "yeah, at least one Zelda is a RPG" so that's now the best (J)RPG of all time. Rune Factory I also love... though why is To Heart 2 a JRPG? Not even the minigames are RPGs but welp, that's a Wikipedia list for ya.

Huh, no unmoving turn based combat except for maybe Atelier? Well, that combat gameplay trucks after all and this is coming from someone who is bad at action (RPGs or pure) and SRPGs I also tend to grind through. Moving>Talking but welp, your choice, I am honestly just curious what one would find so much compelling unless one is even worse than me. Atlas I by the by perceive as even worse maker because the gameplay is the focus (and stories...? Edgy~), RPG Maker Games I only play if I like the pacing or the awesome "graphics" can not be ignored.
#3 by jikorde
2018-09-12 at 12:02
Paradox is nothing like a puzzle game. It's more like Dragon Quest meets Pokemon. It's a class based RPG with standard turn based combat and a lot of status effects and elements to go along with the sheer number of classes and races you can recruit. It plays nothing like the original series other then paying a few small homages with skill names and status effects.Last modified on 2018-09-12 at 12:02
#4 by kiru
2018-09-12 at 12:17
Looking at some of the screens, I feel that this suffers from overload. The sequel has a screenshot where it looks like one character has like 40 skills. Just no.

It's one of those things that's always especially awful with rpg maker games. Zaku Zaku Actors, as good as it may be, is at some point just a pain to play. Your equipment and item lists get humongous, you get way too many party members and so on. Normally, if you have that many characters, you heavily limit what they can do. Be it Pokemon. Be it Digimon. Be it SMT. Be it Touhou Labyrinth. Or even S-Rpgs like Fire Emblem.
#5 by jikorde
2018-09-13 at 01:39
You can turn off skill menus that you don't intend to use on a character by character basis, but yeah there's a lot of skills that don't really have any use because something else does it better or the effects of this move don't scale well at all. For some people this is great but I can definitely see the sheer number of things being a negative.
#6 by encrypted12345
2018-09-13 at 02:06
I do feel like it has way more monster classes and job classes than it actually needs, but it does sort of make it so anyone's waifu can be OP if they grind hard enough. I would argue that the base battle system isn't really anything novel, but the sheer amount of customization makes it fun in its own way. Maybe it's a little overrated, but if you love customization and you love monster girls, I suppose you're bound to love this game.

The story of the RPG version isn't a coming of age of Luka like in the original simply because Luka is more psychologically stable here for a bunch of different reasons. Overall, it's more of a mystery adventure story, which has its positives and negatives. It's not really obviously worse, but it isn't really obviously better either. I would argue that if you pick Illias as your partner, the story at least sort of works as a coming of age for Illias while the story doesn't work as well if you pick Alice as your partner. The latter just seems to be an option because Alice is people's waifu and all.Last modified on 2018-09-13 at 02:07
#7 by kominara
2018-09-13 at 02:32
I played this for a bit, but I'm waiting for a full translation and the completion of the series.

Firstly, the translation isn't "complete except for the H-scenes". There's several bits of NPC dialogue left completely untranslated, and the dialogue the monster girls say when they attack or use a skill is sometimes untranslated as well. Besides that, one of the main appeals of MGQ is the H-scenes; even if the translation doesn't fully bring across the nuance, it's still necessary for English speakers to properly understand the scenes. Sure, you may not like them, but you can't deny that it's why a lot of people love the series so much.

If this is really among the best JRPGs you've ever played, you obviously haven't played too many. Even just gameplay-wise, Fire Emblem 4-7, Romancing Saga 1-3, and almost the entire Super Robot Wars series beat it out. Story-wise, I could name like 20 RPGs off the top of my head that surpass it (keep in mind, I actually like MGQ Paradox's story). It's good, and I might goes as far as to say it's the best RPG Maker H-game, but one of the best RPGs ever? No.
#8 by behappyeveryday
2018-09-19 at 01:16
@2 IDK what you mean with your puzzle comment, but you definitely need at least 100 hours to "catch them all", lol. You never played classic Final Fantasy games or something? All games what you mentioned have some deviations from classic turn based jRPG gameplay. I personally dropped one of the best rated games among Fire Emblem series, imho after Eushully's Meister series amount of skills and tactics seems too low in FE, like in checkmates, lol. Maybe you just can't stay turn based RPGs or something.

@4 This game have class system similar to Final Fantasy 3 and 5, basically all characters have "double class" other being their race and even if their race is weak they could compensate it with right class, basically you could make almost any character playable (though humans suck, but this is somehow realistic and some of them have OP classes which hard to get) and more or less strong, unless you want to create "ultimate super party" your choice is very broad and even if you want to make this USP then you could choose among different monsters / classes as well. So each character can do A LOT of different things and play different roles in the game, so I can't say what you are limited with what they could do.

@7 I can't understand how you could like Fire Emblem more, I played the Sacred Stones and dropped halfway (there is close to zero customisation, playing the game felt almost like playing checkmates), moreover all games you mentioned not really pure jRPGs, they mostly tactic jRPG and among tactical games I played Tactics Ogre (which is very high rated, much more so than Romancing Saga which you randomly brought) and FFTactics and I never completed TO because of how boring it become later on, with unbalanced classes, lack of skills, etc and FFT suffers from similar issues. Maybe if each character in Fire Emblem could get at least 10 choosable skills (like it was in Meister series) then it could be more interesting. Also from what I know Super Robot Wars have basically same gameplay as Super Moon Wars (which is designed as its clone with characters from FSN / Tsukihime) if so then again Meister series is superior to it, imho.

Please tell me any game with more characters, classes and customisation than Paradox, I'll play in it with pleasure. For me more complex the game the better and Paradox is most complex jRPG I ever seen which is why I consider it one of the best and enjoyed it more than even Persona 3, of course I can't say what I played all jRPGs ever, but I completed majority of best rated classical games like Xenogears (which is masterpiece until later parts of the game), FF 3-7, Chrono series ( both games dropped), Persona 2-3, Suikoden 2, etc. By pure enjoyment value only Trails in the Sky Second was better, but more so because of the plot than gameplay. As I mentioned story is a weak point of the Paradox.Last modified on 2018-09-19 at 01:46
#9 by kominara
2018-09-19 at 05:16
#8 It's funny that you'd bring up Sacred Stones, since that's widely considered one of the weakest games in the entire series. I only brought up 4-7; Thracia and Binding Blade have their issues but are still good, Rekka no Ken perfects their formula, and Seisen no Keifu/Genealogy is among the best TRPGs ever made (has both a great story and a ton of replay value due to the heredity system).

SaGa tends to get shit on by Western fans, since it doesn't have the nostalgia advantage that Final Fantasy and such benefit so much from. The story is markedly worse than a lot of Square's other offerings, but the gameplay has a ton of customization and complexity, which seem to be factors that you value. Basically, imagine Final Fantasy II if Final Fantasy II was actually any good.

I purposefully didn't bring up Tactics Ogre or FFT because, though both game are excellent, they have some major balance issues, and I know some people complain about their plot.

I mainly brought up TRPGs because those tend to have the most care put into their gameplay. It's a fair enough observation that most "true" JRPGs tend to have pretty cookie-cutter combat and progression mechanics. Generally, when a JRPG gets praised, it's more for the story or just because of their nostalgia value. If you want a fulfilling gameplay experience, it'd be better to play an action RPG (Dark Souls comes to mind) or an SRPG/TRPG.

I think your priorities are a bit off in the last paragraph. Classes aren't really important, and I'm not sure what you mean by "more characters". Persona and the rest of the series you listed aren't the best places to look for gameplay per se; again, most of the are more acclaimed for their plots than for their gameplay. If you're looking for a focus on customization/complex gameplay in general, it would probably be better to look at a CRPG, since those tend to have more customization and more challenging gameplay (Just stay far away from anything developed by Bethesda after Morrowind and you're golden).
#10 by kiru
2018-09-19 at 07:23
I mean. He likes Eushully games. That should tell you everything. I'm not saying you can't enjoy them, but if you don't see why they are still a mess and crappy, it's pretty obvious you aren't caring that much about mechanics and such actually being good. Sure, them being kinda messy and crappy can make them fun in their own way, but that's like enjoying Pokemon gen 1.Last modified on 2018-09-19 at 07:24
#11 by kominara
2018-09-19 at 15:48
#10 Yeah, I didn't really want to talk about that part. I don't understand in particular why the Meister series is so beloved, considering the boring writing and monotonous gameplay. The fact that Kamidori is the third highest rated RPG on this site shows that there's something weird about the userbase here. I can understand that the system favors translated games, but really? (I know that it has a recency, popularity, and production value advantage over titles like Kichikuou Rance and Daibanchou -Big Bang Age-, but those are also far better in both writing and gameplay). At least Himegari has a somewhat entertaining turn-your-brain-off story if you ignore the fact that it's also the plot to like 500 generic light novels.

I still don't get why so many people defend Gen 1 besides the obvious factor of nostalgia blindness. Then again, the only Pokemon game I actually like is Explorers of Sky, so that's probably indicative of where my priorities are...
#12 by encrypted12345
2018-09-19 at 16:20
@12 Gen one has a lot of bullshit, though the one that annoys me the most is "Freeze the opponent, and you win". I like the future battle systems better especially Gen 4 on with its "physical and special split". Smogon isn't perfect, but it's fun to just make up a team and battle occasionally in its simulator even with some restrictions involved.Last modified on 2018-09-19 at 16:22
#13 by kominara
2018-09-19 at 16:45
#12 I've played a lot of the different generations, but the only one that I actually beat was Gen 5. The whole 'catch 'em all" aspect just doesn't really appeal to me, the gameplay is a bit simplistic (doesn't help that I prioritize attack options so heavily), and I don't like the fact that there isn't really an ending. The game is probably significantly more interesting on the competitive side, but that's not really what I play an RPG for. I understand the appeal to some extent; it's just not my cup of tea.

Admittedly, it's a bit weird that I don't like the series, but one of the spinoffs is among my favorite games of all time. That's just how transcendentally good EoS is, I guess.
#14 by behappyeveryday
2018-09-21 at 10:55
@9 I judge based on average rating score, not based on reviews which are much more subjective which is why I bring Sacred Stones as it was one of the best rated among earlier games in series. I assume you bring tRPGs primarily because traditional jRPGs just not your types of the games, basically jRPG, tRPG and western RPG are completely different genres. And when I say what MGQParadox is one of the best jRPGs it means it is - compared to other turn based jRPGs with battles where you choosing skills in your party, this is very specific type of gameplay which I talk about.

Also I really couldn't understand how a person who brought up Fire Emblem and SRW could critique Kamidori because basically they have same gameplay with Kamidori being more complex and having more customisation in it (also almost all your party members are cute and you could even fuck them, lol). For me personally the more complex the game the better, if you don't like to consider MGQParadox as great then you at least should accept the fact that it is one of the most complex games out there? And of course classes matters, it is always better to have more unique more or less balanced classes with a lot of unique skills, etc. If we talk about western RPGs then gameplaywise I really loved Tales of Maj'Eyal and you could see what this game also have very high rating on Steam purely because of gameplay. As about Morrowind and similar games I can't say what they are complex, if you compare most western cRPGs where you indeed could customise you character, but in most cases only one. Some better games like Dragon Age or KOTOR allow you to have customised party, but amount of skills and classes out there is very limited.Last modified on 2018-09-21 at 10:57
#15 by kominara
2018-09-21 at 15:46
#14 Rekka no Ken has a higher rating on both Metacritic and Gamerankings. The only reason to play 8 over 7 is that Nintendo was literally giving it away for free for a while (still don't understand why they chose Sacred Stones over 7 but whatever).

I understand that JRPGs, CRPGs, and TRPGs (and the occasional SRPG) are very different, though I'd say that Japanese TRPGs are closer to JRPGs than to CRPGs.

Kamidori isn't bad, but it has some major problems. SRW and the good FE games railroad you through a collection of missions, sometimes with a trip back to headquarters after each one so you can manage your units. Kamidori, meanwhile, basically guarantees that if you want to properly finish the game, you'll have to fucking grind the same couple of boring underleveled monsters on the same maps you've gone through like a million times and grind the same couple of resource collection nodes on those same maps. Besides that, the story element just isn't strong enough to keep me going; especially since that's what I play a VN for.
I don't understand why you say Kamidori has "more complex gameplay", since, besides that grid thing, there's nothing here that would make it more complicated than either of the titles I mentioned. Genealogy of the Holy War has a metric shitload of party configurations at the end and the later SRW games let you use points to configure every unit's stats one-by one, besides the obvious configuration options of items and the almost slavish devotion to perfectly replicating some of the mecha. (EVAs can go berserk, the Ideon is ridiculously powerful but can end your game immediately if you use it wrong, etc.). The "cute girls" excuse isn't really an argument either, since both FE and SRW allow almost an entire team composed of ridiculously hot female units, and...if you're looking for porn, go play a nukige. If you're looking for porn in your video game, go play an Alice Soft game or something that actually makes the girls feel fuckable rather than making them like sex dolls but with even less emoting.

There's a ton of CRPGs with a fully customizable party. Sure, most of them are pretty old (Ultima, Wizardry, Might & Magic, nearly all the old SSI AD&D games) but they do still give the option.
#16 by behappyeveryday
2018-09-23 at 13:24
@15 It seems you was right, Rekka no Ken is indeed better rated, IDK why I started from Sacred Stones instead, maybe I'll try the game later.

You forgot what Kamidori isn't just tRPG, but also crafting game, which is why "grind" exist, most of the game you'll need to "redo" already cleared map for 2-3 times, which isn't hard or complicating and actually for me it was more fun this way because you are actually rewarded for completing the map and in FE you just complete missions and that is all, you don't get much from it other than proceeding the story. Also if we talk about more complicated gameplay then lets see, Kamidori has full fledged "equipment system" with a lot of different stats for equipment (while in FE there is no much difference in equip and stats more limited), it have a lot of usable and passive skills (each character have tens of them and from what I remember there is almost no skills in FE) more customisation for characters (three main characters have as much customisation as you could see in western RPG with only single playable character) and basically each playable character is unique. Even with it Kamidori is much more player friendly and player have much more control on what will happen in battles - in FE it depends on random if your character will die or not and you don't have right to make a mistake because of permadeath (from what I remember), it limits you very much, you couldn't sacrifice weaker character for the sake of overall situation, you couldn't predict next action of your enemy which makes gameplay either into "save \ load" if you playing on emulator, or into "make it as safe as possible before doing anything" and then because of random you could fail mission and be forced to start again. Basically we have less complex game with much less player friendly gameplay where your tactical choices are limited.

You mentioned plot and porn, here I could say what even though plot in Kamidori isn't outstanding in case you compare it to top visual novels, but it is on level of decent romantic visual novel (yes, there is actual romance, personalisation, some plot twists, etc) and not on level of typical RPG. For example in Tactics Ogre there is close to zero personalisation in characters, all their interactions are part of the plot and you don't really care about them. And even if you could have some generals in it there is no enough interactions to care about them at all, same for FE from what I have seen. I can't understand why you talking about "sex dolls" here and compare to Alice Soft, lol. It is not like in Meister series there is less personalisation of heroines than in Rance series, difference more in quantity than quality. Also Castle Meister have above average story / heroine's personalisation in it, better than Kamidori or most Rance games.

Also you right about those western games, they have customisable party, but amount of classes and skills somehow limited in them. If you want to give example of good RPG with party customisation then there is Darkest Dungeons and this isn't old game either. But I never seen any game which like MGQParadox have hundreds of classes, races and unique characters each of which could be customised and made into someone useful for the party.Last modified on 2018-09-23 at 13:35
#17 by kominara
2018-09-24 at 00:43
#16 Firstly, some rebuttals of the gameplay section:

-The fact that there's a crafting system doesn't matter; I'm still breezing through maps that I've already completed. Whether I'm doing so for experience or for resources doesn't matter; it's still a cheap way of extending game time. I never said it was hard, just boring.
Excluding 2, 8, and the newer titles, Fire Emblem doesn't let you go through the same maps again, yes, but that also means that the entire game was built so that grinding would never be necessary to progress. Besides that, several FE games also have different rewards for curious and/or good players; FE7 in particular has a cornucopia of alternate missions and units for players who go above and beyond what's required.
-In FE, the weapons affect a surprising amount of stats, though speed and strength are the main ones. You can get a couple of pieces of "actual" equipment and some stat-boosters later on, but the game does revolve a lot more around individual character stats.
-In a way, Fire Emblem takes a very "militaristic" approach to fantasy combat. A traditional skill system is generally absent, though 4 & 5 both have some passive skills in them. Instead, magic users rely on tomes and staves, which are basically just what Kamidori would call "skills" imbued into a certain weapon. I don't think it's really a valid complaint.
-Most of the FE games don't appear to have robust character customization systems, but I think you'd actually be wrong in most cases. You'd be surprised how much of a difference it makes what sort of items you give to a unit and how often you decide to use them. That's not to mention FE4, whose system allows greater customization of your characters than Eushully could even dream of.
-Ah, the old permadeath complaint.
Fire Emblem wasn't made to be played like Kamidori, and I think that, in a lot of your points, you're just stating the differences between the games without giving any thought as to why they're different. The reason why so many FE characters resemble each other gameplay-wise is because, in a playthrough without save-abuse, some of your units are bound to die and you'll need replacements for them. You're basically complaining that Fire Emblem isn't just like Kamidori, so it must also be worse.

The difference is that Tactics Ogre was obviously written with a heavy emphasis on the overarching plot rather than the individual characters involved. Fire Emblem, meanwhile, actually does a lot to make you care about the characters, with both expansive story dialogue and a number of support conversations for the units. And even if that all fell flat, the basic concept of the games is at least engaging enough to keep you playing; FE1's story is barebones even for the time when it was written, but the idea of a massive clash between the forces of good and evil is inherently more interesting than whatever the hell excuse Kamidori coughs up to get you to the next setpiece.

i'm not going to say the Alice Soft is always perfect in terms of heroine writing, and they do rely on archetypes an awful lot, but the average AS heroine is better than the average Eushully heroine. Rance in particular has heroines that might seem like one-dimensional at first glance, but often reveal more interesting character traits over time and are just entertaining to watch. It's not uber-deep ultrarealistic character writing, but it works for the story it's trying to tell. Meanwhile, Eushully attempts to write somewhat serious characters and storylines, but fails to make it either interesting or entertaining. I'd go as far as to say that Minna Daisuki Kozukuri Banchou has better character writing than Kamidori.
And I don't know why you brought up Amayui, since it's completely irrelevant to the discussion, but whatever. I don't have anything to say on that front, since I haven't played Amayui and I have no plans to do so in the near future. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt on that one.
#18 by behappyeveryday
2018-09-27 at 16:10
@17 Well, at least you indirectly agreed what in FE you don't have any real skills and almost same characters. From those two points it is obvious why modern player could like Kamidori more. Also you have controllable map and could choose what to do next, instead of just following predetermined maps.

Overall I think this is more a matter of personal taste here. I don't like checkmates and pure tactical games, I want to see a lot of skills, a lot of equipment and effects instead, though obviously this makes game more complex. By definition complexity means what there should be a lot of things which interact in a lot of ways.

As about characters I think this is just your personal feelings and I brought up Amayui because we talked about Meister series and this is a part of it, obviously. And if you brought up Eushully games as whole then I could say what Ikusa Megami Zero have better plot than any of Alice Soft games (though I still haven't read Rance 9 and 10).

By the way here is thread about MGQParadox and you could even say what our previous discussion is irrelevant to it. :)

Initially I was just surprised how people could consider tactical games with almost no skills or variety in it as "better RPG" and then mentioned what Meister series have almost same gameplay, but with more customised and modern gameplay.
#19 by kominara
2018-09-27 at 17:24
#18 I know it's off-topic, but it's not like anyone's really going to discuss MGQ Paradox until it's finished anyway...

Again, I think you have a very strange and arbitrary view of "complexity". Sure, the Meister series has a lot of skills and unique character classes, but I doubt most people replay it over and over again like many FE fans do with FE5 or FE7 (aside from New Game+, of course), and I could argue that, compared to FE, Kamidori has a kiddy-pool level of depth and complexity.
List of features Kamidori is lacking in or missing completely compared to FE:

- Growth rates
- Any stakes for character death
- Individual inventories for every character
- Boss enemies on every map
- A wide variety of mission objectives
- Significant branching paths (I might be wrong on this one)
- Weapon durability, forcing you to use different weapons instead of just sticking to whatever is most powerful
- Interesting weapons, for that matter
- Weapon triangle

I could go on, but I won't. FE is plenty complex; just not in ways that are necessarily as obvious to a passive observer.

And, you know, if you want an overcasualized TRPG with tons of skills, no stakes, "variety", and boring grindy gameplay, you could just play FE13 onward, where they dumbed down the series to appeal to casual audiences that can't deal with actual tactics. It's always an option.

As about characters I think this is just your personal feelings and I brought up Amayui because we talked about Meister series and this is a part of it, obviously. And if you brought up Eushully games as whole then I could say what Ikusa Megami Zero have better plot than any of Alice Soft games (though I still haven't read Rance 9 and 10).

Amayui is completely irrelevant because I was only talking about Kamidori. I don't hate the Meister series; I just think Kamidori is boring. I actually like Himegari to some extent (well, the short bits I played of it anyway).

I've heard good things about IMZ, but I haven't played it, and I want to play through the first two Ikusa Megami games and Genrin no Kishougun first. But, by your own admission and by checking your vote list, you haven't played every Alice Soft game, or even close to every Alice Soft game, so I don't think you're the most qualified to say that. At least try to complete most of their acclaimed titles before making broad, sweeping statements about their writing as a whole. Besides, why would I trust the judgement of someone who gave Umineko and Grisaia a higher rating than Saihate no Ima, Saya no Uta, Symphonic Rain, Chaos;Head, Air, and Konosora? Honestly, your tastes seem to be almost complete opposites of mine.
#20 by behappyeveryday
2018-09-30 at 12:22
@19 Lets talk about all points you mentioned:

1. In Kamidori growth rates are different for different characters and could be controlled by specific items later in the game, so IDK why you brought it up.

2. If your important character dies in mission then you'll lose battle and should be forced to load save to play map again, which could be longer than one hour for some maps..

3. Mm, what? This system of personal inventory is very aged and other than making game inconvenient don't add any depths. And equipment menu is more broad in Kamidori.

4. Most maps in Kamidori have elite enemies and almost all plot maps have bosses, so IDK why you brought it up.

5. I played Sacred Stones half way and couldn't see it there. Moreover in Kamidori you have multiple objectives for each map.

6. Kamidori have three routes each of which is completely different and have completely different story and maps..

7. In Kamidori it is often better to use weapon which have element which is strong against certain enemy, so no, you should choose different weapons for different situations. And durability is, again, old aged concept which just makes game inconvenient instead of adding the depth and complexity. Yes, it makes game harder to play, in same way as inconvenient controls or interface could do.

8. From my experience Kamidori have few times more weapons and equipments than FE.

9. Triangle system is just rock-paper-scissors game, same with elemental system in FE. Kamidori have resistance system with 6 elements and each character could have any elemental resistances and powers, which is objectively more complex system because it is basically rock-paper-scissors , but instead of 3 elements you have 6 and instead of just one element for each character you could have any elemental configuration.

I assume what you just expected complex story from Kamidori and played it for the story and was disappointed because of it. And when you played FE you from the start expected only gameplay from it and nothing else and you get what you wanted. Also I could assume what you played FE series before Kamidori.

About Alice Soft - I played majority of best rated and most popular their games, why would I judge them by their old or unknown works? Judging by most acclaimed games is enough I assume. As about tastes - instead of judging it subjectively it is more convenient to judge by rating. Though half works you mentioned not really have high ratings on vndb or erogamescape so IDK why you brought them up. At least we both rated Baldr;Force similarly and played it almost at exact time, so you couldn't say what our tastes completely opposite. Rather I could see what you could judge even objectively good works (like Grisaia or Umineko) low when you dislike it for personal reasons. For example even though I don't really liked Symponic Rain or G-Senjou and was very annoyed by some certain events in both games, but I still acknowledge what they have their strong points and couldn't rate them lower than 6.5, in this regard you are much more extreme, to the point of rating one of the top (both on vndb and erogamescape) VNs like Umineko with 2/10, even just music is enough to rate it at least 5/10, imho.Last modified on 2018-09-30 at 18:45
#21 by kominara
2018-09-30 at 17:33
#20 I'm about done with the FE vs. Kamidori argument; it's obvious neither of us is going to change the other's mind and I really don't feel like exerting more effort on this.

Obviously you haven't even played all of their most acclaimed games; where are Mamatoto ~A Record of War~, Oyako Rankan, Toushin Toshi II, Atlach-Nacha, Diabolique, Daiakuji, Rance VI - Zeth Houkai -, Galzoo Island, Tsuma Shibori, Choukou Sennin Haruka, or Rance 03 Leazas Kanraku on your vote list? Hell, that's more than half their titles with a 79 or above on EGS, without even mentioning all the titles with lower votes that still have significant fan followings like Pastel Chime and Tsumamigui.

In a way, if my tastes are only different than yours half the time, it makes your opinion mean even less; at least if they were completely opposite, I'd just play all the games you gave low scores to. And, about the games I mentioned:

Saya no Uta: 82 median, 82 average
Saihate no Ima: 81 median, 80 average
Symphonic Rain: 89 median, 87 average (that's higher than Grisaia, Kamidori, and all of the episodes of Umineko, mind)
Chaos;Head: 78 median, 76 average (to be fair, C;H is a pretty controversial game so maybe it was a bad example)
Air: 85 median, 83 average (equal to Grisaia, and higher than most of the episodes of Umineko)
Konosora: 82 median, 82 average

All of those are pretty good scores (excluding C;H but who the hell cares).

First of all, there's no such thing as "objectively good". I already explained why I gave Kamidori a low score (it's not even that low; 6.5 indicates that I liked it to some extent), so let's move on.

Grisaia is an overwritten, bloated, poorly developed mess, and the fact that it's one of the highest rated eroge ever made shows that there's something seriously wrong with the industry, especially when it's beating out actually good titles like YU-NO and Sengoku Rance in terms of VNDB rating. The common route is about a 7/10, whereas the heroine routes are, from what I've seen and heard, a 3/10, though I might have to go back to complete them one of these days so that I can argue my case properly.

Umineko does have a phenomenal score, but it doesn't excuse the fact that in every other area, from prose-writing to plotting to art (the PS3 art doesn't count), it's a completely unfocused mess. I've written more than I care to on the subject in the past, so I'll just say that I value story an awful lot more than sound and leave it at that.
#22 by behappyeveryday
2018-10-01 at 02:09
@21 I played Rance 6-8 and Kichikuou, as well as Haruka, I just not voted for all the games I played so far, thanks for reminder. And among other games you named there is only Rance 3 and TT2 with decent rating, though none of the games is known for its superb plot. I think this is irrelevant, considering you never played IMZero.

BTW about scores - actually you could say what you gave Kamidori better score than me, lol. I scored it as a 7/10 (back then I decide to score it based on plot, I could give it 9,2/10 for gameplay though) and you scored it 6,5/10, but you have much lower average vote than me.

And there is such thing as objectively (to some extent) good, because objective of any work of fiction is to be acclaimed among audience for which it was created, this is why you could judge by rating. All titles you mentioned wasn't rated too low by me, just lower than average because I disliked it for some reason or another, even though they are not bad. First of all if game is bad then it couldn't get high score on vndb or erogamescape and if it couldn't get high score then I wouldn't play it, simple as this and this is why there is almost no games which I rated lower than 5. Also basically all games which rated high by you I loved. For example Subahibi is masterpiece, I could vote it as 10/10 for first half or even 2/3 of the game, but it really pissed me off how author killed characters I liked the most and how anticlimactic last chapter was.

Umineko is one of the best written among VNs, the only real flaw of this game story wise is how it didn't have proper conclusion and full explanation of every mystery and ending kinda sucks. But most things were properly explained in manga if someone cares. And for me personally original art is more likeable than PS3 version which is tasteless.Last modified on 2018-10-01 at 02:13
#23 by kominara
2018-10-01 at 02:45
#22 An 85 for Daiakuji isn't a bad score, and Atlach-Nacha is known for being one of the best written VNs AS has ever put out. Honestly, anything with an 80 or above is something that I'd at least consider playing.

My average probably isn't too much lower than yours if you weed out the OELVN memege. My scores for most scenario-focused games are higher than average; it's really only with moege, nukige, and OELVNs that my votes start to get a little harsh.

Again, I don't want to discuss Umineko for too long, but I'll go into some more detail. Umineko (Chiru in particular, though I'm not the biggest fan of the first four episodes either) is far too long for it's own good; it feels like Ryuukishi wanted to make a grand epic, but didn't know how to keep it consistently engaging throughout. As such, there's this weird dynamic where, excluding the airport scene, the first episode is actually the best-paced in the entire series; though I might just be saying that because it's the closest it comes to being a straightfoward mystery thriller.

The idea of the "truths" is the first major red flag (heh). Again, it feels like Ryuukishi wanted to make a more complicated mystery, and the only way he knew how to do so was to completely upset the balance of the genre as a whole, which is weird because he spends the entirety of Chiru sucking off traditional mystery and traditional mystery authors, even when it doesn't make an awful lot of sense to do so. ("You see, I'VE READ HUNDREDS OF MYSTERY NOVELS!")

Besides that, the entire thing is a massive cheese-fest (the original art doesn't help) and I think it completely goes off the rails in Chiru; Ryuukishi keeps throwing ideas at the wall with no rhyme or reason and most of them fall flat. There's an obvious attempt to keep the reader engaged with magic fights and awesome set-pieces, but I started to see through them by Episode 6 and dropped the game because it was starting to actively bore me. Reading spoilers for the rest of the episodes, it doesn't seem like I missed much, though I do plan on playing the Umineko Project port once it's released. Still, I don't think my opinion will change much. Honestly, I think it's the worst "serious" plot-focused VN out there (excluding DDLC, which is a whole other can of worms).
#24 by azeem40
2019-05-11 at 23:50
If it bored you not much can be done. Wasn't really a story for you then.


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