Tone Work's 4th project: Tsukikana

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#51 by [deleted]
2019-04-09 at 11:43
This particular work of theirs isn't my cup of tea for more reasons than just the slut heroine so I think I'll pass until I see some reviews. As for the heroine in question, while I find sluts
disgusting, I don't care enough for the lifestyles of others to attempt to change anyone who likes them or is one.

I wish all these simps and white knights that harass anyone who wants virgin heroines would realize that you can disagree with the way someone lives their life and still coexist with them. I'm on good
terms with the few sluts I know irl who haven't devolved into total narcissists from excessive male attention. They know I'm disgusted by their dedication to promiscuity and I know they're disgusted by my
dedication to celibacy. But we accept our differences and know better than to force our own personal ideas of right and wrong on eachother.Last modified on 2019-04-10 at 11:30
#52 by bossybear11
2019-05-27 at 23:47
I agree with #51. Even sometimes life forces you to do the work you don't like, and even they have their own background story from what can be learn. And for god sake, let the author do what they want with their heroine. Opinion and critics all are acceptable but please do it after you read the work and after you buy the game personally...

And i see lots of discussion about non-virgin heroine and dislike of them... really? Are hating non-virgin heroine a trend? or non-virgin something contagious that can kill someone? It's just weird even having discussion about non-virginity because it's not even about your girlfriend or wife, it's just a character in a fiction novel.

And from my experience, girl with circumstances have more exciting story than a normal boring virgin heroine story. It really depends from how they tell the story too. I know that they have their own quirks when you relate with them, but I'm reading because I'm looking for entertainment.Last modified on 2019-05-28 at 00:08
#53 by bobjr2000
2019-05-28 at 03:05
nope its way of world people hating something others like and same trend of telling people what they should or shouldn't like. Can make same argument about rape about fictional character but that is major turn off for me personally.
#54 by [deleted]
2019-05-28 at 04:52
#52 I tip my hat off to you. The fact that you can still find some common ground with me despite our drastically different outlooks on sexuality instead of immediately stereotyping me as some dateless basement dweller and ignoring my points shows that you are capable of true open-mindedness unlike the fakes I've encountered.

That said, open-mindedness isn't always beneficial. I'll tell you right now that my perspective on virginity and likely others' isn't based around open-mindedness. It's all about discernment; a survival instinct that compensates for situations in which open-mindedness can lead to unnecessary harm.

For an example you can relate with, people die every year from grizzly bear attacks. Because of this, the bears are stereotyped as highly aggressive and dangerous. An open-minded person would argue that one should approach a grizzly bear because it might be one of the friendly ones. And they might be right. But they could also be wrong and that person would be mauled to death.

Is it worth that chance? How you answer determines whether your perspective is based on discernment or open-mindedness. Neither of which is right or wrong.

There are many risk factors with non-virgins in long term relationships that either aren't present in virgins or the chances are greatly diminished. I'd rather bet on the dark horse than one that has consistently lost. Relationships are an investment in time, money and emotions. A bad investment here can potentially leave one financially and psychologically scarred with a large chunk of your limited time on Earth wasted on top of it. (This is in addition to my own personal values which further influence my behavior.)

As for fiction, if your local grocery store turned into a car dealership, you'd probably be frustrated at having to drive further away to get groceries. I can understand #30's frustration just as I understood the frustration of NTR fans when alicesoft announced there wouldn't be NTR in one of their titles even though I dislike NTR. They're just venting.

People like him and me want to see perfectly monogamous wish-fulfilly SoL relationships and Tone Work's used to provide that completely but now they pander to a different audience. The logical thing to do is accept that the decision happened but vote with our wallets.Last modified on 2019-05-28 at 05:19
#55 by kratoscar2008
2019-05-28 at 06:10
Well my take on it is: nonvirgins dont offer anything more than a mileage that doesnt counts for anything. Most VNs are about being able to score that one girl that any other male desires, but what is the point of entering a race where some people already took the prize?
Nonvirgings are a hard sale because these games are supposed to make you feel fullfilled by "claiming" an heroine and then enjoy her, if the girl was before in a relationship that means that you must take her every word with a grain of salt. "MC this body is only for you" or "Whe are togueter forever" doesnt has much weight since she likely said that to the previous guy(s) and look where she is now.
People say the advantage of nonvirgins are that they are better at sex. But then i look at characters like Seira A Senga or your average Bare&Bunny sexually confident who manages to make sex scenes interesting while remaining a virgin (Like there is no difference between Mei in Namaiki Youkuso and Seira from LovexHolic, both who madly fall in love with MC, sexually harrass him and are crazy at sex. Mei nonvirginity didnt contribute anything other than cabbage which hurts her appeal)
Nonvirgins only contribution would be they telling us how much she fucked before and how all those other guys compare but the average VN consumer doesnt wants that, only people into realism at which point i wonder why they read VNs in the first place.

Thats my take on it at least, as i have said i dont mind nonvirgins as long as the rest of the virgins makes up for it or the nonvirgin isnt the best looking heroine.
#56 by kiru
2019-05-28 at 06:31
@54: Virgins have way more risk factors for relationships than non-virgins. They lack experience, the biggest reason for failure in this world.

Also, virginity is no price to take. That view is messed up in so many ways and extremely unfitting for anything but very specific kind of nukige.
#57 by kratoscar2008
2019-05-28 at 07:03
Its fitting for most VNs. Even in rape nukiges virgins are more common than nonvirgins just like moeges so its a VN widespread preference.
When i say prize i mean in the medium, lately VNs are made for people to fullfill a fantasy rather than tell an story, the heroines are the objective in this case. Real life is entirely different thing.Last modified on 2019-05-28 at 07:04
#58 by [deleted]
2019-05-28 at 09:58
Most people can't succeed without failing at some point. But here's the thing: I always hear this whole experience is the best thing but if your history is nothing but failure and no success then I have to wonder again at the definition of insanity. I have a relative who has experience with debts. Experience failing to pay them. Would I lend him money? Hell no. He says he learned his lesson and he'll change but he never does. I lent money to another relative who has no history of debts and he always paid me back.

Failure only means something when it leads to success. If you're doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different outcome, then you know what that means. I know the former relative has a history of failure. I didn't know about the latter relative's financial tendencies. I took a gamble and the dark horse won the race. If I lent money to the deadbeat, then I'm the insane one for making a terrible investment knowing his history.Last modified on 2019-05-28 at 10:10
#59 by bossybear11
2019-05-28 at 20:10
Yeah definitely can't judge about this genre from tone work because we haven't got supernatural genre from them or even a non-virgin heroine too (because all of their game until now only have virgin heroines). Though i've played all their previous game, I have a feeling that the character description in vndb got them at the wrong side of what's really depicted from the real game.Last modified on 2019-05-28 at 20:11
#60 by green
2019-06-09 at 08:38
Personally not a fan of non-virgin heroines, so I was a bit surprised and disappointed when finding out about this.

Might still give it a read if I feel like it, but right now looking like a pass.
#61 by kratoscar2008
2019-06-09 at 08:46
Well apparently she only has like 4 set of CGs so she is your typical "best looking girl is a side heroine with barely any content" type.
#62 by ᔕᕼᖇOOᗰᒪOᖇᗪ
2019-06-09 at 11:28
#61 Damnit. It's always like that. And I wish non-virgin heroines were more common. Finding out the teacher/adult/oneesan-type heroine is a virgin is such a big turn-off.
#63 by bossybear11
2019-06-10 at 07:30
Well she is so far behind in the promotional picture and video too... I think she is just a side heroine. The main heroine are the four(or five) who are in the front.Last modified on 2019-06-10 at 07:36
#64Post deleted.
#65 by yorhel
2019-07-07 at 05:11
Okay, sorry, but I'm going to institute a ban on talking about IRL women, their virginity, social status and all such. If that's a topic you enjoy talking about, I'm sure there's a subreddit for it. I'm seeing faaaar too many toxic views and [citation needed] theories on these boards and it's going to require long and in-depth threads to properly cover the topic - something I don't believe is very relevant on VNDB.

Stick to fiction, please.
#66 by bobjr2000
2019-07-07 at 06:56
not laughing at you yorhel or decision just that this is a hilarious ban to me. Such a weird community that we have to be told to stop being morons. Just tickles my sense of humor is all.

btw can we talk about male virginity and social status irl?
#67 by netonetori
2019-07-07 at 20:22
Idk why talking about real women should be banned. Your view about sexuality and by extent women affects your opinion of eroges. What you call toxic, btw? Women that have sex with lots of partners is what is commonly called an slut. Sluts cant be trusted for long-time relationships. In the same way heroines with sexual experience are not fit for pure love stories. Is not an *sexist* opinion but a very normal and common one even among japanese vn readers.
#68 by forever-here
2019-07-07 at 22:18
personally I don't want this site to be the next SJW infested tinder/tumblr/twitter hive ground. ban these refugees from said cancer sites. normalfags get out REEE.
#69 by warfoki
2019-07-07 at 22:51
Right, because we can either go full Tumblr or have "all non-virgins = sluts" circlejerk threads on the regular and nothing in between can possibly exist. Can you guys think outside of extremes every now any then for a change?

Personally I agree with the ban on flamebait-y topics that have fuck-all to do with VNs. They just bring unnecessary drama. You wanna discuss stuff like that, there are PLENTY of other venues to do so, take it there.
#70 by bossybear11
2019-07-08 at 06:17
What i know about VN it's a media for storytelling about a fiction story. Some status and genre in VN was the cause and effect from the author itself, because the author/story demands it or maybe just the author preferences. Genre in VN are not fetish fulfillment and if you dislike the author just don't buy or read that title. Problem solved !

I agree with the ban because opinion and critics are different from flaming/arguments. If you want to review/give opinion about the game, just discuss about the whole route or the whole game. Not some virgin stat from some heroine *snicker*.
#71Post deleted.
#72 by [deleted]
2019-07-08 at 10:06
I don't agree with the ban, mainly because I don't trust the mods to enforce it impartially. As #67 points out, their IRL political stances are influencing their behavior. The claim that this place will turn into another tumblr isn't as baseless as it seems.

Just look at #65. If your idea of impartial is deleting someone's post or locking a thread, then exploiting their inability to speak freely to low-key mock them then you'll only create more emnity. Even warfoki of all people sounded more neutral. #66 might be sarcastic but what really will end up happening is that the side the mods favor will post inflaming things and the mods will ban anyone who tries to level the playing field.

It's way too late to be concerned about toxicity when half the toxic things people post, the mods do nothing about. What makes a place like Fuwanovel friendlier than here is that they're pretty consistent about what they moderate instead of cherrypicking things they just don't like.

Sure it might get a little too PC there sometimes but at least I know what to expect from them. Here, I get the impression of a bunch of wolves fighting for dominance to establish a pecking order of sorts. The actual database is one of the best things to come out of the western fanbase. But the community? The community has always been a steaming pile of toxic shit. And with that said...
#73 by sakurakoi
2019-07-08 at 10:06
Can you guys think outside of extremes every now any then for a change?
Obviously that's not possible, the current zeitgeist is all about extremists and whoever dares to claim to be neither, left nor right, will be shot at by both parties. yorhel's ban on:
ban on talking about IRL women, their virginity, social status and all such
sure does not make one consider anyway that "you" intend to be balanced. Just like the UDHR which just so mentions (Article 25):
(2) Motherhood and childhood are entitled to special care and assistance.
Utterly contradicting Article 2:
Everyone is entitled to all the rights and freedoms set forth in this Declaration, without distinction of any kind, such as race, colour, sex, [...]
If you intend to diffuse this and do more than just (ab)use your authority, then don't pour oil on it. You did so it should be no surprise. Whether deliberately or not, you picked a side by giving that special care for women.

Rather than going to the right extend to prevent further arguments, you have gone the wrong extend.
Argument about personal choices with focus on real women?
Right: Ban talk on personal choices and just close those with the point: "Personal choices are just that, personal and everyone has to face the consequences themselves."
Wrong: Ban talk about real women. Statement for closing those then? Go ahead and surprise me with a suitable statement that does not declare real women as so utterly special~

Equality, everyone preaches it, no one actually wants it.


On a side note, I wonder if there is an actual and not manipulated study on whether those who completely separate fiction and reality tend to be unable to differentiate between them or not. Needless to say, there is none but just consider who and what the typical "sole resident of their own little world" and "nemesis of freedom of art" are. One sees and wants only fiction and theirs only while the other only sees and wants everything part of reality, plus turn it into the reality they want of course.

More agreeable point than "We just don't want to bother with it" I'd say.
#74 by warfoki
2019-07-08 at 10:22
Unless you make a neutral AI to mod things with nobody above it, the human element will always be a factor. Everyone has some sort of political view or personal belief system and people will always see the world through those, thus such bias is unavoidable. The only way to avoid that is by not having any rules or people to uphold it, but anarchy tends not to work I hear.

Also, I think you are overthinking this. I'm not Yorhel, so I can't know for certain, but I have a sneaking suspicion that this ban didn't happen because he was trying to push a narrative or because it was the next step in some policy-making masterplan. I think it was more along the lines of "oh for fuck's sake, not this shit again! Ok, I'm going to put an end to this nonsense right about now before we got yet another pointless flamewar."

Perhaps not the most sophisticated of reasons, but I can't say I disagree with the sentiment...Last modified on 2019-07-08 at 10:23
#75 by rampaa
2019-07-08 at 10:48
Kinda sidetracking here but was #72 banned for writing that? I see "#x by [deleted]" more and more these days but I am not really sure what's going on.

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