Tone Work's 4th project: Tsukikana

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#76 by warfoki
2019-07-08 at 10:56
That was Goblincrutch, basically one of the main reasons why the ban on this topic happened in the first place, so I'd imagine him being on thin ice already, and then he came here to blame absolutely everyone (community is shit, moderation is shit and so on), but himself for this while being generally not just unapologetic, but downright hostile. So I'd say it was the last straw that broke the camel's back, not quite the whole reason.
#77 by yorhel
2019-07-08 at 10:57
I'll be frank: I don't give a damn about the VNDB *community*, the thing I care about is the VNDB *database*. If you ask me to properly moderate VNDB and do so impartially, then it'll come down to a very simple rule: Anything that does not directly help the database will go. I actually did moderate VNDB like that a long time ago, but it wasn't a very popular rule, as you might imagine. It also had a downside of being a shitton of very tiring work that I'd rather spend on improving the database aspect of the site.

So my current approach to moderation is: Don't, unless things get out of hand. That is where things get rather subjective, and when I *do* step in, it tends to be with a somewhat extreme but lazy measure like the current one. Ultimately all I care about is that this community remains somewhat respectful, inclusive and friendly. Obviously I've failed at enforcing that.

As for the "no IRL women discussion" ban: Quite simply rather many people in this community are incapable of expressing their opinion without being incredibly disrespectful towards women, thus violating the "inclusivity" rule. Is there a better way to solve this problem? Absolutely. Do I care? Not so much. If you care and have good ideas on how to moderate this community, I'd love to hear them and I'd be happy to promote you to main board mod. But it takes a special kind of person to want to moderate this shit...

Kinda sidetracking here but was #72 banned for writing that?
If you see '[deleted]', then that *only* happens when the user themself requests their account to be deleted. Actual bans aren't visible like that.
(And yes, the downside of those '[deleted]' users is that they advertise the possibility of getting your account removed and thus people have started requesting that more often...)

FYI: So far I've not banned anyone based on this thread.Last modified on 2019-07-08 at 12:37
#78 by forever-here
2019-07-08 at 12:39
"inclusivity"

impossible. VNs by nature is quite niche. it will only attract 2 kinds of people, those that are into VNs and the progressive ideologues wanting to spread their ideology and are not into VNs in the first place.

I'm sorry, but when I see video game devs calling lootboxes as "surprise mechanics", I can't help but feel a bit... cautious in including people when they don't have the best intentions
#79 by mrkew
2019-07-08 at 15:37
How about the people who are disrespectful towards those who think that heroine virginity is important in love story VNs, as shown in absolute majority of Japanese moe games. OP of the other thread expressed distaste towards a developer changing their genre, only to be immediately attacked by people flaunting their real world social values to defend the integrity of a character, who “makes a point to never sleep with the same man twice“ as this statement is apparently not a reason to call her a slut. I would very much like to hear the definition of the word and the proper usage of that tag from them. Might as well remove the ‘not a virgin’ tag if it is so “offensive”.Last modified on 2019-07-08 at 15:41
#80 by butterflygrrl
2019-07-08 at 16:05
>it will only attract 2 kinds of people, those that are into VNs and the progressive ideologues wanting to spread their ideology and are not into VNs in the first place.

by that definition it's literally impossible for anyone to ever become interested in VNs :D
#81 by warfoki
2019-07-08 at 17:02
If you see '[deleted]', then that *only* happens when the user themself requests their account to be deleted. Actual bans aren't visible like that.

Huh, I actually wasn't aware of that. Well, I guess I learned something today.

it will only attract 2 kinds of people, those that are into VNs and the progressive ideologues wanting to spread their ideology and are not into VNs in the first place.

And yet again, you are thinking in extremes only. Also, inclusivity is not an awful concept (though SJWs hijacking it doesn't help admittedly). To put it simply: don't be an ass. When you or others go on long, sexist rants (as in old-school, legit sexist, not social justice sexist) on real life women being sluts if they dare to entertain the idea of a relationship with someone else than ones they lose their virginity to, then you are being an ass and make people feel unwelcome for no real reason. Why would that be tolerated? We are not obligated to make you feel welcome at the cost of making potentially a lot more people feel very much unwelcome. If that one thread was my introduction to the discussion boards, I would have noped the fuck out of here permanently. You wanna discuss the heroines of a VN, sure, go ahead. But when the actual heroines are not even tangentially related to the discussion anymore and the entire thread is about your warped expectations of real life women... yeah, no. Irrelevant and you make us look all bad by association if we do nothing about it.

We are not sanitizing VNs or VNDB to fit the perpetually offended social justice crowd, nobody said or wanted that, so stop hitting on that strawman of yours. We simply don't want to chase away people by encouraging such utterly irrelevant and flammatory discussions.

I know eventually some of you will bring up that I was very much involved in the discussion, and you are correct. I do regret it, should have learned a long ago that arguing against radicals of any kind on the internet is about the most futile thing one can waste their time on. It's just that one of the very few things I'm unwilling to compromise on is my "live and let live" worldview. I cannot stand when people spew hatred and venom from an imagined moral high ground against others based on harmless actions and traits. This is the core reason why I have a deep-seated disdain for both religious zealots and the social justice crowd. I'm a liberal in the old-school sense of the world.

Still, I should have known better than to let my emotions get the better of me in that one thread and I'll try to abstain from future flamewars like that. It's ultimately pointless anyway, you won't ever convince me and I'm unlikely to ever convince you.Last modified on 2019-07-08 at 17:03
#82 by sakurakoi
2019-07-08 at 18:02
How about the people who are disrespectful towards those who
do not have a vagina? Nah, nope, like one can not be racist against whities, one can not be sexist against men or whatever-phobe against heterosexuals. That's the temporal truth which not few intend to make universal.

At this point, vndb should not have a forum where anyone can open a thread in if no one wants to bother with moderating. Would I personally? While I do have several years of experience in a forum that was more toxic, it was EA and free2play after all, I'd rather not have to discuss my decisions at length with other moderators and admins.

I or rather we were quite fine and friendly with each other at EA (I know, either that should not be possible or we were all power-tripping' but rest assured most where chill dudes and gals) and the only time I was invited to a "private chat group" (literary, skype, you know, that thing before discord and after MSN) was because folks more and more did like to color their friggin' posts. No red on grey FFS...

Now I am afraid if I were a mod here, luckily without different background which was out of place since I still would like to post normally, whoever I'll be telling off for being either extreme, I will get flak from either side... and on one side are the mods. Everyone is biased but at least some make an attempt to moderate it, themselves.

If I were a mod I'd indeed pretty much deal with this disrespect to a certain group of women where a description applies the same way I'd deal with folks disrespecting each others' preferences over genre, not works or specific points in a work. If one is not a fan of a certain genre in the first place, even if it is "not anymore", one is not welcome in a discussion about a very work of that genre.

How I'd deal with that? Ask to stop and not reply to the post, then intervene if somebody still does argue. That was basically also my M.O. ("I told you to stop and now you did waste more of your time than mine, congrats~") in that way more active forum apart from hiding any posts that were obviously NG. So many vndb NG posts does not have, insults without actual explanation are rare.

There is after all a difference between explaining why what makes one a slut or a fool and just calling another one a slut, idiot or whatever. This discussion here was rather an argument indeed, rather crazed and something to be stopped but not banned. The reasoning could still be largely understood, not agreed with but one can see where one is coming from and that it is not completely wrong, mayhaps exaggerated but as personal choice acceptable (but again, not something to be pushed on others)

thus violating the "inclusivity" rule
there are... forum rules? (did not find any, if you really have some, you really should make them visible since this over-specified ban is otherwise utterly meaningless and quickly forgotten.) And here I thought you are basically operating like my old forum on common sense alone (though mine still had it written out i.e no spam, advertising, trolling, flaming, suspension circumvention and the size limits)

On a semi-related side note and which I like to point out because I find in- and exclusivity importante: Google does not recognize the word "inclusivity" but "exclusivity" it does. Now either we all get some pitchforks and beer or we actually consider the difference between not including someone and excluding someone.

Who is actually welcomed here and who is asked to get lost (more than just figuratively)? Pretty much anyone is welcomed the same i.e not at all, there are no real initiatives to get whatever group of people to come here (or just have a new members thread). "Not inclusive" indeed often just means that one is not invited but has to ask/do it themselves. You can be here but one can be sure that if one writes "welcome to vndb" they are either way too friendly (if you did not force the point on being new) or sarcastic (if you did).

Meanwhile if one skims the forum the group most argued against, to the point of exclusion, is indeed "moe" followed by, what was it again? Isekai but ironically written incorrectly. Unlike NTR where it is an eternal controversy, few argue for moe, isekai and other "wish-fulfillment", not even letting demand control supply.

Not to mention when a "Rorigon" dares to surface in other more "inclusive" media (anime). HorribleSubs Moderator gladly pin their statement about "remember that being a lolicon is BAD" on WataTen. "It's not hate speech if they deserve to be hated" is not a credo I follow...

I'm a liberal in the old-school sense of the world.
You know that moderates are a thing, right? Like seriously, it's like they mythological figures. One does not even fake to be one (actually 35%-38% of the statesmen do claim to be but they could be truly that, just the silent majority which we never hear about, mostly because they are utterly scared). Obviously claiming that only liberals like welfare, allow same-sex marriage and dislike corruption is just trying to make the other side look bad.
#83 by forever-here
2019-07-08 at 18:58
And yet again, you are thinking in extremes only.

you misinterpret me. VNs by nature is niche and thus a 100% inclusivity is just impossible. there are just simply people who are:

1. just not into VNs. not exactly hating the medium or anything
2. just into greed, money and sketchy practices. just like a certain AAA game company saying lootboxes are "surprise mechanics"
3. progressive ideologists spreading cancerous propaganda. to say nothing about them never being into the medium
#84 by zakashi
2019-07-08 at 19:12
what does niche mean? Not airing on TV? Pretty much anything can be classified as "niche" i think, and if you live in Japan VNs are one of the most popular types of games.
#85 by forever-here
2019-07-08 at 19:13
niche is the opposite of mainstream. and it could even be argued that anime is niche. I know people who play more fps crap like fortnite or rules of survival (hot take) than jrpg. the better question to ask is what's the metric for something to be niche and/or mainstream but that's for another timeLast modified on 2019-07-08 at 19:19
#86 by zakashi
2019-07-08 at 19:23
Yeah but these concepts are pretty confusing in my opinion, it is not like we can take any random stuff and classify it as "niche" or "mainstream", it is all about comparison, there are only things that are more popular than the others, take naruto as an example, do we classify it as niche since it is a manga? Or do we classify it as mainstream since is one of the most popular ones out there? Naruto is very famous, i think even more than some Disney's princesses movies like Moana or Pocahontas.
#87 by forever-here
2019-07-08 at 19:30
you're overthinking this and again that's for another time. and look, even mainstream is most of the time called crap because, well, it is mainstream aka low entertainment value that just so happens to appeal to a huge majority. but that just enforces the idea that 100% inclusivity is impossible.
#88 by zakashi
2019-07-08 at 19:34
the better question to ask is what's the metric for something to be niche and/or mainstream
Exactly, there isn't a clear line dividing what is niche and what isn't, and sometimes i see people saying something is niche when it is actually very popular,for example one piece is the best-selling comics series to date (including american and european comics), but people keep saying that manga is niche etc.
#89 by zakashi
2019-07-08 at 19:43
you're overthinking this and again that's for another time
hahahaha okay i might start a thread in this website discussing this lol.
#90 by amittesukku
2019-07-08 at 19:47
one piece is the best-selling comics series to date (including american and european comics), but people keep saying that manga is niche etc.

You just answered yourself. One Piece is one of the best-selling series, because it's a long-running series (thus having long-term fans) and given its popularity more and more people are interested in it. Manga is a niche in its own right, in the sense that it doesn't pour out into the mainstream often enough. Sure, there are people who read as many books/Western comics as they do light novels/manga, but there are still way too many people who prefer to think anime and manga are all porn.
#91 by zakashi
2019-07-08 at 20:14
One Piece is one of the best-selling series, because it's a long-running series
Superman or batman is older than any manga known.
but there are still way too many people who prefer to think anime and manga are all porn
People can have the wrong idea about anything, every media goes through this, and i don't know anyone that thinks manga and anime are all porn, what i see is people thinking anime and manga are all for children, and the same is valid for the marvel comics, people don't know the punisher and end up thinking that marvel stuff is just for children.Last modified on 2019-07-08 at 20:16
#92 by amittesukku
2019-07-08 at 20:23
Superman or batman is older than any manga known.

Let me expand - if it has long-term fans, it's bound to bring in even more new fans, as opposed to a series that's short (unless it's created by a popular person, that's another thing which may interest people).

what i see is people thinking anime and manga are all for children

Yeah, that's a thing too.

end up thinking that marvel stuff is just for children

That's probably because some superheroes have, in a way, become THE CHILD thing. You know, just like little girls have Barbie merch, little boys have superhero merch. Not to mention with the recent superhero TV shows the creators mean to get girls' attention as well.Last modified on 2019-07-08 at 20:23
#93 by zakashi
2019-07-08 at 20:38
That's probably because some superheroes have, in a way, become THE CHILD thing. You know, just like little girls have Barbie merch, little boys have superhero merch. Not to mention with the recent superhero TV shows the creators mean to get girls' attention as well.

Yeah okay, but the problem is that people generalizes everything, there are a lot of anime meant for children too, but it is not all of them, the exact same thing that you described here for superhero comics, not all of them are meant for children.
My point here is that what happens with some media also happens with the others, each work has its own target public, some of them fail to reach it, others are successful, there are a lot of famous manga, unknown manga, famous western comics, unknown western comics, so i fail to see why manga is niche by default, the whole concept of the word niche is very subjective and confusing. I'm not saying to drop the word, but when i see people using it they usually lead us to think that something isn't popular and isn't exploring its full potential, which can be the total opposite actually.Last modified on 2019-07-08 at 20:50
#94 by amittesukku
2019-07-08 at 20:46
people gerenalizes everything

That's just a sad truth of the world we all have to agree with, whether we like it or not.

i fail to see why manga is niche by default

I'm saying, it's considered niche because it's not a part of mainstream culture often enough. There really isn't a set bar for what's niche/mainstream or not. If you lived in Japan, you'd quickly realize that manga is mainstream while Western comics are niche. It's a matter of multiple things, such as availability (a product such as manga has to be translated to be legally brought into a certain territory), popularity (mostly won't exist until a product is available) and such.
#95 by zakashi
2019-07-08 at 21:03
Yes, you're getting my point, but the problem that i see sometimes is people saying "japan stuff is niche" in a tone of disdain, as if manga and anime aren't being invested on their full potential, that they don't try to reach even more people etc, which is something i strongly disagree, it is not like they lock the otakus inside a box and make anime only for them, they try a lot of different things every year, make partnerships with a lot of western companies etc. Well, that's it.Last modified on 2019-07-08 at 21:04
#96 by forever-here
2019-07-08 at 21:09
@95 that's their loss, not ours. stop giving too much crap what normies think or do. and this is why 100% inclusivity is impossible
#97 by amittesukku
2019-07-08 at 21:13
people saying "japan stuff is niche" in a tone of disdain

Personally, I wouldn't say it in a disdained matter, but rather as a matter of fact. I'm pretty sure you're overthinking it.

stop giving too much crap what normies think or do. and this is why 100% inclusivity is impossible

Damn, who pissed in your cornflakes this morning?
#98 by zakashi
2019-07-08 at 21:24
and this is why 100% inclusivity is impossible
Okay dude but on the internet you can just ignore the person, it is not like someone totally different than you is going to live in your house now.

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