Once again, Arunaru ruins another translation...

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#101 by kominara
2018-12-16 at 05:52
#100 Actually, this is a bit like if you went to a restaurant and the waiter spit in your food for making an utterly ridiculous analogy.
#102 by hybtranslation
2018-12-16 at 06:04
If only it was!
But please look at these 100 posts again, and then tell me - is my analogy really more ridiculous than this discussion?
#103 by pstevo123
2018-12-16 at 10:25
Well this got out of hand rather fast.

I am not up to Chiho at all being in the game yet but I can understand why "Dude" would be rather annoying even more so in H scenes. So I can agree with you there.

As for the other things mentioned unfortunately these are taking place more and more depending on the people doing the translation and this is not just for VN's but Anime, Manga, RPG games and so on. If that will stop you playing a game then your going to have a hard time going forward as it's taking place more and more.

I am not saying I support what they do but its becoming the normal these days and it's still better then no translation at all.Last modified on 2018-12-16 at 10:25
#104 by komocakeps
2018-12-16 at 17:30
our fertility rates are falling!

how in the world did this came here?
#105 by styr
2018-12-17 at 01:38
If Ginharu ever gets translated the NBR imouto Yuzuki better call the MC "dude" instead of onii-chan because she's not actually his little sister and we wouldn't want to confuse anyone.
#106 by [deleted]
2018-12-18 at 21:28
V2 up, replacing Dude with Onii-chan.

link

It seems that there will be a 3rd patch.
#107 by exaccuss
2018-12-18 at 21:47
Nice, too bad i completed chiyo's route a few hours ago lol. It's a bit sad the community has to fix their mistakes though.
#108 by ac728
2018-12-18 at 22:56
Great work, dude! Will be waiting for V3.
#109 by surferdude
2018-12-18 at 23:06
Great work, onii-chan! Will be waiting for V3.
#110 by ferustachi
2018-12-23 at 06:07
Kinda glad I picked up the patch before delving straight into the VN, partially because I don't like the word dude too much but also because if "Onii-chan do you know me?" was written as "Dude, do you know me?" it just would (to me anyway) strike such a disconnect audio wise (both because I clearly hear her saying Onii-chan but also because of her voice) but also visually with how Chiho is designed. Same really applies across the board.

But eh, at the end of the day I am happy we have translations period instead of no translations at all since, minus things I pick up from reading VNs I can't understand a lick of Japanese minus a few spoken words.

#100 I am seriously going to have to use this when I talk to my younger brother sometime, my favorite color is blue while his is green. :P
#111 by risingchaos
2018-12-31 at 17:01
I'm not going to engage trolls and nutcases, I'm more just voicing the presumed silent majority to show support for the good folks out there putting in the work. I'm sure Arunaru and MG are *totally devastated* at half a dozen whiners who were never going to NOT pirate the game regardless (and won't suddenly buy the game even if the so-called problems are officially patched) are spewing filth on the Internet about them, but sometimes it still helps to hear an encouraging word. I guess it's just a more detailed, and now more informed as I'm now finished with a majority of the game, version of my original post, though.

Removing onii-chan: Not having an actual familial relation to the protagonist, the only reason to leave it as-is is appeal to language fetishists. That's totally fine when you're playing a game like ImoPara or Onii-kiss, designed specifically to cater to that fetish, but SukiSuki is not such a game. Not to dump on anyone's fetishes but sorry, I don't care. And it's still in the audio which matters more when you're trying to get your rocks off anyway...

Changing onii-chan to "dude": I'd rather "bro" be the primary go-to, since it's more literal while still getting across the same tomboyish and friendly vibe, with ideally there being some mixup in vocabulary based on context. It's offputting in H scenes but honestly I'm not sure how to solve that problem when the girl neither knows the guy's name nor are they actual siblings, so there's no particularly good substitute. Maybe just leave it out entirely.

Mahiru's 3P: She's insufferable enough as it is. She still constantly references her Mahiru Kick anyway.

Spanish: Yeah yeah, English is lingua franca and Spanish isn't, so it's an imperfect substitute. But it is a valid option, one of many where no perfect option exists.

Yuki: It's technically incorrect but it bothers me about as much as changing John to Jon would. That is to say it doesn't, unless there was another character in the game named Yuki and accurately keeping the double U in Goshogawara's name was necessary to avoid confusion. It's not like her name was butchered into something completely dissimilar, get the stick out of your bums.

As I'm playing through the game myself, honestly the thing that kinda annoys me personally is that "karaage" is sometimes translated as fried chicken and sometimes left as karaage. Consistency, please.

@89: A TL notes text document is a terrible idea. The player shouldn't be obligated to consult outside material to play the game, even if that material is provided. You might as well tell them to Google it, which is honestly probably easier than opening the file folder the game is located in order to find a text file anyway.
#112 by being
2018-12-31 at 18:55
only xenophobes would rather have "localization" than tl notes
#113 by vvayfarer
2019-02-08 at 11:20
#99

You're proving his point. It takes years to get to the level where you can comfortably read the average VN in Japanese, whereas it only takes a minute of googling to get to the level where you understand what Oniichan/Niisama/Anchan/Aniki/Aniue/Anija/etc means.

This is analogous to world-building. In fantasy/sci-fi settings, you often have to learn new concepts in order to better appreciate the story. Unlike with world-building though, understanding of the language carries over to other VNs/anime/manga as well, so it is more useful.

And encouraging people to make a habit of looking up words and concepts they are unfamiliar with is absolutely a positive thing. Exposure to an exotic culture is similarly positive. Bilingualism has even been shown to stave off brain diseases. Complete TLs are thus mostly a negative thing, from an objective perspective.

Of course, older people who have had very little exposure to other languages will prefer complete TLs. On the other hand, very young people, non-native speakers of English and beginner/intermediate learners of Japanese will tend to appreciate more faithful TLs (after some initial exposure). The latter mixture of groups is probably a larger consumer of VNs than the former, and as such, it seems logical to tailor VNs to better suit their needs.

Liberal TLs work well with dubs though.
#114 by azengar
2019-02-16 at 00:49
They should understand that visual novels are only read by people who knows what onii-chan means, it's just retarded at this point.

It's like they think visual novels are some kind of mainstream things played by everyone, except most people still think it's a pedophile pastime.

Also, if they really want to push for this, then it shouldn't be too hard to add the option to choose whether you want honorifics or not in the translation.
#115 by kominara
2019-02-16 at 01:28
#114 wow, maybe you're right

in fact, let's leave "ore", "boku", "watashi", "atashi", "anata", "kimi", and "gakkou" there as well; any vn reader should know what those words mean, too. i just don't understand all these translators and their obsession with "translating" things.Last modified on 2019-02-16 at 01:29
#116 by vvayfarer
2019-02-16 at 20:18
#115

'Onii-chan' can be left untranslated since it works like a nickname. This does not work for personal pronouns like 'wagahai' or 'onushi'.

Gakkou could be left untranslated too, since it's a noun (like 'katana', 'samurai', 'ninja', 'tsunami' and 'sushi', which are almost always left untranslated by convention). But it has a nearly perfect translation (school), so there's little reason to leave it in Japanese (except in some rare cases).
#117 by kametec
2019-02-16 at 23:34
I haven't read this vn, but from I've seen in the linked screenshots, I'd say that the biggest issue with oniichan is the decision of the translator to translate it as dude on each and every occurrence. It ended up unnatural, strange and this whole discussion is a proof of that.

If I ever try translating, I will try to stick to as pure English as possible like white knickers as was mentioned earlier. (I really like that!) That said, valid points has been raised about some words, foodstuffs in this occasion, which are "difficult" to translate.
try translating yakisoba or sushi or tempura in english if you can
I think it is quite easy. Japanese already enriched English, therefore sushi, soba and tempura can be considered perfectly English words. Loanwords from Japanese. Cambridge dictionary knows them:
sushi
soba
tempura

Therefore I would translate sushi as sushi, yakisoba as fried soba and tenpura as tempura. On the other hand, I haven't found oniichan there, so I would avoid leaving it in my script, using brother, bro, dude, buddy, handsome, honey or whatever I feel appropriate for each line. Key is to decide on every occurrence, and the biggest challenge is to strike balance between consistency and variability. But that is what editors are for, isn't it? :D
#118 by vvayfarer
2019-02-18 at 09:51
#117

therefore sushi, soba and tempura can be considered perfectly English words

This is where you are mistaken. These words are still very much Japanese, untranslated words. The same applies to the words I mentioned above, as well as to 'manga', 'anime', 'haiku', 'kimono' etc. The fact that they are left untranslated out of convention (which was arbitrarily decided by random non-liberal translators at some point in history) and that some people decided to add them to an English dictionary does not actually make them "English" words. In reality, these are no different from "Onii-chan" and other similar words that lack English equivalents. And sometimes they are, indeed, "translated" to something that the translator feels is more relatable to the target audience.

For example, 'ramen' was translated to 'hamburger' in Ace Attorney games. Whether the decision is correct is debatable (it seems silly to me), but this choice is arguably more reasonable than changing Onii-chan to 'Bro' or 'Dude' or 'Brother', as each of these replace the original meaning with something with an entirely different emotional context.

Still, a full translation makes sense if a dub can be arranged. Otherwise, it's better to have the audience learn the meaning behind some common terms, for a myriad of reasons (e.g. those in #113).
#119 by arkady18
2019-02-18 at 10:57
In retrospect, maybe he should've translated onii-chan as BOI.

Jokes (?) aside, it was a natural choice to translate onii-chan, if I got the context correctly (she's not his sister AND she's not an imouto type heroine: she calls him onii-chan only because she doesn't know his name). If this is the case, onii-chan here simply means "boy, kid, dude, etc". I mean, if you see someone calling a male character "onii-chan" often this is only a way to call him without knowing his name. For example, if you are in a restaurant and a stranger calls you onii-chan, it's not necessarily a way to appeal to your fetishes.

Edit:
Now, I'm not saying that "dude" was a great idea (actually I think it's pretty bad, and I wasn't really joking when I suggested "boy", but since I'm not a native speaker I'll refrain from going deeper on this), I'm just saying that here onii-chan is simply wrong in a translation. I won't go as far as to ban the word onii-chan from all translations or whatever, it's not the point here. I'm just saying that this "onii-chan" isn't different from the way it's used in lines like this. Or do you think we should translate that balloon as "Hey, onii-san"?
Maybe you simply don't notice it, but the translations you usually read are full of "brothers" and "sisters" called "guys" and "girls" in the final version. Don't know you, but I would kill someone if I read "there's an onii-chan running on the street" or "the onee-san next door".Last modified on 2019-02-18 at 12:23
#120 by erohatasensei
2019-02-18 at 16:51
In retrospect we know that broski would've been the better choice.
#121 by yuuridudester
2019-02-18 at 17:00
I think I should comment on the latest posts, considering I changed it back to Onii-chan in the patch.
A one-off occurence of the word before finding out the person's name is a different thing from consistance usage throughout the whole VN, which is where #119's lack of knowledge about the visual novel becomes obvious. "She doesn't know his name" was a poor defense from Arunaru. She calls the MC Onii-chan even during the parts when she knows his name, which is the absolute majority of her route and all her common route events (MC introduces himself during her first event). Considering she uses it even in the epilogue where she has all her memories, you simply cannot make that argument.
As for the imouto-type heroine argument. She is similar to Koharu from Imouto Paradise 2 or Maple from Nekopara. She's a big hyper (and a bit dumb) bokukko, who is very attached to the main character, respects him, trusts him completely, and loves to be complimented and spoiled by him. I, personally, do not think little sisters should have big bodies and big breasts either, but those characters clearly exist. A small tangent for Maple - She is not related to the MC either and none of the other cats feel like they are in a brother-sister relationship with the MC. Should Maple's Onii-chan have been translated to Dude as well?
A bonus argument: There is a whole scene where all the MC's classmates misunderstand their relationship, thinking at first that she is his sister and then thinking he's making her use it as a fetish word. Needless to say, that whole scene was poorly rewritten in the release. Look at this (TL comparison below):
【山本】:「初秋くん、妹さんが来てるよ」
【颯太】:「えっ? いや、俺、妹はいないんだけど?」
【三橋】:「えっ? でも『お兄ちゃん』って言ってたよね?」
A few lines later
【千穂】:「は、初めまして。八高千穂です。いつもボクのお兄ちゃんがお世話になってます」
【黒田】:「ぼ、ボクのお兄ちゃんっ!? 初秋、お前っ、こんなかわいい子になんて呼ばせ方してるんだよぉっ!?」
Then at the end of the scene, once the misunderstanding is cleared
【山本】: 「あぁ、そっか。園芸部の子かぁ」
【三橋】: 「お兄ちゃんって呼んでるから、ビックリしたよねー」

Translation:
Yamamoto: Hatsuaki-kun, your sister's here.
MC: Huh? But I don't have one.
Mitsuhashi: But she kept calling you Onii-chan, I'm pretty sure.
-
Chiho: N-Nice to meet you, I'm Yataka Chiho. Thank you for being friends with Onii-chan.
Kuroda: O-Onii-chan? Hatsuaki, you freak, how'd you trick this cute girl into playing along with your sick fetishes?!
-
Yamamoto: Oh, so she's in the gardening club.
Mitsuhashi: Yeah, now it all makes more sense.

And here's Arunaru's TL:
Yamamoto: Hatsuaki-kun, some girl's here for you.
MC: Huh? Who?
Mitsuhashi: I dunno, but she keeps calling you dude.
-
Chiho: N-Nice to meet you, I'm Chiho Yataka. Thank you for being friends with my wonderful boyfriend.
Kuroda: W-Wonderful boyfriend?! Hatsuaki, you fraud, how'd you trick this cute girl into thinking you're any good?!
-
Yamamoto: Oh, so she's in the gardening club.
Mitsuhashi: Yeah, now it all makes more sense.
END

Dumb Japanese characters not understanding the many nuances of the word Onii-chan, amirite? How dare they be completely fine with his kouhai using that word.

A bonus comment in general: #118 is correct. Evolution of a language is an unstoppable process. People in the past must have at some point decided to use these Japanese words, all the while fighting against language purists who were against it, not knowing that the English language has way more words which were taken from foreign languages than its own.
More and more words from foreign languages are being added even nowadays. Fun fact - the word "kawaii" is in the oxford dictionary. Please, #117, make sure to use it in your translations.

A bonus fun fact (Jesus, how many of these will there be): Let's look back at Beat Blades Haruka. A fetish game through and through. There is a scene with Narika where she is held by a fat otaku who makes her call him "Onii-chan" because that's his thing. It's a fetish. And she indeed fully fits into the common image of a petite little sister (who refers to herself in 3rd person which was also removed there). How was it translated? "Mister". I'm pretty sure a porn translator's job is to make sure a fetish is not removed.Last modified on 2019-02-18 at 19:19
#122 by pabloc
2019-02-18 at 18:50
You accidentally slipped one of Arunaru's lines into your translation. :P
【三橋】: 「お兄ちゃんって呼んでるから、ビックリしたよねー」
Should be translated as:
Mitsuhashi: She really surprised me by calling you onii-chan.
NOW it makes more sense.

Seriously, this particular fragment is at the MoeNovel's level of nonsense (except it's written in proper English). How is being in the gardening club supposed to explain her calling MC a "wonderful boyfriend" FFS? -.-'
#123 by arkady18
2019-02-18 at 19:17
#121
Well, I read the previous posts and several users had said "she's not an imouto type and she calls him onii-chan because she doesn't know his name". I don't remember posts that clearly contraddict this (or maybe I just skipped them).

【山本】:「初秋くん、妹さんが来てるよ」
【颯太】:「えっ? いや、俺、妹はいないんだけど?」
【三橋】:「えっ? でも『お兄ちゃん』って言ってたよね?」
A few lines later
【千穂】:「は、初めまして。八高千穂です。いつもボクのお兄ちゃんがお世話になってます」
【黒田】:「ぼ、ボクのお兄ちゃんっ!? 初秋、お前っ、こんなかわいい子になんて呼ばせ方してるんだよぉっ!?」
Then the misunderstanding is cleared
【山本】: 「あぁ、そっか。園芸部の子かぁ」
【三橋】: 「お兄ちゃんって呼んでるから、ビックリしたよねー」
This is actually a different situation. I see what you mean here.
#124 by yuuridudester
2019-02-18 at 19:18
#122 You misunderstood. The lines are separated for a reason. The bottom two lines are from the end of the scene after she pretends that she's not actually his girlfriend, while the rest is from the beginning. Being in the gardening club is supposed to explain why they know each other. I'll edit my post to make that more clear.
#123 Here, their first meeting - linkLast modified on 2019-02-18 at 19:23
#125 by kametec
2019-02-19 at 02:47
#118
This is where you are mistaken.

Before we go about what is right and wrong we need to be clear on following: What is the difference between a loanword and an untranslated word?
Fetish came into English from French, which took it from Portuguese, which in turn got it from Latin. (source) Would you say that "fetish" is untranslated French word? Or do you think it was as some point? If so, what makes the difference?

Definitions of a loanword can be:
a word taken from one language and used in another
a word adopted from a foreign language with little or no modification

What makes a word English? If you place a word in an English sentence with some intended meaning and other English speakers understand it, is it an English word? Namely loanword, if it matches the definitions above?

I would say yes. I think the main difference between words like sushi or oniichan and words where you have to look up where they came from is how widely used they are. If a word is used long enough, people will stop perceiving it as foreign. At some point, people were well aware that fetish was French, coming from a French book. Now? I had to look it up to know about it. Though I am not native English speaker, so I'm not sure if I can properly evaluate what sounds foreign in English. That said, it doesn't sound foreign to me.

So, the fact that oniichan came up in #121 and is understood by us makes it an English loanword from Japanese, doesn't it? If it gets popular enough to start appearing frequently enough in media that people (oniichans? ossans?) from Cambridge or Oxford follow, they'll add it to their dictionaries. It comes down to each person's feel for English. If you're okay with words like oniichan, go ahead and use them. If you don't like them, don't use them. I'm pretty conservative in this regard, so I'll only use loanwords I consider frequent enough and I'm using dictionaries and corpuses to help me decide. Fun fact: I checked "kawaii". It is true that it got into Oxford, but it is yet to get into Cambridge. The fact it is in one and not in the other raises a red flag. They are in unison regarding the other more common words. I also checked "The Corpus of Contemporary American English" link and "kawaii" had measly 6 matches. Nope, not enough. I think I'd need some really specific context to use it and I cannot come up with one right now.


tl;dr: I am not mistaken.

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