|#101 by [deleted]|
2019-02-02 at 22:55
|#92/#93 this isn't even an argument. you're just saying "you're all wrong" with no backup. if you actually have any critiques, feel free to voice them.|
#94 fucking loanwords, how do they work?
#96 i'm actually dying right now; how is it possible to be this blind to your own incompetency?
#97 false equivalence. please actually read the VNs before you try to use them as an argument
#100 not relevant to the discussionLast modified on 2019-02-02 at 23:00
|#102 by dk382⭐|
2019-02-02 at 22:58
|Wakaranai, knock it off. Do not stoop to this petty bickering. If you think they're being petty, be the better person. edit: kominarachromer too. No insults.|
@94: For loanwords, our guidelines state that we are to use the intended foreign word. So rabu = love.Last modified on 2019-02-02 at 23:01
|#103 by davixxa|
2019-02-02 at 23:01
|@#101: There's no more to be said. This site is a lost cause. All the reasonable arguments fell to deaf ears. At this point, the community is just responding with numbers. I'm gonna take a step back and say, as a moderator of said community, that I didn't encourage them to do so, but I can't truly say I disagree with their decision either.|
@#102: Then why isn't Luka a loan-name? I've clearly outlined why Luka can be a foreign name. The Love in らぶChu☆Chu! is written in Hiragana, not Katakana. Luka's name is in the same case.
|#104 by dk382⭐|
2019-02-02 at 23:02
|Words and names are not the same thing and don't follow the same rules. That's the decision we've made.|
To davixxa, if you wish to discourage your friends to not use our site, feel free to do so. Which of course means discouraging them from coming on here to fling shit as well. I find it strange that after your "discouragement," more of them than ever are coming on here. If you want to leave, leave in peace.
|#105 by davixxa|
2019-02-02 at 23:06
|@#104: I guess that was kind of a last-ditch effort in hopes that you'd actually see reason. I never told them to go here, but if you want me to tell them to stop, I'll do that. |
>Words and names are not the same thing and don't follow the same rules. That's the decision we've made.
Well "ChäoS;HEAd Love Chu Chu!" is a name, no?
|#106 by saturn-san|
2019-02-02 at 23:06
|Everyone's else voiced similar arguements to my own, I thought that was obvious. I was voicing my thoughts on this sites managent as a whole.|
Calling me incompetent for pointing out that someone ignored the arguement made and instead resorted to insulting is pretty ironic.
My irelevant post was a response to someone else calling me a redditor.
Again no one has answered me, do any of you speak Japanese who are advocating for Ruka? If not then how am I supposed to take someone's opinion on translating seriously if they can't even understand the language they are talking about?
|#107 by dk382⭐|
2019-02-02 at 23:13
Well "ChäoS;HEAd Love Chu Chu!" is a name, no?To be more precise, it's a title, which consists of words, as most titles do (though some can consist of names too, in which case we'll follow our romanization guidelines for names).
|#108 by [deleted]|
2019-02-02 at 23:13
|#106 Romanization =/= translation|
Romanization doesn't require any knowledge. It's practically algorithmic; you just use the table to convert the symbols. Particles might be slightly more complicated than that, but that has nothing to do with what's going on here.
But to answer the question you're so intent on asking, yes, I am familiar enough with the basics of Japanese that I think that I can reasonably make this judgement.
|#109 by entra|
2019-02-02 at 23:33
|@106 You seem to be missing the point. The question is not if Luka or Ruka is "correct" - indeed it seems likely that Luka is the better romanisation - but instead if this instance is enough to look at allowing exceptions to the current straightforward process; algorithmic as the poster above said. The main name is simply a consistent guide to pronunciation and nothing more. The alias field allows entering other forms if needed, such as when the official English release is different.|
You should be arguing the pros/cons of allowing exceptions and not antagonising.Last modified on 2019-02-02 at 23:35
|#110 by delusionparadox|
2019-02-02 at 23:55
|I'd like to apologize for everyone who behaved improperly in this thread. I've already told them my opinion on their behavior elsewhere, and be assured the rest never intended for the thread to devolve like this.|
Although the argument is seemingly finished, I'll voice my opinion a single time since I didn't before, and I'll gladly accept whatever the final decision is.
Luka's name is meant to be romanized that way as the Japanese character る can be either "lu" or "ru". This is part of his name, which has been romanized in official material before, and not a random way of spelling it. Regardless of whether Japanese people are aware of how certain romanization systems work, it's clear they know about the different potential romanizations, and Luka's name was chosen with this in mind.
To further support this, there was a single time Luka's name was written as "Ruka" in an opening, but there has also been an instance where Faris' name was romanized differently, and it was changed in the final release. In other words, it's not a stretch to think that it's possible they would make a mistake romanizing names in the openings, as it has happened before, but it shows they're aware of the different potential romanizations, supported by the fact that the creators specifically told the translators not to use "Ruka" but "Luka", instead of giving them a list of how the names should be written.
Furthermore, as it has been stated before, Luka's name is relevant to the narrative, and it plays a huge role on his characterization. However, I'm aware that this site follows certain romanization rules. Still, I'd not consider it unsightly for a few exceptions to be made, as most people aren't aware of how this site chooses to romanize names. No one would ask you to quickly change all other entries that might be exceptions either, were more to be made, as that would be unthinkable. Even if some people told you that, I'd just advise to ignore them, as I'm sure you guys have other things to do and can't be dedicating all of your time to search through a massive database for exceptions.
A solution to this would be to add a rule to the romanization guidelines this site uses, so people had a clear idea of what they should change and would only report very few potential exceptions, and you guys wouldn't have to bother thinking about them. In that case, I'd suggest it were to be that cases when romanization for names can differ depending on the system and the author has stated a specific one, that's the one it should be used. Naturally, this would require a source, and if none was provided it'd keep being romanized as it was before.
On a final note, I want to restate that I'll be fine with the final decision, and I won't extend this conversation any further. I'd simply appreciate that this matter were to be reconsidered with these arguments and possible changes in mind, and whatever the result is, thank you for your attention.
|#111 by sakurakoi|
2019-02-03 at 00:34
supported by the fact that the creators specifically told the translators not to use "Ruka" but "Luka"incidentally, that circumstance actually supports another, more plausible, reason for why JAST who is known for high quality (and low quantity...) decided to change it, in contrary to the creators being convinced to by JAST. Remember, the veterans at English-Japanese is JAST, not someone who asks of a third party to localize their work. A mistake is less likely than JAST admitting a "little" mistake they did not make to not sour business relations.
It is after all common sense that especially in business (and love, one just gotta love a certain comedy anime of the current season, I will read the Manga soon~) there is a power relation between partners and I don't think I need to say who has the power over the other here. If JAST would have dared to discuss, they could indeed very well lost their license or at least future ones. They did not necessarily change it because the other was right but telling them that they are wrong (especially in their subjectivity they mean to turn objective) would not have boded well for them. Welcome to the world of adults, a world where you want to live in solitude.
|#112 by ramaladni|
2019-02-03 at 00:52
|@101 This whole thing is about you getting your panties in a bunch. It's almost as if you had an issue with this particular naming instance and were waiting for the right moment to jump the gun.|
|#113 by wakaranai|
2019-02-03 at 03:06
Luka's name was chosen with this in mind.what, you're a mind reader now? you can't seriously insist on knowing what went through localizator's mind.
Luka's name is relevant to the narrativeyou keep bragging about it, but how so? do you think it's an allusion to a christian apostle or something? like, wtf?
No one would ask you to quickly change all other entries that might be exceptions eitherha-ha, if only, look no further than t7442, people are constantly nagging for making exceptions pointing at already existing ones.
A solution to this would be to add a rule to the romanization guidelines this site uses, so people had a clear ideawe have clearly defined guidelines, yet look at this thread, some vocal minority is still not happy with it. why do you think adding even more rules would make more people satisfied? the problem we have is that people don't read guidelines in the first place, not that our guidelines are somehow incomplete.
author has stated a specific onethen add it to an alias field, problem solved without breaking romanization consistency.
|#114 by delusionparadox|
2019-02-03 at 03:37
what, you're a mind reader now? you can't seriously insist on knowing what went through localizator's mind.That line was about the creators, which show clear knowledge of the different potential romanizations, as proved right afterwards. It wouldn't make sense that it were about the translators when, as I've said later, they were told what to go with.
you keep bragging about it, but how so? do you think it's an allusion to a christian apostle or something? like, wtf?I find no need to repeat the explanation, it's already been posted in this same thread before. Also, I recommend you search up what the term "bragging" means, and as I've stated in the same post, I've never given my opinion on this topic before.
ha-ha, if only, look no further than t7442, people are constantly nagging for making exceptions pointing at already existing ones.I addressed that possibility right afterwards. "Even if some people told you that, I'd just advise to ignore them, as I'm sure you guys have other things to do and can't be dedicating all of your time to search through a massive database for exceptions."
As I also said in my next paragraph, if a rule were to be made, what now are considered exceptions wouldn't be a problem anymore as they would fall into the new set of rules and people would know which ones are admitted and which ones aren't.
we have clearly defined guidelines, yet look at this thread, some vocal minority is still not happy with it. why do you think adding even more rules would make more people satisfied? the problem we have is that people don't read guidelines in the first place, not that our guidelines are somehow incomplete.It's clear you also care about the issue if you keep posting in this thread after Beliar has reached a decision, so I'm not sure if talking about how a vocal minority keeps complaining is the right thing to do. Furthermore, as I've said before, the point of adding a new rule is avoiding conversation about these exceptions, as they would be addressed directly.
then add it to an alias field, problem solved without breaking romanization consistency.That's how it's currently done, and as I said, I'm fine with that. That doesn't mean we can't discuss the issue further. Mods can lock down the thread whenever they deem it appropiate, they're clearly aware this conversation is happening as they've posted here before.
I encourage you to read my post more thoroughly the next time, as most of your replies were answered already. I did say I wouldn't extend this conversation further, but I wouldn't like my arguments potentially being judged by the misconceptions of a reply.Last modified on 2019-02-03 at 03:54
|#115 by wakaranai|
2019-02-03 at 04:51
|^it was "you" as in "you people", english language doesn't have a separate plural form for that pronoun sadly. and no, there was no plausible explanation provided by anyone about how western name "luca" is relevant to the story.|
Even if some people told you that, I'd just advise to ignore themwhy should we ignore them, and not those who ask for ruka/luka change instead? they might (and will) provide all the same arguments about "what went through developer's mind."
the point of adding a new rule is avoiding conversation about these exceptions, as they would be addressed directly.clearly the current set of rules didn't prevent this conversation from going on, what makes you think some new rules would? i can tell you from database administration perspective that adding such specific exceptions is counter-productive in the long run.
|#116 by davixxa|
2019-02-03 at 05:14
> there was no plausible explanation provided by anyone about how western name "luca" is relevant to the story.
Except there literally was. Ruka (when written purely in Hiragana, like it is in the case of Luka) is a girl's name. Luca is a boys name. Luka is a guy. It just so happens that Luca transcribed into kana is るか (Yes, technically in Katakana, but we've already established with the Love Chu Chu argument, that this doesn't matter).
>why should we ignore them, and not those who ask for ruka/luka change instead? they might (and will) provide all the same arguments about "what went through developer's mind."
It's almost like we have personal contact with the translators of the game and can ask them this kinda stuff.
>clearly the current set of rules didn't prevent this conversation from going on, what makes you think some new rules would? i can tell you from database administration perspective that adding such specific exceptions is counter-productive in the long run.
That's because, we felt that even within the rules, that there was a case for the proper romanization.
When that was shut down by a haphazard excuse, I took to criticising the objectively arbitrary choices made in making the rules. Again, use the ISO standard, and I wouldn't complain, because in that case you're actually being compliant to some standard higher than pure chance.
|#117 by wakaranai|
2019-02-03 at 05:51
Luca is a boys name. Luka is a guy.how about this: Ruka is an effeminate boy with girl's name. and it makes more sense in context of the story too. so, like i said, western name "Luca" has nothing to do with it.
It's almost like we have personal contact with the translatorsit almost like it doesn't have any bearing on our romanization rules.
there was a case for the proper romanization.what are you talking about, it's properly romanized according to our romanization rules.
still, i don't see how we would benefit from making an exception in this particular case. to the contrary, i see how it will increase moderators' burden with a live example of d15, when people are making excuses pointing out at exceptions even when rules specifically ask them not to.
|#118 by hybtranslation|
2019-02-03 at 08:13
Romanization doesn't require any knowledge. It's practically algorithmic; you just use the table to convert the symbols.
The question is not if Luka or Ruka is "correct" - indeed it seems likely that Luka is the better romanisation - but instead if this instance is enough to look at allowing exceptions to the current straightforward process; algorithmic as the poster above said.
(...)You should be arguing the pros/cons of allowing exceptions and not antagonising.
I'd like to quote the posts by kominarachromer and entra, who I both agree with here.
Personally, I feel the discussion has blown out of proportion, but then again, it is not a matter I feel strongly about. Regardless, I feel most posters of the "Luka" faction (and I slightly favor Luka personally) are ignoring that the current rules seem to be pretty clear about this case.
This is not VNDB bashing Luka or doing something to piss off people. It is simply applying the rules which were made a lot earlier, without any sinister intentions, especially none towards Urushibara Luka. These rules are to provide a common ground, which is necessary for a community of this size.
If you want, you can argue changing these rules. I personally do absolutely not recommend changing them. After following this thread, I get a feeling it would be an opening of Pandora's box.
As has been mentioned, the name Luka is still prominently visible under aliases. Also, this discussion will keep being visible to all people looking at the discussions filed under "Steins;Gate". And it might be that they learn something from it, no matter which side they lean towards. I know I did learn some interesting facts from following this discussion.Last modified on 2019-02-03 at 08:22
|#119 by cozkumin|
2019-02-04 at 03:58
|Well, this has turned into an even larger garbage fire while I was gone, hasn't it?|
I'd still like to claim that the ambiguity of Luka's name is one of its strengths, and that choosing to go with "R" sort of eliminates that, if the rules say "る means ru," then I suppose that's all there is to it.
At any rate, rather than *why* the decision was made, what I wonder is why there was any ever any room for consideration in the first place—if the site's romanization standards are so clear-cut, why was there ever any room for considering exceptions to begin with?
While I certainly can't agree with the conduct of the SciADV fans in this thread (and really can't blame beliar for putting the blame on davixxa), I feel as if the "L" side was forced into a bit of an impossible situation from the start; we sort of had to grasp at straws to figure out how to even make a claim within the boundaries of the rules, since the rules already cut down the main argument, yet beliar's uncertainty had us thinking that there must be *something* we could say.
At any rate, I wish you guys the best in the future. Watch out for spiteful fans who seem intent on proving a point, because I've already seen a few attempts at vandalism so far from angry SciADV fans.Last modified on 2019-02-04 at 04:11
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