Dies Irae offends Christianity

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#1 by pkkodama
2019-03-07 at 05:13
I just finished the 4th extra story and I must say that I'm finding it extremely offensive the way how the characters keep saying that God doesn't exist and insulting the catholic teachings. I found it especially terrible the way how the narration said that normally everyone notices that God is just a fictional thing and that only the crazy believers truly believe that God exists in the 4th extra story in the church.
#2 by wonderbifle
2019-03-07 at 05:32
Something something Nietzsche
#3 by coffeeflux
2019-03-07 at 07:36
god is dead and you killed him
#4 by kilicool64
2019-03-07 at 08:17
It's funny that you take offense to that, yet not to the various aspects of Reinhard's character that are clearly intended as a critique of Christianity. Like that it's pretty meaningless to be loved by someone who is completely omnibenevolent. Or that the seemingly contradictory nature of a god who inflicts horrible suffering upon people despite his omnibenevolence can only be explained by him seeing destruction as a means of expressing his love. It becomes even more apparent in Ikabey, where it's pointed out that Reinhard really isn't all that different from what the god of Christianity must be like.

Likewise, part of the reason Mercurius exists is to show how much another aspect of the Christian god sucks, namely omniscience.
#5 by diabloryuzaki
2019-03-07 at 12:56
This thread itself is laughable. You find that dies irae offend religion teaching but you forget the existence of atheism. I just hope #1 that create this thread must delete it right now. Why? Because this thread have flammable content that trigger SARA
#6 by lordnight
2019-03-07 at 13:05
Then it's safe to assume that a mod can lock this thread.
Now, to summon one.
#7 by yorhel
2019-03-07 at 13:21
It's only flamebait if there are people stupid enough to take the bait. I hope the VNDB community is better than that and we can keep it civil.

And this also marks the end of the meta discussion, I'm tired of these "OMFG THIS IS SCARY LOCK THIS THREAD NOW!" posts. Create a new thread if you'd like to talk about how this board is moderated.
#8 by shinytentacool
2019-03-07 at 13:33
I find it funny that a conservative catholic would be playing visual novels. Nothing wrong with that of course, but I imagine you've been offended dozens of times by now

Just don't give it too much thought I guess.
#9 by kozmo
2019-03-07 at 13:36
Bait thread?
#10 by diabloryuzaki
2019-03-07 at 14:16
interesting fact
#1 never care this thread after created it
#11 by albedo
2019-03-07 at 17:48
#4 Dr. Manhattan did the whole omniscience thing better. That was in the 80s. Masada needs to read more, I guess.
#12 by pkkodama
2019-03-07 at 18:43
Why are people calling this a bait? I noticed that no one was commenting about this, so I decided to make a thread explaining how I found it offensive how the game keeps making atheist remarks, and most of the time it's a character dressed as a priest saying those things with a religious music in the background, just to make it as fucked up as possible. Any catholic person would feel offended by this game. The way how people are calling this a bait just shows their inability to comprehend that what is inoffensive for them can be very offensive for others. I wasn't even asking any question; I was just stating the fact that this game offends Christianity to alert other people who may start playing without knowing it, since no one appears to be talking about it.
The only one who was useful here was #2 wonderbifle. I didn't know that this game was related to the philosophy of Nietzsche.
#5 diabloryuzaki: I'm not forgetting about atheism. I just completely despise it.
#8 shinytentacool: You don't know what you're talking about. You can look at my visual novel list if you want, but I've never played a visual novel that is so offensive to Christianity as this. Fate/Stay Night has a priest who is supposed to be the villain, but in no moment he offends Christianity. It can clearly be seen that, theoretically, he has the religious teachings of what is right and wrong in order, meaning that Kinoko Nasu made his researches properly, unlike the author of Dies Irae.
#4 kilicool64: Reinhard is just a powerful human, and not God. That's not offensive. And the same goes for Mercurius, who is one of the characters who says that there's no God. The problem is the way how the game explicitly points out all the time that the beliefs of Christianity are bullshit like a matter of fact. The only Japanese work of fiction that I have read that comes close to insult Christianity as much as Dies Irae is the light novel "Ookami to Koushinryou".Last modified on 2019-03-07 at 19:54
#13 by onorub
2019-03-07 at 19:24
Is it really offensive when the VN shows such an average understanding of cristianity? I'd argue that Tokyo Babel is more offensive than this, because it tries to convince readers that it knows what it is talking about when the level of understanding is just as average.
#14 by diabloryuzaki
2019-03-07 at 19:52
#13
i think tokyo babel is offensive but not too much because it try to reveal what really happen in that end of the world, in the other words is spice flavor to the story. because almost all end of the world theme always do that pattern like the world end because supernatural ability in world scale, dystopia phenomenon, time machine or the god is dead
#15 by desann
2019-03-07 at 20:29
>>Reinhard is just a powerful human, and not God. That's not offensive. And the same goes for Mercurius
Mercurius is literally god in Dies Irae. Reinhard sort of too. And Ren. And Marie.
And, lol, if you find Dies offensive, you better never read Paradise Lost, because it's main theme is rebellion against evil christian God (well, it was sort of retconned with Muzan with kkk and pantheon now, but when you read Paradise Lost it totally looks like christian God). Successful rebellion.
#16 by diabloryuzaki
2019-03-07 at 20:32
despise it as you can but you choose wrong genre to despise. if dies irae is not have chuuni element, then ofc it will be offensive. but you forget that dies irae is chuuni game and that offensive remark is not enough to call dies irae as offensive
what i can think to your case is like this
you found that dies irae have incredible setting for world setting and character setting plus it have interesting development that you never know before. but when it said something that a little realistic to religion in real life, you get insulted no matter what. now the problem is how far is your knowledge to your religion that can make you get insulted? common knowledge? scholar that have specialist to religion? if your knowledge is common knowledge then you choose wrong thread. but if your knowledge is equal to specialist or more, then you are in wrong thread too. because it is weird to have people who love their religion but waste their time to play visual novel, especially it have content that might offend you

since start dies irae is the most understandable world setting in masadaverse. if you trace back what kind of structure that can make dies irae like that is like this
paradise lost -> dies irae -> kajiri kamui kagura. then the precedent of paradise lost and a moment before after story of kajiri kamui kagura is dies irae pantheon.
in pantheon, masadaverse start like this. (ready to read this long comment if you still want that dies irae offend you)
the world didn't have any color and after some thousand year the world experience a change. that change is the manifestation of the first generation of god throne. the master of that throne is Shinga. her rule for that no color world is to create 2 color, good and evil then make both of them fight one another. the good side will kill the evil to make them right and the evil side will kill the good side to prevail in this unreasonable world
but her world ended by the second generation of god throne, Muzan. he was counterattack the first to make her throne for himself and his rule is "do as you like", in the other words is paradise lost. his world ruled by strong people and strong people have rights to do what they like as long as they strong. the term of strong people didn't have any relation to good or evil. Muzan said like this, "keep live while embrace sin and punishment. that is human"
and then his world end like the first. the third generation rise in that sinful world and have a obligation to purify that sin itself from any lifeforms, that is Myoujo. his rule is to make any living things to know what they didn't know before because his definition about sin is fear to unknown so people do wrong things. he make any living things as one existence and one existence that represent all then make that existence to know what they didn't know before. his world equal to dystopia
of course his world come to end and this time the fourth come with a craving to unknown because he know too much about the universes. the name of the forth of god throne is mercurius. he want to know what he should do to experience unknown until he meet the goddess of twilight, marie. at that time he make a determination to create the best stage of his death. the role is his natural killer, golden beast, reinhard. and with his mercury he make ephemeral, ren as the hero in that stage together with the goddess, marie. his death always revolve to killed by his best friend or beloved goddess.
after the end of fourth world, marie world manifest with full of her love and try to relive it in her world. her world is the reincarnation itself almost same like mercurius world but without tragedy. she only want people to know that she was seeing their lives and always expect the happiness for their lives
the sixth ruler is the worst, his crave for the annihilation to god throne itself. he didn't care to the world, people, wish, hope or tear. what he only want is he didn't want anything or anyone touch him. he catch the mercury snake that want to rewind the time and kill him. he trample golden beast pride to the war as if it like doesn't matter to him and kill it. he even use his foot to stomp the goddess of twilight in front of ephemeral (ren) as if he doesn't care to the reincarnation itself. his name is hajun, an evil god, the worst god in god throne history. his worst is more worst than muzan or shinga
in the middle of self love people, there is 7 individual that didn't have any sentiment to that. later that 7 people will known as the heroes that defeat evil god and make new god, Shouko birth to the new world.

okay, i have explain what really happen in masadaverse in short and simple review that even include dies irae too and still hard to believe that dies irae can offend people so easily. what i can't comprehend is how to make a visual novel like dies irae can be offensive for sentimental people?
1. the characters keep saying that God doesn't exist <- then how can you prove the existence of god in dies irae world?
2. insulting the catholic teachings <- why dies irae should teach us about catholic teachings? it is doesn't like it will make sell better right?
3. the game keeps making atheist remarks <- then let's change these words to "the game keeps making catholic teachings remarks" and these words offend another people with different religion

with some review to masadaverse and counter statements to "how can you see this vn from wrong perspective" words, did you still think that dies irae still offend your teaching? or did you still didn't realize that you see this vn from wrong perspective? and let me correct your statement about the light novel Ookami to Koushinryou, you must see this LN from economy relation perspective not religion because almost all money and money finder works like that in the real world and you can't just deny it easily with religion words. and i advice you to retire from japanese world if you still have deep faith to your religion but watch 18+ contents more than know your religion because most of japanese works have various perspective and religion can't bind them for it
#17 by rampaa
2019-03-07 at 21:14
... so I decided to make a thread explaining how I found it offensive how the game keeps making atheist remarks...

I'm not forgetting about atheism. I just completely despise it.

By the looks of things, you and your beliefs don't deserve any kind of sympathy.
#18 by evanescentblade
2019-03-07 at 21:50
I have nothing against religious people, but...

I'm not forgetting about atheism. I just completely despise it.

I can't say I appreciate that. You ask for people to respect your faith, but you don't respect atheism. Hypocrite, much? Aren't Christians supposed to be more considerate and understanding?Last modified on 2019-03-07 at 21:53
#19 by surferdude
2019-03-07 at 22:01
He's not a Christian, he's a zealot.
The problem with today's society is, you can't say or do anything without offending someone: whites, blacks, yellows, homos, christians, muslims, jews, women... it just goes on and on and on...

Just MAN. THE FUCK. UP!
#20 by freshift
2019-03-07 at 22:15
Nothing wrong with him feeling offended by the game's various expressions, but one should not expect Western-style politically corrective and reserved approach to Western religions from the Japanese subculture let alone an eroge.
#21 by bobjr2000
2019-03-08 at 08:07
It is translated Mass of dead according to google and based on tags doesn't look like its suppose to be a happy vn.

To be fair catholic org has protected some individuals that have done a lot worse than offend people but kept protecting them from law anyway. So I wouldn't say its impossible scenario to have some not so savory individual in the church. Much that can be said of any organization or group. Or having groups of people not having high opinion of it even outside of vn. Just like you despising atheism.Last modified on 2019-03-08 at 08:24
#22 by kilicool64
2019-03-08 at 08:36
You know, you may be onto something here after all. It's an interesting idea to use the VN medium as a platform for promoting the one true faith while silencing all others. In fact, it inspired me to make a thread of my own. Take a look and tell me what you think: t12021
#23 by being
2019-03-08 at 10:02
they never said the game can't exist chill out menLast modified on 2019-03-08 at 10:03
#24 by wakaranai
2019-03-08 at 11:32
what do "catholic teachings" say about premarital sex depiction and porn in general? although i see how it might be considered less offensive than questioning the ideology itself. after all, infidelity was just frowned upon in christian societies while heretics were burned on stage.

still, how do you cope with constant indulging your primal desires, an action that is presumably condemned by your teachings?
#25 by encrypted12345
2019-03-08 at 11:52
Catholism condemns porn in a general sense, though being that Catholism is one of the largest branches of Christianity, it also is a branch that has a lot of people who only casually follow it. The Catholic Church also condemns condoms and homosexual marriage, but you see a lot of casual Catholics supporting them as an example.

To be fair, based on OP's playlist, nothing indicates that he has actually played an 18+ game. He might just be playing the all ages version of Dies Irae for all we know.

EDIT: Wait nevermind, I overlooked two. FSN is one thing but there's a Eushully title there too.Last modified on 2019-03-08 at 11:56

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