Main Heroine vs Side Heroine
|#1 by bobjr2000|
2019-03-21 at 04:21
|Having fun editing war and figure have others input. How determine when a heroine is a main character vs side character. |
My main point was that the characters have 1/3 length of story, cg, and scene vs the main characters on cover. The characters scene/cg are also shared in the harem section with the other heroines meaning they don't even get own section. Personal I would say its very misleading to say characters are main characters when you get significantly less content then others in all categories
His argument which hopefully will respond to post because I don't want it one side view is that you can make choices and get an ending with characters.
I would compare it to game below. Characters all below have routes but in 50+ hour game with barely same treatment as main heroines most people don't consider them part of main heroine cast which why they are treated as side characters and labeled as such.
Maji de Watashi ni Koishinasai!
|#2 by kratoscar2008|
2019-03-21 at 06:24
|Well to me usually is:|
The harem ending if there is one will usually not include the side heroines (Every Atelier Kaguya Bare&Bunny games has this where the 3/4 main heroines are in the harem end but not the rest).
Their route is short and they only have an small ammount of H-scenes (Same example with Atelier Kaguya Bare&Bunny games).
They are almost background characters with no plot relevance who only matter in an small part of the main story.
They may have some random H-scenes in the story but they have no routes whatsoever (Sometimes they may have no endings but all share a harem ending for themselves, for example the Elf Futago Hime side heroines or in Hitomi Rakuen 2).
Of course there are some exceptions but thats usually how it flies.
|#3 by dk382|
2019-03-21 at 10:59
|Next time please post this in the forum for the game or at least reference the specific game and editing conflict happening. For the record, we're talking about Ero Zemi ~Ecchi ni Yaru-ki ni ABC~, specifically, Hyoudou Fuyumi and Amakamihara Monika.|
Main characters do not necessarily need their own route. They can be characters that are deeply involved in the story, even if they have no route and dedicated endings. On the same token, characters with their own routes and endings may not always be main characters if they play an ancillary role and their dedicated content is short.
The character roles are definitely one of the most chaotic parts of the database, tbh. There is no clear line for when characters are main or side characters, and people just do whatever the hell they want basically. The end result is that there is zero consistency from VN to VN. Despite this, edit wars over them are rare because people generally don't care, I guess?
A good number of characters who are currently labeled as side characters could easily be upgraded to main characters, imo. Majikoi is a prime example of this, actually. Yamato's male friends almost certainly qualify as main character material according to our guidelines. They are very important to several of the routes and have a significant amount of content dedicated to them. But I don't think anyone's ever questioned this before, so they've stayed as side characters since they were added. Almost makes you feel bad for them.Last modified on 2019-03-21 at 11:10
|#4 by kiru|
2019-03-21 at 11:12
|This is actually a site-wide issue. I generally don't like to edit stuff where I'm not 100% sure, but I've seen so many cases where I think that "main" is used wrongly. Commonly you get every girl that has a route put into "main". Unfortunately, with the rise of mini-routes for minor characters, this doesn't work too well anymore. For example, Mibu Chisaki or Kurama Koharu or Maniwa Roka , all from the recent two Yuzusoft games, all considered main characters here. The game before those two actually has it done differently though, where Kariya Wakana is a side-character.|
That said, I wouldn't say that "main" = "main heroine" in the first place. And this is what makes it weird and highly subjective. The aforementioned Yuzusoft characters are no main heroines. But maybe they are still main characters? How about a female character that is overall very important, but doesn't even have a route? Main? Not main? So far these characters are usually not considered "main", but again.. if you don't equalize main = main heroine (if female), than that's kinda wrong.
I'm for "heroine" and "side heroine" traits. (male versions as well of course) That would solve this. Otherwise we'd need to do it like EGS, and just consider characters on the cover, or with main routes, as "main", regardless of what role they actually have in the story. I'm not that happy about this though, as it messes with many games like Umineko or whatever.Last modified on 2019-03-21 at 11:14
|#5 by dk382|
2019-03-21 at 11:36
|As someone who spent a lot of time "fixing" Daiteikoku's character page, I will certainly agree with there being issues with the character system. (and by "fixing," I mean applying a band-aid fix through guesswork, deleting dozens of characters and downgrading many more)|
It's not a guideline issue, imo. It may be possible to introduce a little more clarity in the guidelines, but I don't expect people to follow them very well, and ultimately the concept of character roles in and of itself is a very fluid thing in the world of fiction, making it impossible to nail down precisely. So if this is something we decide to address, the correct solution would be through expanding site functionality in my opinion. We could introduce new heroine/hero roles, but even the definition of heroes/heroines is under debate, with many people applying the heroine tags to VNs inconsistently. Is a girl who gets a single h-scene but only appears a handful of times and has no route a heroine? What about a girl who gets no h-scenes but appears frequently? There is no consensus on either of these questions.
We could have "Main Love Interest" and "Side Love Interest" roles as addition to the regular main/side characters, and then attempt to clearly define what that means. But I honestly have no idea if this is the right solution to the problem, and there would be a LOT of characters who would have to be modified. The other thing is, how big of an issue is this, really? There have been screwed-up character pages before (such as the aforementioned daiteikoku), and there's inconsistency in the categorization, but how much does that really matter? It would be better if it was more consistent, but we have to weigh if it would be worth overturning a large portion of the character database to address this issue. Everyone else should feel free to add their input.Last modified on 2019-03-21 at 11:39
|#6 by krykry|
2019-03-21 at 12:41
|This isn't an issue that can be clearly categorized. I've been pondering myself over Happiness! 2 Sakura Celebration recently, wondering how to categorize Mikagari Mashiro and Ichijou Mizuki. In a way, those two characters get together with the protagonist during true ending route while other heroines are kinda ignored, which is why I'm wondering about putting them in as main heroines.|
Imho, it's case-by-case basis. There's plenty of factors to consider, like relevance to the story or their position in respect to the protagonist, screentime.Last modified on 2019-03-21 at 12:43
|#7 by kiru|
2019-03-21 at 13:54
|^That's the thing I was talking about. These two character are definitely main characters, but are just as definitely side heroines. (the game makes it pretty obvious in the extra menu)|
If we'd change things, we'd probably need to change a few tags as well. Protagonist's Sister as a Support Character wants to apply for what you'd not consider a main or side heroine right now. But the naming doesn't really make that clear, as it says "support character". A support character can be a side heroine, like it is in this game, which invalids the tag. Quoting from the tag description: "She is not the target of any romance from the protagonist unlike the similar heroine entry." In this case, it definitely doesn't apply.
Messy.Last modified on 2019-03-21 at 13:56
|#8 by bobjr2000|
2019-03-21 at 14:37
|Sorry should have put it in game section and agree with most of points. Maji de Watashi ni Koishinasai! is a charage hopefully using this word right and not a nukige. So makes more sense male main character heavily involved would have main status. I was more annoyed to play a nukige with a character as main only to find out barely had the nukige :(|
|#9 by dk382|
2019-03-21 at 23:36
This isn't an issue that can be clearly categorized. I've been pondering myself over Happiness! 2 Sakura Celebration recently, wondering how to categorize Mikagari Mashiro and Ichijou Mizuki. In a way, those two characters get together with the protagonist during true ending route while other heroines are kinda ignored, which is why I'm wondering about putting them in as main heroines.If you do this (and based on this post I wouldn't object), add the "not sexually involved" trait as well (assuming that's the case). That way it would at least avoid any confusion about that... until a fandisc comes out and ruins this.
Imho, it's case-by-case basis. There's plenty of factors to consider, like relevance to the story or their position in respect to the protagonist, screentime.
|#10 by krykry|
2019-03-22 at 00:14
|#9 They are sexually involved, they even got an afterstory scene (in addition to a scene in the true end route) for themselves that happens after the true end.Last modified on 2019-03-22 at 10:13|
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