|#51 by kilicool64|
2015-04-22 at 14:29
|@50 That I can agree with. Unfortunately, Uchikoshi and Nakazawa generally don't take the principle of causality into account in their stories.|
|#52 by adormus|
2015-04-22 at 15:05
That's why I consider Steins;Gate a masterpiece, while denying ever17 that right. In Steins;Gate you have to think quite hard to point out the plotholes. They're there, but they're not blatantly obvious. I know that any story involving time travel will have flaws. So I'm usually able to overlook them, because it's just the nature of those stories. But in Ever17 it's really obvious that the devs deliberately created the gaping hole just to make the story work. All the while pointing out the same kind of paradox just a few scenes earlier. (It's the scene where BW gets back to 2034 after telling You that Takeshi's in IBF). That just killed the time travel aspect of the story for me. It nevertheless remains a great VN, though.
But...that wasn't even my point, actually.
I just feel sad thinking about Tsugumi. She had to leave her children behind, not seeing them for 15 years. Always on the run from Leiblich while mourning the loss of Takeshi. And then she has to witness the same crap that lead to all this again, because You'haru tricked her into it. I really expected her to go nuts on You'haru afterwards. But she is completely fine with it and doesn't even mention it. That's my #1 problem here. It's not about causality or rational thinking. It's about her emotions.Last modified on 2015-04-22 at 15:07
|#53 by zetsubou-bimmy|
2015-04-22 at 18:50
|There was something that always bothered me but at the same time I never really bothered to ask untill now, when I see gundamace mentioning Drama CDs.|
It's been a while since I played this so I might be misremembering something but basically Takeshi was dead in the climax of the True Route, right? His body was left underwater, after he sent Tsugumi away in that washing machine or whatever. And yet BW went into that timeline, possessed his body and sent him into that cryogenic thing. But at the exact moment of possession or whatever, Takeshi was dead, wasn't he? Did they ever explain how he was able to revive him or was that power of love/friendship/asspulls? Maybe in the Drama CDs or some other side materials?
|#54 by kilicool64|
2015-04-22 at 19:12
|@52 Actually, I'd say S;G has an even more glaring plot hole. Namely, that its science is horribly inconsistent with its own rules. (The following part containt S;G spoilers.) Preventing whatever causes Mayuri's death in the B worldline only causes her to die through some other way because her death is predetermined, but its cause isn't. Yet saving Kurisu in the A worldline somehow conveniently splits this into a separate worldline where the universe doesn't pull something out of its ass to kill her anyway like with Mayuri in the B worldline. It's one of the main reasons why I don't really like the VN.|
|#55 by adormus|
2015-04-22 at 19:36
I know this gets kinda off topic now, but I still have to say this.
Steins:Gate Spoiler !
Nah, I don't think so. Just see it that way: If you resolve the paradox in Steins;Gate, what happens? The ending doesn't work. If you take out the paradox in Ever 17...the whole story crumbles to dust. Even the very first scene with Hokuto wouldn't work.
Also in S;G it's not really a paradox, since they work with world lines. He simply switched to a world line where both Kurisu and Mayuki survive. It's a rather simplistic way to circumvent any time paradoxes, but it works. Any and all plotholes in S;G can be explained. The problem is, that some of them need some serious teethgrinding to do so. Your teeth have to grind on this matter a bit more than mine, I guess.
However, as I said, everything involving time travel will have some sort of flaws. You simply can't make a completely logical time travel story. And I never said that S;G does that. I simply stated, that S;G does the best job to depict it. There's no other time travel story that could even compare to it. Therefore, it's a master pieceLast modified on 2015-04-22 at 19:39
|#56 by iwasawa|
2015-04-22 at 21:38
|Far from me the intention of delving into quantum physics and I'm also OT, but @54|
Okabe is the observer and, as said in quantum physics, reality is partly created by the observer; to save her while keeping consistency with the previous observation, he comes up with the idea of tricking himself into observing her again in what looked like the same situation she versed in the first time he found her, so that things at that moment wouldn't be different for his perception. It's been a while since I read it but that's the reason iirc.[spoiler]Last modified on 2015-04-22 at 22:32
|#57 by gundamace|
2015-04-22 at 22:33
The answer can be understood if you've read Never7.
(Never7 spoilers and a minor Remember11 spoiler)
No, BW never possessed Takeshi during the climax. What happened is that while Takeshi was "dead", his death couldn't be confirmed until his death was observed and confirmed as dead (this idea is furthered by Remember11, where a consciousness still lives on after the body has died until it understand that its body has died). When Hokuto saw Takeshi, he believed from the bottom of his heart that he wasn't dead and deluded themselves he could get back up. And so when Takeshi's consciousness heard Hokuto's cries through BW, he believed he was still alive. Now, the following is my own personal speculation:
When Takeshi heard Hokuto's voice, he believed he was still alive, but wondered how that could be. He then came to the conclusion that it was the Cure Virus that kept him alive, as he now believed it had the power to prevent people from drowing.
With two people now firmly believing that Takeshi was alive (the liar (Hokuto) and the one being lied to (Takeshi)), this caused Cure Syndrome to manifest and rewrite reality so that Takeshi was still alive and could survive underwater through the Cure Virus. This is why he was able to swim all the way back to LeMU- thanks to Cure Syndrome, he could now be underwater for as long as he wanted and not die.Last modified on 2015-04-22 at 22:35
|#58 by gabezhul|
2015-04-23 at 04:29
|@56: That's pulp-quantum physics. Reality is not "created" by the observer. This bullshit is just the popular misinterpretation of the Heisenberg uncertainty principle bastardized by new-age gurus trying to sell snake-oil based on "quantum".|
So no, you didn't delve into quantum physics at all. At best you are just discussing fictional in-universe metaphysics. Please understand that the two are far removed from each other.
@57: You are really over-thinking this. Takeshi never dies. There is no "observer phenomenon", "surviving consciousness" or "rewriting reality".
Simply put, Takeshi survives the pressure and drowning because of the regenerative properties of the Cure Virus. It's just that we, the readers, only learn about it when BW/Hokuto specifically goes and looks for him at the end of the true route, as until that point he thinks that he is dead.
Remember, BW can be at any place at any time, but not at all places at the same time. He only knows what he consciously observes. He left Takeshi when he blacked out after leaving the escape pod because of the pressure, and thus BW (and thus the players) moved on to the next route, but in fact Takeshi was still alive at that point.
|#59 by kilicool64|
2015-04-23 at 08:07
|@58 I don't see how the Cure Virus could have helped Takeshi. How does being immune to almost all deceases and having cells that replicate much faster than normal help you when you're running out of oxygen?|
|#60 by adormus|
2015-04-23 at 09:27
|@59 Well, water is not devoid of Oxygen. Otherwise fish would drown. You could also read up on breathing oxygen-rich liquids. It's there in real life, but it doesn't work with the salt water in oceans. This was another teethgrinding session for me, but in the end I brushed it off with "Well, Cure just altered him, so he was able to extract the oxygen in sea water."|
It's still somewhat hard to swallow, but it works....somehow.
|#61 by iwasawa|
2015-04-23 at 11:17
|@58 Again, as it wasn't in my intentions. I don't know much about it anyway, I just know that that's the logic behind that event in the game, be it actual truth, rhetoric or a misinterpretation like you're saying. Nor I see me doing something different from discussing the game as the game it is, as most sci-fi of this kind it takes "actual" concepts and bends them for its own purposes... maybe you study physics and are annoyed at this kind of misinformation but man, the last 2 lines are akin to slander asdLast modified on 2015-04-23 at 12:22|
|#62 by gabezhul|
2015-04-23 at 14:42
|@59-60: He doesn't even need to breathe underwater. He just survived without oxigen for, what? Five minutes? Taken that the Cure Virus already has to practically re-write the entire bio-chemistry of the human body to work, extending the period during which one can operate without oxigen doesn't sound far-fetched at all.|
@61: Please look up the definition of the word "slander", because you are apparently not very familiar with it.
All I did was state that you are not discussing actual quantum physics but the in-universe methaphysics of the setting, and thus your disclaimer about "delving into quantum physics" was pointless. That's all.
As for getting irate over the issue... Yes, I have a very low tolerance for quantum-bullshit. Blame Chopra for my temperament. :P
|#63 by iwasawa|
2015-04-23 at 15:58
|^ "akin"... but yeah, should have just wrote libel. Anyway, the disclaimer became pointless the moment someone like you felt the need to ignore it and bark about how that's not how it work irl because reasons and what followed, which would have been quite retarded if it wasn't just you sublimating the need to insult me for only you and Chopra know what reason.|
|#64 by gabezhul|
2015-04-23 at 16:25
Wrong answer. Try again.
There was no libel there either, unless me grumbling about you implying actual quantum physics in S;G somehow damaged your reputation, exposed you to public hatred, contempt or ridicule, or injured you in your business or profession.
Also, daaamn... If you think I insulted you, you must have the thinnest goddamn skin on the planet. You should really get that looked at by a dermatologist, you know?
|#65 by iwasawa|
2015-04-23 at 17:46
At best you are just discussing fictional in-universe metaphysics. Please understand that the two are far removed from each other.
Did this have any other purpose aside trying to make your interlocutor look like a moron? I don't think my first message had the nuance/could have given the impression that I was talking about how S;G explains that situation as something plausible outside the boundaries of the game (aside for the observer partly creating reality thing that I pointed out, which, as wrong as it may be, is something that's actually said by those "new-age gurus" as you called them). I might have thin skin but I didn't have the impression you were in good faith, if I was wrong all the better.
|#66 by loctar87|
2015-04-24 at 00:18
Did this have any other purpose aside trying to make your interlocutor look like a moron?Hey! Leave my mother out of this!
|#67 by bunny1ov3r|
2015-10-15 at 19:24
|Wow, the writer used every trick and character setting for the final revelation that just blow your mind..|
|#68 by gabezhul|
2015-10-15 at 19:27
|Yup, that's pretty much the reason why E17 is so highly rated. The wast majority of the VN is just okay-ish, but the last route is just one mind-blowing moment after the other.|
|#69 by evanescentblade|
2015-10-15 at 20:18
|It's because the vast majority of Ever17 is only decent at best that I was unable to give it a 9 or higher lol, though the True route taken by itself is definitely deserving of that rating, imo.|
|#70 by rey777|
2019-05-15 at 15:53
|Just finished ever17.|
I'll be honest, it was not worth my time. Seriously Coco's route was good(generally) but it isn't worth my time for the 4 other route that were a chore. Doesn't help that I liked none of the character (except for Sara if she could shut up about her Nin nin).
I'm a pretty generous one for the score so I could have liked ever17 for coco's route only...if it wasn't riddled with problem too.
The twist was good, the story was good, everything click together but still SO MANY PROBLEMS.
There are first, unresolved matter: kick-the-can, life-reading, man on the screen in You's route, Coco mysterious power and her dad but that is fine... just some unresolved stuff that I could glance over. But then when the true route start and everything click together... IBF didn't get crushed by the debris of LeMU even though it was hinted everytime in every Takanashi route? Hokuto jumping in the deep ocean and somehow surviving the pressure for x reason? Takanashi surviving the ocean floor even though he drowned? You trying to tell me a fking dog robot could do that fking much by himself and could also fking swim from the bottom of the ocean to insel null? Ha.
I tried to like ever17 but Coco's route only made it decent because of all these problems, hell I'm tempted to lower the score because the first half of Coco route basically everything before they escape LeMU was so damn boring as well.Last modified on 2019-05-15 at 15:54
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