Why are there so many crappy oelvn

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#26 by drjones
2019-05-05 at 00:00
You can get rid of most OELVNs by adding a filter that hides all Ren'Py games.
I vote for removing all OELVNs from the database, though, because if you read them you develop brain cancer. Their place is in the Dark Web alongside with other poisonous substances.
#27 by alexlung
2019-05-05 at 00:00
Is Oelvn actually a thing? Never heard of it
#28 by alexlung
2019-05-05 at 00:01
I don't see the tag for Oelvn on VNDB 0.0
#29 by usagi
2019-05-05 at 00:09
I don't see the tag for Oelvn on VNDB 0.0
It's pretty much this Ren'Py Engine
#30 by periah250
2019-05-05 at 02:17
#26 how do I go about filtering those out?
#31 by being
2019-05-05 at 02:20
Because EVN=amateur efforts. JVNs just win due to polish, money, competence and a tradition of standards. It's easy to overlook how professional the people working in VNs often are. Meanwhile in EVNs, whether it be writers, artists or voice actors, are really just amateurs. Now, an amateur can still create amazing stuff. I don't dismiss EVNs outright...
but how, just how are you ever supposed to find which EVNs are actually outstanding? If both the creators and the audience have pretty universally bad tastes, anything that's actually outstanding is unlikely to really get much of an audience, because anyone that actually manages to find it is too likely to be too stupid to understand that it was actually any good. Furthermore that just discourages anyone competent to work in EVN. Why bother when it'll just get drowned out in a sea of shit?

Funnily the only great EVN I know is Katawa Shoujo which is incredibly mainstream. Honestly that's just a funny coincidence. I'm sure there are much better EVNs. Unfortunately it's not exactly a good idea to try to find them as I will just find bad things all the time instead

#25
I know 4 of those, but I don't think any of them are very good. Nothing special honestly. We Know the Devil and Soundless had potential, but the author just doesn't know what they're doing. The writing for Soundless is just okay if you really like the Denpa style and misery porn. We Know the Devil has great ideas and music, and some very interesting endings, but it's bogged down by terrible dialogue. That's the problem, they're somewhat interesting but they're not actually good...
It's just so unlikely to find a good EVN even if you actively look for those that seem appealing. Since that's the case, it's pretty much a waste of time to even bother to search them out to begin with.Last modified on 2019-05-05 at 02:38
#32 by dk382
2019-05-05 at 03:21
Is Oelvn actually a thing? Never heard of it
Original English Language Visual Novel. Essentially, VNs that were made in English first. Some people also put all western-developed VNs in this category, like Beskonechnoe leto.Last modified on 2019-05-05 at 03:50
#33 by kratoscar2008
2019-05-05 at 06:21
#30
Just filter everything with english or Russian as a native language.
#34 by ginseigou
2019-05-05 at 07:07
A selection of EVNs I've rated 8 or higher:

80 Days (my one and only 10 vote)

I actually bothered to finish it a couple of times and the game looks more like a text adventure (CYOA) with item management than a vn.
Still, it fails short in comparison to Phoenix Wright, which is a bit different in terms of game-play but an adventure too. So I guess oelvns general inferiority stays true.Last modified on 2019-05-05 at 07:29
#35 by pabloc
2019-05-05 at 08:49
@22
If you're looking for EVN yuri have you tried Highway Blossoms, A Little Lily Princess, and Heart of the Woods?
I have A Little Lily Princess (I actually bought a whole Humble bundle mainly for this VN), but it's on a rather low priority in my backlog. But hey, that's still a huge achievement, since romance/relationship-focused titles that have no sexual content pretty much automatically land on my blacklist.
Some opinions about Highway Blossoms mentioned stuff that would probably annoy me, and it doesn't take a lot to discourage me from reading an OELVN, so that's a pass. :P
Never heard of the last one, but it looks good indeed. And it has 18+ version too. ->Backlog ^^

@25
Oh, I forgot that 80 Days is considered a VN. It definitely feels more game-like than VN-like, but yeah, it's very good. Other stuff doesn't really seem like anything that could rival the best JP doujins. Like I said, if you dig deep enough you'll bump into decent OELVNs. Ebi-hime's stuff or Cinderella Phenomenon for example certainly look kinda interesting. Being all-ages makes them not-so-interesting for me though. Oh, and Juniper's Knot would have been decent, but one stupid detail kinda ruined the whole story (t2615.20). Illogical stuff like this really rubs me the wrong way. >_>

@31
Because EVN=amateur efforts.
That's why I'm only talking about JP doujin VNs, that are just as "amateur" as OELVNs. Indie games scene on the West has made several titles that absolutely beat the crap out of huge-budget AAA games (in terms of stuff that matters, that is gameplay or overall enjoyment, not pretty graphics). It just seems that good writers don't pick VNs as their medium, or it's just as you said - good stuff simply gets lost in piles garbage. I'm not so sure about the latter though - it should work the same way for JP VNs, since there's no shortage of absolute thrash there, and yet doujin stuff that reaches the mainstream is on a completely different level than Katawa Shoujo or DDLC.

Now that I mentioned "good writes"... I see a certain pattern here. Both The Adventures of Prince Ivan and Beyond the Wall of Sleep that I mentioned earlier, A Little Lily Princess that piqued my interest, and even 80 Days have one thing in common. Literary Adaptation tag. :P
#36 by butterflygrrl
2019-05-05 at 09:14
@31
>Because EVN=amateur efforts. JVNs just win due to polish, money, competence and a tradition of standards.

again, zillions of amateur JVNs exist but the "my first renpy game" level of JVN doesn't usually end up on VNDB because no one cares to add them. Also, if you filter for RenPy, you will filter out several JVNs as well. Many of them use it these days, sometimes originally, sometimes for the english translation if there is one.

There are "professional" EVNs. They're still generally very low-budget compared to JVNs. They're more comparable to established doujin circles / DLsite. Anyone in the Western world making a game with the budget level comparable to a JVN studio would include features that would get it kicked out of VNDB for not being a "real VN" anymore.

Depending on what you want out of a VN, you may be completely right to filter out all EVNs and focus solely on JVNs. If you want a 50-hour game with full voice acting and a ton of h-scenes? Stick with JVNs. I don't think anyone in the western market is ever going to provide that, for reasons that have nothing to do with "hurr westerners are inferior"
#37 by ginseigou
2019-05-05 at 10:01
Anyone in the Western world making a game with the budget level comparable to a JVN studio would include features that would get it kicked out of VNDB for not being a "real VN" anymore.
Sounds like you don't like it.
There already exists a number of very good games which are quite close to vns (e.g. Telltale and Quantic Dream games). Might as well add them, don't you agree?Last modified on 2019-05-05 at 10:53
#38 by sanahtlig
2019-05-05 at 15:12
Quality original English erogames have a problem of discoverability. Consider Japanese and English amateur works.

For Japanese titles: I can go to JP DLsite, sort on total downloads for a given combination of tags, and get a quick list of games that people were sufficiently interested in to spend money on--with synopses, screenshots, and typically with customer reviews as well.

Now consider the options for English erogames. I can go to the sites for flash games, which list number of free downloads (no investment required and therefore a poor metric of quality) and usually have no synopsis or screenshots. I can go to Steam... which actively discriminates against erogames. I can go to Patreon and sort by top-funded producers of adult content... and find a list of games in-progress with all the relevant content hidden behind a paywall. I can visit "top hentai game" sites and maybe get screenshots and a synopsis, but no data-driven metric for quality or appeal. Or I could use VNDB, which discards most of the games I'd be interested in for not using a text box.

In short, the options available for discovering quality Western erogames are pretty terrible. Not surprisingly, this discourages the production of quality content in the first place. The prospect of arbitrary bans on the main income generating sites (Steam, Patreon) certainly doesn't help matters.Last modified on 2019-05-05 at 15:13
#39 by usagi
2019-05-05 at 16:54
@36
If you want a 50-hour game with full voice acting and a ton of h-scenes? Stick with JVNs. I don't think anyone in the western market is ever going to provide that, for reasons that have nothing to do with "hurr westerners are inferior"
The LetterLast modified on 2019-05-05 at 16:56
#40 by sanahtlig
2019-05-05 at 17:05
@39: This quote from the developer seems to undermine your argument.
Yep, no worries! This is a serious game and sex is the last thing the characters would want to be doing, lol.

Not to mention that developer's later games don't have ero-content. If I remember correctly from the Kickstarter, many of their employees work in a country where porn is banned.Last modified on 2019-05-05 at 17:09
#41 by usagi
2019-05-05 at 17:09
@40
Still, there are some bed scenes as well.
#42 by truetakuma
2019-05-08 at 05:51
I totally agree with OP.

1) Ooelvn got enough time and patreon$ support to prove themselves (the potential is there). But what type of content we mostly got? few exceptions apart, cheap memes or cancerous 3D porn (when not some shallow political statement)

2) You cant take oelvns readers seriously if they give objectively bad vns a high score just because they are not well known. That's basically shilling for a game.

3) Apart a few pretending to be philosophical oelvns, Im yet to find any oevlns that have a solid, well-written, community praised story and fully voiced as Grisaia, Fate or even Majikoi (for the eroge level).

Solution: Western developers and publishers should focus in translating japanese vns rather than attempting (and failing) to create original art and story.Last modified on 2019-05-08 at 05:53
#43 by kiru
2019-05-08 at 07:09
^Grisaia, Fate and Majikoi are all entry-level stuff. It's fine for that, but that's about it. Once you are past it, it gets interesting, and Japan isn't any better than the West there.

Obviously, if you want a random moege, may as well take one from Japan. They shit those out every month, several ones even.Last modified on 2019-05-08 at 07:10
#44 by kratoscar2008
2019-05-08 at 08:37
I only want them to stop 2 things: using shitty 3d programs and hire good western artists and stop focusing on wanting to bang your family.
Sadly seems like it will be a while before any of that happens, doesnt helps that Patreon stalls development.
There is certainly interest in western porn games, Summertime Saga makes 50k + on patreon as well as Milfy City so the userbase exists though it might be a Lightning in a bottle stuff.
My interest mainly lies as nameable protagonists are very common in there which gives them an edge over most japanese offerings.
#45 by sanahtlig
2019-05-08 at 15:28
stop focusing on wanting to bang your family
The imouto and childhood friend (cousin) genres in JVNs say hi.Last modified on 2019-05-08 at 15:31
#46 by butterflygrrl
2019-05-08 at 15:39
the only good thing i can say about the poser porn games is that at least some of them do try to put effort into making the best use of what they have - since they can reposition those models however they like, they'll have scenes with lots of movement, angle changes, lots of choices about different things you want to do or different positions or whatever.

they're still ugly (and still bottom-of-the-barrel porn writing afaik)

but it's the one benefit they've got over decent 2d art. no indie artist can afford to make a long game with that many scene changes and variations if they have to hand-draw it all.Last modified on 2019-05-08 at 15:40
#47 by kratoscar2008
2019-05-08 at 17:27
#45 they are usually one heroine of many. Meanwhile nearly every western game has the story center around baging your family. Incest is one of the most exploted fetishes right now.
If it wasnt because of patreon ban there would had been much more.Last modified on 2019-05-08 at 17:28
#48 by butterflygrrl
2019-05-08 at 18:20
>nearly every western game has the story center around baging your family

Only the 3d poser porn ones really as far as I know, and like one traditional VN on Steam that's about hyponotising your family who all have huge breasts.

it's not a common thing in EVNs overall.
#49 by kratoscar2008
2019-05-08 at 22:50
Its actually pretty big, the ones that do the best are the ones with incest as its biggest sell.
I mean 3d posers makes the most of evn which they usually have incest as the draw. Only Kickstarted or sold as complete games avoid this.
#50 by butterflygrrl
2019-05-09 at 11:02
mostly i think it just shows what kind of games people are looking at. like, a lot of people would say "99% of OELVNs are weeb trash set in high school with badly-written japanese names" and i don't think that's true either but i see how they get that idea.

and then someone upthread said most games are cheap memes, and i'm not even sure which games they mean by that! like, does that mean the games like "stay stay north korea" and "date hitler" or do they mean the games like "instead of dating birds, date refrigerators, lol!"?

too much effort for me to make an actual survey of 2019 releases and see what's REALLY most common though.

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