Tag Cleanup #1 - Unused Tags
|#1 by warfoki|
2019-06-24 at 16:01
|I took over the tag and trait moderation from u51 a little over 6 years ago (2013. 06. 08., to be precise) and the first thing I did was a complete Tag Overhaul (t4187, t4188, t4189), mostly to clean up messy tags and to have a standard style for descriptions and whatnot. It was only supposed to be phase one and deeper look into changing the structure of some tag-families and cleaning up redundant, useless tags was supposed to follow.|
Except this kicked up some mess and with me being brand new to the entire thing and not having all that much self.confidence, I ended up postponing it... and then nothing came of it for years. So, I figured I'll do it now. Learning from the past, instead of just dumping everything here at the same time, I plan this to be a 3 part process:
1. Cleaning up unused tags.
2. Making structural changes, potentially cleaning up used, but overall useless / redundant tags.
3. Aligning the tags with the traits: making tags for some trait only stuff, traits for some tag only items.
As you can see from the title, this is the thread for the first phase. I'm not going to give an end-date for this discussion, instead I'd encourage anyone caring about this stuff to get their opinions, criticisms in asap. If I see that the discussion is mostly dead, I'll bump the thread with a deadline, at which point I'll delete every tag that is on the "to be deleted list".
Now, first things first, here's a list of tags that I consider "unused" or "under-utilized" at the very least. To be qualified for this list a tag has to be at least 6 months old (eg. it had enough time to be used) and be used less than 5 times. Note that the usage of the child tags count towards the usage of their parent tags as well. Before someone would come around and state that "but some of these shouldn't be deleted", let me emphasize something:
THE FIRST LIST IS NOT A LIST OF TAGS THAT SHOULD BE DELETED! !!!!
That list is under it. The first list is simply there to show you which tags are open for deletion for not having been used enough. That's all.
Without further ado, here's a list of mostly unused tags:
Test of Courage
Vampire Hunter Protagonist
Space Pirate Heroine
Mecha Pilot Hero
World War I
Rape Victim Hero
Childishly Violent Hero
Group (4+) Footjob
Non-blood-related Brother/Brother Incest
Only Uke Heroes
Only Avoidable Rape by Others
Only Avoidable Heroine Rape by Others
Side Character Rape by Others
Only Avoidable Heroine Having Sex with Others
Male on Transwoman
Transwoman on Male
Infant Support Character
Clown Support Character
Ganguro Support Character
Fantasy Style Ranger Protagonist
P.E. Teacher Protagonist
Protagonist Based on a Mythological Character
Protagonist with Monocle
Protagonist with Regenerative Hymen
All Brother Heroes
Blood-related Father Hero
Non-blood-related Father Hero
Hero(ine)'s Father as a Hero
Protagonist's Employee as Hero
Protagonist's Grandfather as a Hero
Protagonist's Son as a Hero
Performing Arts Director Hero
P.E. Teacher Hero
Twin Tail Hero
Heroine Rape by Others
Heroine with Baby Complex
Celestial Body Hero
Rape Victim Hero
Delusional HeroNameable Units
Facial Hair Option
System Time Events
Real Time with Pause
Player Voice Interactivity
Trap Transformation Ending
There are a lot of tags above that I find useful. In fact, I'd keep most of them. As such, for the sake of simplicity, I'll list the tags that I would get rid of and my reasoning as to why.
Tags to be deleted:
Test of Courage - If you compare this to the other tags under Story Events, it becomes pretty obvious that this is just oddly specific. It's a common enough trope that I'm dead certain that way, WAY more than 4 VNs feature it, and yet over 9 months nobody bothered to tag them. That's telling me that nobody is really searching / using this tag, and since I don't think the tag represents any value beyond that, I think it's kinda useless.
Parasites - Literally the only VNs featuring this tag are the ones that have "parasite" in their actual title, making this tag completely redundant and useless. And that's after 11 months.
Primates - This was a tag that I wanted to delete during the original tag overhaul 6 years ago for being underused. But at that point the tag was very new, so I figured I'll give it time. 6 years later it's still on this list, so might as well get rid of it.
Male on Transwoman & Transwoman on Male - I'm usually very lenient on sexual tags, but these two are only featured on one VN between the two of them, a furry OELVN. Transwoman on Male is completely unused.
Paladin Protagonist - 10 years old tag with a grand total of 2 uses. I see no reason why we need to split this from its parent, Knight Protagonist.
Fantasy Style Ranger Protagonist - 9 year old tag, 3 uses. Oddly specific and the entire DnD class thing doesn't really fit into most VN settings.
Heroine Triplets - NOT FOR DELETION, but to change it: it should include quadruplet, quintuplets, sextuplets, etc. Maybe rename it to Triplet+ Heroines or something.
Heroine with Baby Complex - I remember I had serious doubts if this tag will ever be useful when I approved it. But I figured it's harmless and if nobody uses it, we can get rid of later. Considering that over 2 year this tag has managed to rack up a grand total of 3 uses, I think it's time I delete it.
Infant Support Character - Utterly pointless.
Clown Support Character - Utterly pointless as well.
Ganguro Support Character - See above.
Nameable Units - 7 years old tag, 2 uses. I don't see the point. This tag's usability is limited to team based strategy / RPG VN hybrids to begin with, and such feature is rare even among none-hybrid games of those genres. way too niche and is not an important feature anyway.
These are the tags that I'd get rid of right now. There are some others I'm kinda on a the fence about (Facial Hair Option, Arkanoid Game, Clicker Game, Concentration (Game), etc.), but I'll sleep on those.Last modified on 2019-06-24 at 16:45
|#2 by kratoscar2008|
2019-06-24 at 16:26
|Why is the rape by others considered for deletion? I see a lot of tagged games. Well if anything maybe fold it into avoidable rape but instead limit it only to others as im sure when most peopleread avoidable rape they automatically think of anyone but the MC (Think most people are okay with MC doing it)|
The transexual tags are indeed useless but they will eventually be useful as oelvns grow, not that much but it will get a few more games tagged.
I say Orc heroine must stay, again Oelvn might salvage it eventually.
|#3 by warfoki|
2019-06-24 at 16:28
THE FIRST LIST IS NOT A LIST OF TAGS THAT SHOULD BE DELETED!
It's in all caps for fuck's sake... Maybe try reading the entire post...
As for the Transwoman tags: yeah, that's what I expected, but they are 13 months old now, so over a year and basically nobody bothered to use them. How long should I wait?Last modified on 2019-06-24 at 16:35
|#4 by kratoscar2008|
2019-06-24 at 16:36
|>That list is under it. The first list is simply there to show you which tags are open for deletion for not having been used enough. That's all.|
Thats why i said
>Why is the rape by others considered for deletion?
|#5 by warfoki|
2019-06-24 at 16:42
|What don't you get here? Like, the first list is not the tags I want to delete, they are simply the ones that have been here for 6 months at least and have less than 5 applications. I don't think I could have made that any more obvious. Like, I literally spelled this out.|
The second list is the one the features all the tags that I'm actually considering the deletion of. And not a single rape tag is on that list.Last modified on 2019-06-24 at 16:43
|#6 by kratoscar2008|
2019-06-24 at 16:47
|You say they are open to deletion and im asking why a tag with so many VNs under it is even on the list at all.|
|#7 by [deleted]|
2019-06-24 at 16:54
|If a tag isn't being used a lot but isn't being misused, I don't see any harm in leaving it.|
Regarding the Male on Transwoman and Transwoman on Male tags specifically, they parallel the Trap on Male and Futanari on X/Male on Futanari tags, so I'd suggest not deleting them because if other examples pop up, someone's more likely to misuse those tags than to realize there were tags specifically mentioning transwomen and suggest undeleting them.
|#8 by shroomlord|
2019-06-24 at 17:01
|Judy probably warrants the transwoman tags rather than the trap tags.|
|#9 by kiru|
2019-06-24 at 17:33
|@7: There's kind of harm in leaving tags that are barely used: They are useless. If you search for it, you don't get results you can trust. People don't tag games with it. In other words: Clutter. We have SO MANY tags already, that every tag less is a good thing, given the current system. The system really needs work though. The tag cloud became too big over all the years.|
Ideally you have a handy list of a rather limited amount of tags, so they actually get used. It's kinda weird to dispose of a ton of tags at this point though, so we'd need to rework the system a little. Searching for a minor tag offering few results can easily be because the tag is not really used. So a fitting parent tag should be an option to be automatically included. Right now, you have to do those things manually. Speaking of manually, every tag would need to have a "higher tier tag" defined for such a feature. This doesn't work automatically, due to multiple parent tags being possible.
Also while at it, it would be nice if the result list had it marked if a child-tag is the reason a VN is returned on it. (Likewise if parent-tag inclusion would become a thing, it should be marked as well)
Yet, this still doesn't fix the tag adding issue. If you ever tried adding tags for a VN, you know what I mean. There's WAY too much. What do you even add? This probably needs a lot more attention than deleting minor tags. Again, you'd need to delete too much to make it count in the first place. So while the whole thing in this thread was a nice idea 6 years ago, it's no longer enough to really even bother. There needs to be something else.
|#10 by sakurakoi|
2019-06-24 at 18:05
Infant Support Character - Utterly pointless.Incidentally I just read Oreaka a few days ago~
There's kind of harm in leaving tags that are barely used: They are useless. If you search for it, you don't get results you can trust. People don't tag games with it. In other words: Clutterand that's "harm", kinda? Kinda reminds me of the current zeitgeist where passive aggressiveness is a thing and deemed as something quite terrible "People being reluctant to accept my opinion as the one and only truth? They not only intend to harm me but already do, my fee-fees!"
"you don't get results you can trust" false, obviously. The little that is tagged may even be less mistagged than other frequently used tags.
In any event it is but a fact that especially newer tags do not get used precisely because they are new "Something like that can actually be tagged?!" - My thoughts a few minutes ago.
The problem of the Infant Support Character is obviously that to begin with Child Support Character reads "between the stages of birth and puberty" while for Baby the definition is vague and would have needed to be defined as "up to 4 years old".
Deleting tags should really only be done when it should have never been approved in the first place. Namely:
Test of Courage,
Clown Support Character,
Ganguro Support Character,
Fantasy Style Ranger Protagonist,
Facial Hair Option,
and more (ain't gonna go through the whole first list)
Utterly mundane, over specific, nothing anyone would ever search for.
Tags with respective traits like the heroine with baby complex simply do not get tagged for whatever reason.
|#11 by [deleted]|
2019-06-24 at 18:07
|I definitely agree there should be a way to filter out child tags when searching with a parent tag.|
|#12 by maggierobot|
2019-06-24 at 19:11
|Idk Hanafuda seems more useless than Heroine with Baby Complex imho|
Also agree with kiru's suggestion of marking if a VN is listed in the parent tag search results because of a child tag.
And I'm not sure if it would helpful at this point, but it should exist a way to prevent people using the parent tag if there's already a more specific child tag being used. Like, if a VN is tagged with Bad Ending with Story it's extremely redundant to also tag it with Bad Endings, or tagging Sexual Content and Ahegao if there's already Double Peace Ahegao and so on. That only makes the VN page really cluttered. (I have a feeling that it could have a situation where this is not just redundancy but I cant think of one right now)
|#13 by warfoki|
2019-06-24 at 20:17
|I mean, you can search for VNs, include the parent tag, exclude the child tags and get what you want. Sure, it's a multiple step process that could be streamlined, but that's not in my jurisdiction, only Yorhel can do anything about that.|
As for everything else, I'll note down all the feedback and post an upgraded "to be deleted list" tomorrow. Generally, if it's harmless to keep and there could be potential future uses, I tend to opt for keeping it. But sometimes I can be too lenient on that, hence this thread.
|#14 by alto|
2019-06-24 at 21:31
|I don't agree with the "clutter" argument, indeed I'd say the opposite. To me specific tags rank close to the most useful feature of the site (thank you warfoki for your continued efforts!). The more specific the better at finding exactly what you want; the cut off point of ~5 titles like the first list is reasonable to me. The number of tags on VNs can get silly but that's a UI issue IMO. Even with 10x fewer tags the tag cloud on popular VNs would be massive (and maybe less helpful as people will be more likely to go "close enough" with the more limited tags available) while making finding VNs from tags harder. Maybe an option for table display like EGS? Though looking at the page there for Fate/stay night maybe its not much better...|
Some redundancy is spoilers where the more generic tag might be OK but the more specific child tag would a spoiler so both are tagged. Some tags are also the opposite of their parent like Reverse Missionary. In other cases I agree it would be cool to collapse to the most specific tag.
Reading the description of Heroine with Baby Complex, loosening the idea of it it from "will do anything", "obsessed" etc to just "really wants the protagonist's baby" would fit a bunch more games. Aka-chan Hoshii na ~Kyou kara Hajimaru Love Love Ecchi~ recently, some pure love and netori games come to mind.
Scat Filter would be clearer as "Scat display option"Last modified on 2019-06-24 at 21:44
|#15 by kratoscar2008|
2019-06-24 at 21:44
|Does the baby comples has to be a character trait since the start? I can think of a fex VNs but the complex usually starts at some point in a route.|
Woupd wanting the baby due to duty or necessity count?
|#16 by barfboy|
2019-06-24 at 22:10
|I'm going to argue both ways at once.|
There are too many useless tags.
There are still many tags that can be created.
Suicidal Heroine is brand new, and it can be very useful in the future. The fact that it hasn't been created till now is a shame, suicidal is certainly not the same as suicide which was the only tag we had till now (I think) and potential for the tag is high. i can think of the girl in Princess Evangile that has to be talked out of jumping off the bell tower for example, nobody has tagged that one yet because the tag is still so new.
Infertile Heroine is another fairly recent tag that can be very useful in the future. I only knew of the one example (which I tagged, it's the spoiler one) but there will certainly be more to come. The potential for drama is too high for there to be only a couple of examples. I expect it will be very useful in the years to come.
Heroine Sisters is almost brand new, the fact that it didn't exist till this year is shocking. Until now only twin sister heroines or protagonist's sisters was available yet the number of heroines that are just sisters is huge. I see that tag getting big fast.
These new ones show that everything to tag hasn't been thought of yet so I don't think we have too many tags. I think we have too many useless ones.
|#17 by maggierobot|
2019-06-24 at 22:12
|@14 I knew I was forgetting about something. You're definitely right about the spoilers part. Things like Blood Related/Not Blood Related incest would not work right in some cases with what I proposed.|
And I guess I misunderstood something here about the search feature. I thought that searching for the parent tag would include the things tagged with only the child by default. If that's not the case, then yeah, removing tags would make searching harder.
Maybe the collapse could work as display on VN page only? (If that's even possible to implement)
|#18 by blue|
2019-06-24 at 22:22
|I have read over your list of tags for deletion and I must say that I agree to having all of them disposed of (with Heroine Triplets being an exception). On the other hand, these are my opinions on some of the tags placed on this list.|
Fantasy Style Ranger Protagonist - I find it strange that this tag is not used very much, since I would normally expect at least a handful of fantasy stories to have a protagonist of this archetype. It is possible that this is because the tag's name is too specific while the word "ranger" itself is not specific enough compared tag names such as "Archer Protagonist" (which does not seem to be present on the VNDB), or even "Hunter Protagonist" (which also is not present on the VNDB). Fantasy Style Ranger Protagonist may be better of being split into one or both of these tags.
Heroine Triplets - Though I have yet to come across anything related to Heroine Triplets in the form of a visual novel, I have seen something similar elsewhere so I definitely agree with your idea for it. Making this tag broader may help it find more use.
Paladin Protagonist - I also find this tag to be redundant while its description seems too specific in certain areas for the tag to find broader than its already limited use. While the Knight Protagonist tag does not seem to describe much, it may be better off to use this tag, Superhero Protagonist or other similar better-used tags over Paladin Protagonist.Last modified on 2019-06-24 at 22:24
|#19 by warfoki|
2019-06-24 at 23:42
I thought that searching for the parent tag would include the things tagged with only the child by default.
It does. However, you can exclude the child tag(s) if you only want to find VNs where only the parent tag is used by using the search function of the database. For example here is the list for every VN tagged with Magic, but not with Magic School or Mages Association: link
This is obviously imperfect, for multiple reasons:
1. No way to search for a parent tag itself. The current method excludes VNs where both Magic and one of its child-tags are present.
2. Some tags have a ton of child tags and excluding them all is a pain. Like if you want to find things directly tagged with Comedy, well, good luck.
Now, the idea here is that child tags should always imply the parent tag by default, therefore searching for the parent tag includes the child tags as a way to make the search more inclusive and reduce the need to use redundant tags. This, in theory is well and good, except the system is not this perfect unfortunately.
Not all child tags imply the parent tag the same way or in the same depth. Like Teasing can easily happen in a VN that isn't, in general, a comedy. And yet every VN tagged with it will show up if you filter VNs for Comedy.
Then there are the issues of simply missing tags, thanks to the tag / traits system organically evolving with user input. This has a huge number of examples especially under Sexual Content. A lot of tags there work both as tags for something specific and parent tags for something more generic.
An example: Fingering and Anal Fingering. Initially there was only Fingering and both anal and vaginal fingering was tagged with it. Then, seeing that the actions are different enough and usually come up in different context enough, Anal Fingering was added. So it would stand to reason, to now add vaginal fingering, no? Well, no, actually. See, there was a 3 year period in between the two tags here, the duration of which everything featuring either anal or vaginal fingering got tagged with the same thing, so now Fingering features a lot of examples for both. At this point I have 3 options:
1) Essentially have an unwritten agreement to use Fingering for vaginal fingering, and use the more specific Anal Fingering instead when it can apply. This keeps Fingering and causes no mistagging, since as Anal Fingering is its child tag, Fingering being used for both anal and vaginal fingering on a lot of pages is not technically mistagging, since things tagged with Anal Fingering anyway this way, thanks to how the search engine works. At worst, this creates some redundancy, which isn't that big of a deal. Downside is that you have no way of searching for Vaginal Fingering, because excluding Anal Fingering from the search will exclude VNs that have both (which, tends to be the case most of the time) and will also list VNs that might only ana fingering, it's just that they've been tagged before the child tag was created and nobody bothered to correct it since then. With 25k VNs listed in the database, that tends to happen. This is the current method of handling the issue.
2) Create a new Vaginal Fingering tag under Fingering. While this prevents Fingering from being retroactively mistagged, it will also make a mess, in the sense that people might still use Fingering for that, instead of the new tag, which at this point would not be correct. It also increases the redundancy, since now people might tag both the new Vaginal Fingering and Anal Fingering, but if Fingering has more than one vote on that page, they won't be able to get rid of that. Sure, technically they can ask a tagmod to override, except people basically never do that. In the 6 years I've been doing this I can count on one hand how many times I got asked to override a tag for it being bullshit. Also, people searching exclusively for Vaginal Fingering will find a very poor selection, since overwhelming majority of Vns featuring that would be just tagged with Fingering. Considering the sheer number of tags with this issue, if I'd switched to this method, it'd take years for the database to self-correct with user input alone and I cannot possibly fix thousands upon thousands of tag applications myself manually. Plus to prevent further unnecessary use of Fingering, I should make it into a meta tag, except that would remove hundreds, in some cases thousands of tags from VN pages. And if I'd consistently use this method across the database, we would be talking about purging probably 100+ tags and tens of thousands of their applications. It would be a MAJOR hit to the searchability of the database that would take probably years to fully recover from. And we have more specific tags coming up all the time, this would repeatedly happen, wouldn't be just a one time big purge.
3) Repurpose Fingering as Vaginal Fingering, then make a new Fingering metatag. This would prevent the constant purging of tag applications in the 2. method from being necessary, however it would cause serious mistagging retroactively. Again, Fingering was use for both action for 3 years and a lot of those applications never got specified or corrected. If this method is used across the board, we would have 50-100 tags being retroactively mistagged en-masse, probably hitting thousands of VNs with retroactive mistagging.
I've been using method 1, because that is the least disruptive retroactively and that keeps the most out of the efforts of the people tagging things in the past. The downside of that is that as newer and newer tags are being introduced, the accuracy of the tagging system is slowly eroding, since we are missing specific tags in the system and instead non-specific tags are being used, making it practically impossible to search for a lot of the more specific features. And as time goes by, potentially switching to any other method is going to break more and more things.
There are no perfect solutions here. The only way to avoid such issues would have been coming up with the entire detailed tag structure up front, set it in stone and never changing it again. That's obviously not realistic however.Last modified on 2019-06-24 at 23:50
|#20 by rampaa|
2019-06-25 at 00:16
Plus to prevent further unnecessary use of Fingering, I should make it into a meta tag, except that would remove hundreds, in some cases thousands of tags from VN pages.
Maybe this is a silly idea but, can't there be semi-meta tags for that? Semi-meta tags would act like meta tags in the sense that they wouldn't allow any (further) tagging, but they would act like normal tags in the sense that they can be used for searching, hence the name.
If this can be implemented Fingering couldn't be used for further tagging but people could still make searches with it. And I think this would yield better results than option 1.
|#21 by skorpiondeath|
2019-06-25 at 00:33
|I like rampaa idea... more than a "semi-meta" tag a "disabled" flag could suffice. |
That could prevent adding more entries simply by filtering disabled tags on the combo box during insertion, but at the same time a disabled tag it's still in the DB and it's useful for searching purposes and by keeping database integrity with already inserted entries.
Downvoting older misused entries and avoiding newer tag insertions could lead to times where the disabled tag can be safely transformed to a meta-tag, maybe after reaching an acceptable threshold.
This idea imply the need to add a "disabled" column to the DB and the code to handle it so it's not an "on the fly" option.Last modified on 2019-06-25 at 00:43
|#22 by yorhel|
2019-06-25 at 05:51
|EDIT: Let's not derail this thread, I've created t12507 for suggestions on the tagging system itself.Last modified on 2019-06-25 at 05:58|
|#23 by warfoki|
2019-06-26 at 20:29
|Bumping this thread, since the discussion kinda died down here. As such I'll clean up the useless tags on Saturday (CET), unless we have an active discussion on them still at that point.|
The current list of tags that I'll delete:
Test of Courage
Fantasy Style Ranger Protagonist
Heroine with Baby Complex
Infant Support Character
Clown Support Character
Ganguro Support Character
Currently these are the tags that will be purged. I removed the transwoman tags from the list, maybe it'll see use. I HIGHLY doubt it, but whatever. If you want to argue for the deletion of anything else on the first list or against the deletion of any of these tags, NOW is the time to do so. I won't take complaints after I clear them out.Last modified on 2019-06-26 at 20:29
|#24 by rampaa|
2019-06-26 at 20:56
|Test of Courage is a well known trope. I am not sure why it's not been used much but it's not like it's prone to misuse or entirely pointless. So I'd want VNDB to keep it.|
As for Heroine with Baby Complex, I think it's a good fetish material. Maybe its definition can be loosened up as suggested in #14.
|#25 by warfoki|
2019-06-26 at 21:29
|The thing is, I've seen potential in both, that's why they are here in the first place. But nobody is using them. And if nobody is using them, then what is the point.|
As for test of courage, sure it's a trope, but we are not TVTropes. The rest of the stuff under Story Events can all be central themes, plot points. Test of Courage is nothing like that, it's kinda like the obligatory beach episode in every bloody anime: accomplishes nothing, but it's there, because it's a trope and provides potential for fanservice and tired old jokes.
I could keep Heroine with Baby Complex, but this is something really specific again. If I loosen it up like it was suggested, then it's going in the other spectrum, and now it's too vague. I'd say well over half of all the nukiges have pregnancy endings and the heroines screaming something like "I'm going to get pregnant!" or "Do it inside, I want your baby!". Thing is, overwhelming majority of these actually have Impregnation or some variation of it already tagged. The number of games where the heroine wants to have that baby, but ends up not doing it, are a tiny minority, and in every other case this tag is redundant, that is, I think, the main reason why everybody just forgets to use it.Last modified on 2019-06-26 at 21:30
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