Tagging system improvements

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#1 by yorhel
2019-06-25 at 05:57
Continuing from t12504.

...searching for parent-tags only...
That's... do-able, I guess. And I can see some fringe cases where this may be useful, but in general? Can someone elaborate on how this will be used? Because it's going to significantly complicate the UI if you want to have this feature in a general and consistent manner.

...separate "meta" flag into "not-searchable" and "not-applyable" flags...
Fine with me, can implement this if warfoki a use for it.
#2 by kiru
2019-06-25 at 08:01
What I'd like to see:

Something like a clear tag tier list.
Basically, every tag would have a tier. Tier 1 are the BIG guys. The most used ones. Basic genre's like Comedy or whatever.
Then a tier 2 which are more specific things. (i.e. what kind of heroine) Meta tags like Heroine could turn into a tier 1 tag called for example "bishoujo game" (I don't know why we don't have that in the first place, given how otome exists..). After all bishoujo games have heroines. Heroines look up to "bishoujo game" and consider it a tier parent. Same for Hero becoming otome game. Right now that one is a child of many other tags, which makes sense in one way. However, it's one of the most major classifications of games so it should be a tier 1 tag. It's almost big enough to be a tier 0 tag, as it's where it all starts. The very first classification of a VN is, if it's a bishoujo game, an otome game or something else.
Like this you would go down in tiers to more and more specific tags.

What does this even change? Well, for one, it would make each tag on each tier roughly similar in importance, making it easier to look at them for adding and searching. You could also make it easier depicting tags, as you could look only at tier 1 and 2 tags, to remove utterly specific things from the cloud. It's mostly something to keep order with the huge amount of tags we have. Relying solely on parent and child relations ends up very weird as it is right now.
That said, as a result, some tags would be hard to give a tier X tag as a parent. Maybe just don't give them a parent at all? (or rather, tier 0 as a parent) Utilize meta tags there? Multiple options exist there. For example, if "bishoujo" and "otome" game aren't so liked for tier 1 as a tier parent for the different heroines/heroes, hero and heroine could stay as meta tags and just not show. (Or perhaps they SHOULD show, so you can click on them and see all "heroine" or "hero" tags afterwards?) After all what do we use for games that aren't one of the two and their characters given how we currently simply use hero and heroine in those as well. (i.e. Umineko) If this system however would be adapted, one could use this as a chance to fix it. Would obviously need a good amount of tags for that.


Summed up:
-Tiers are separate from typical parent and child relations and manually set for each tag existing.
-Each tag has ONE parent x tier(s) above. Again, this can be separate from actual parents. ONE parent, is important here. Something like Otome Game having 2 parents wouldn't be a thing here. As a result, you have an actual tree of tags starting from every tier 1 tag. A tier 0 tag starting it all could and probably should be added. (i.e. visual novel or whatever..) Then we'd actually have a tag tree where the level of the nodes says something.

What would this do?
-The tag cloud can be changed to only show specific tiers. Clicking on a tier 1 tag could show all applied tier 2 tags with it as its tier parent. You could also make fancy tree graphs when clicking on a higher tier tag, if you really wanted.
-It would make it easier to add tags, as there will be only a few tier 1 tags. It makes it easier to actually have an overview over the "important tags". In addition to that, adding a tag would automatically add their parent as well. If that tag has a parent itself, it would also get added.


I know this would be a lot of work, but we have so many tags. I'm also sure there's a ton of issues with this, that I haven't talked about. For example, one parent only, does that even work for every tag? What IS even important, isn't that totally subjective? But I figured I'd drop this idea in this thread to at least get a little discussion about it, how realistic this would even be to get and so on. It's basically a completely different system of ordering tags than what we have right now. But with so many tags, it gets harder and harder to keep an overview.
#3 by sakurakoi
2019-06-25 at 08:19
After all bishoujo games have heroines
But not all works with heroines are bishoujo ones~

Female Love Interest(s) and Male Love Interest(s) would be more fitting. Not that I am against Genre, on the contrary, I too am severely missing it but alas...

A tier 0 tag starting it all could and probably should be added. (i.e. visual novel or whatever..)
ADV/VN, SLG, RPG, Action. DLsite got that system~
Though it is also rather T1
#4 by warfoki
2019-06-25 at 09:05
Well, searching for parent-tags only would be important mostly for 2 reasons:

1) Because I use method 1 from t12504.19, this is the only way to search for stuff like vaginal fingering, single blowjob, etc. If semi-meta tags and traits are implemented, I can switch to method two and improve the accuracy of the system without sacrificing current searchability.

2) Because some of the tags are not completely or equally invoked by their child tags. For example if someone is searching for Comedy, they are going to find, among other things:

Homeless Joshi ***Gakusei - A depressing as fuck rapefest with a fucking Utsuge tag, just because it's also tagged with Title Parody.

Tokyo Alice - Tagged with Nakige at 3.0 tag strength, and overall has a serious, non-comedic tone, but still shows up because the original has Kanji Puns and Super Deformed CG's.

Yuuryou Kenkou Seito no Chou Shuuchi Taiken - A somewhat creepy Nukige that is all about abusing a teenage girl who is forced to go out naked for a week (hentai plot), not played for laughs at all. Shows up because it's tagged with Teasing. (Which might be mistagged actually, since that's not supposed to be for erotic teasing and petting, but that just brings up the problem that the mistagging of any of the child tags of Comedy further contaminates the searchability for funny VNs.)

Black Wolves Saga -Bloody Nightmare- - A decidedly non-comedic VN ripe with tags like Utsuge, Dark Fantasy, Psychological Trauma, Madness, etc. just because it also happen to utilize Super Deformed CG's.

And I could go on, but I think you get the picture. Sure, you could say that I should just remove those child tags from under Comedy. Which is fair at first glance, but where to put them? If I just toss out everything currently under Drama, Fantasy, Romance, etc. that don't strictly invoke their parent tag 100%, then these parent tags will be awfully lonely and Other Elements will be even more overbloated. And it's not like Super Deformed CG's for example is in the wrong place all that much, it IS a comedic tool and makes sense to be linked to comedy. It's just that genres outside of comedy can use comedic tools too. Like some scenes in Die Hard always crack me up, that doesn't make the movie a comedy though.

I could make a new Comedy meta tag, and turn the current tag into a child tag, but that would mean that now searching for Comedy won't have stuff with Slice of Life Comedy showing up, even though they are clearly relevant.

So while making ALL parent tags searchable without their child tags is probably unnecessary, having this as a settable option for some select few tags and traits would seriously help with the searchability of the database.

___________________________________________

As for separate searchable, but not taggable meta tags: It would be VERY useful. I could switch to method 2 then to improve the accuracy of the tag system without purging already existing applications of tags. All I'd like to ask is to please implement this system for traits as well, since there are some issues like this there as well as t3314.1726 shows.

___________________________________________

Wasn't part of the original conversation, but since I have your attention now apparently, I'd like to nag you a bit on making the rest of the database cross-searchable. In terms of the tagging system, being able to search VNs with characters having a certain trait would make it easier for everyone to find things, I could get rid of some trait-like tags.. Making the cast cross-searchable as well would be nice too. Right now if have a hodge-podge of miscellaneous info that I remember from the past, it's kinda hard to search for it. Like, let's suppose that I remember I played VN that was drama focused, with a blond sister heroine with a hairflower and that she had the same voice actress as one of the characters in Rance 03 Leazas Kanraku. Right now I have to manually cross-reference three different searches to figure out that I was looking for Astraythem.

___________________________________________

Edit:
For example, one parent only, does that even work for every tag?

Nope, it doesn't. It really, REALLY, REEEEAAAAAALLLYY doesn't. That is, unless you want to completely redo how the tag system works from absolute scratch, to which I say good luck finding a sucker to do that for ya, because I'm out.Last modified on 2019-06-25 at 09:22
#5 by dk382
2019-06-25 at 10:37
Honestly? It feels like *most of the time* I search using a tag that has child tags, I get inappropriate results I'm not looking for because they're tagged with child tags that aren't what I'm looking for. This can make tag filtering frustrating to use. I would happily welcome the ability to search for parent tags only.

I've also had times where I really wanted to search using meta tags but couldn't, so having a separate class that is searchable would be nice. In my case, it was for the hero/heroine meta tags, as I figured that would be a convenient way to search for all games with female/male romantic interests (or to exclude them), but that's not allowed and you have to concoct an absolute mess of tag inclusions and exclusions in your filtering options to get something close. Seems like a useful enough use case to me.Last modified on 2019-06-25 at 10:44
#6 by yorhel
2019-06-25 at 10:59
Something like a clear tag tier list.
Not a bad idea per se (the trait system already has a limited form of this, with "trait groups"), but I don't think this has a high priority for now. There's far too many other things that need improving, first.

I could switch to method 2 then to improve the accuracy of the tag system without purging already existing applications of tags.
Just so I properly understand this, you mean to do this?
- Mark Fingering as "searchable but not taggable" (while remaining current tag votes?)
- Create a new "Vaginal Fingering" sub-tag and tell everyone to use that instead.

All I'd like to ask is to please implement this system for traits as well
Aye.

being able to search VNs with characters having a certain trait would make it easier for everyone to find things
Oh boy, I've really been holding that off for waaaay too long. I'll see if I can finally get this implemented in the next few weeks.

Making the cast cross-searchable as well would be nice too.
Adding a VA filter to the character search might not be too hard, but I'm not convinced it will be too useful. It'll be a pain to use regardless how I implement it (much like how searching for multiple tags is right now), and won't solve your complex search query.

...parent tag searching...
Damn, what a mess. Not sure what to make of this. The hierachical tag system was designed with the assumption (or rather, a hard requirement) that a child tag *always* fully implies the parent tag. Unless that parent tag is meta, which only exist for organizational purposes. But if it's not possible to properly fulfil that requirement, we'll have to look for alternative solutions. I'm not exactly fond of adding more search and filter options - searching the DB is already unintuitive enough as it is. What we can do is separate the "implies" relationship from the tag hierarchy, essentially adding a separate "This tag implies: .." field. I've not yet thought out the implications of such a change, though.
#7 by warfoki
2019-06-25 at 11:23
Just so I properly understand this, you mean to do this?
- Mark Fingering as "searchable but not taggable" (while remaining current tag votes?)
- Create a new "Vaginal Fingering" sub-tag and tell everyone to use that instead.

Exactly. Well, I wouldn't "tell" people to use that per se, they just won't be able to use Fingering anymore, as with the new option, that won't be taggable in the future, so they will kinda be forced to use the new child tag.

A VA filter wouldn't be as pain to use as filtering a dozen tags to get something relevant to your searches. sure, it might be not that important for me personally, but considering that a lot of Japanese VAs have fandoms even in the west, it could be useful for a lot of people potentially.

Well, one potential solution for the parent tag issue is for me to create new meta parent tags. So, in case of Comedy, the structure would look something like this

- Comedic Genre (meta tag)
----- Comedy
----- Comedic Tools (meta trait, name subject to change)

Then I'd put all the actual subgenre tags (namely: Black Comedy, Family Life Comedy, Parody, School Life Comedy and Slice of Life Comedy) under it. Everything else would go under the new meta trait Comedic Tools.Last modified on 2019-06-25 at 11:24
#8 by rampaa
2019-06-25 at 13:20
I'll see if I can finally get this implemented in the next few weeks.
Yay!

While warfoki's idea at #7 is not bad, I think it still fails to solve the problem with "Only Avoidable" tags. Let's say I want to exclude Rape. It results in "Only Avoidable" rape stuff being excluded as well. But I think this may not be the desirable outcome. Because pretty much the whole idea behind the "Only Avoidable" tags is that they let you know even if you hate X you can avoid all the Xs so the game might be playable for you.

I think it would be a good idea to be able to search (or exclude) with tag scores. I can think of two huge benefits of this. First, it would let us find games that are really focusing on the tags we're searching for. And as for the second usage: Imagine you hate Male on Male Sex, so you want to exclude it. This results in Eroge! ~H mo Game mo Kaihatsu Zanmai~ getting excluded. Because it is tagged with Male on Male Sex (but it has the score of 0.7, mind you). It's pretty clear that this is not the kind of game most people who hate Male on Male Sex would want to avoid. So, if we could exclude tags with the score of 2.0+ etc. that would be great.

Also, I was thinking maybe if we could search with negative tag scores, that would be useful as well? At least for tags that works as binary. As an example, we have No "Keep Voice on Click" Option. So when a VN has "Keep Voice on Click" option, we can give negative votes to them instead of creating a new tag for the reverse of it. And by the same vein, we can search the reverse of them with negative scores.

Also currently there's no easy way to look up what is the latest translated VN that has, say, Fantasy in it. We can only sort according to VN release date. I think when we use VN filters along with Release filters, there should be an additional column for the release "release date" for the latest release that fits our criteria.Last modified on 2019-06-25 at 13:38
#9 by roadi
2019-06-25 at 14:33
What about introducing something like tag attributes; for example, [taggable], [searchable], [negatable], [parent-is-not-implied], [admin-only], [has-weight], [candidate-for-deletion], etc.
These attributes could further have attributes of their own, like [hidden] for attributes that are not meant for general consumption.

For example:
Tags [admin-only,!taggable,!searchable,...]
Theme [admin-only,!taggable,!searchable,...]
Comedy [taggable,searchable,negatable,has-weight,...]
Parody [...]
Title parody [parent-is-not-implied,...]
#10 by yorhel
2019-06-26 at 11:20
...separate "meta" flag into "not-searchable" and "not-applyable" flags...
Implemented for both tags and traits.

one potential solution for the parent tag issue is for me to create new meta parent tags
If it's possible and realistic to follow the "child fully implies parent" approach, then that definitely has my preference. Not just because I'm lazy, but also because it keeps the system relatively simple. :P

Tag score filters
In case it's not obvious from my previous posts: I hate complicating the filters more than they already are. This helps nobody except the 10 people who know how to use it and who know *exactly* what they want. I'd like to see a lot more use cases before implementing a new filter.

I wonder if providing a raw SQL query interface isn't a better approach...
#11 by rampaa
2019-06-26 at 15:50
This helps nobody except the 10 people who know how to use it
I really doubt that is the case. AniDB lets people search with tag scores and my gut feeling says there are way more than 10 people who uses it. But if you are against it, that's that I guess.
#12 by warfoki
2019-06-26 at 20:35
If it's possible and realistic to follow the "child fully implies parent" approach, then that definitely has my preference. Not just because I'm lazy, but also because it keeps the system relatively simple. :P

I'll do my best, but please understand that this means changing how tag / trait families have been treated for years, so can't guarantee that I can get it done 100%.

Also, if it's not too hard to implement, please reconsider Rampaa's idea for tag score searching and sorting tag search results by release dates. I really don't think that this is something that only 10 people would use, I know for a fact that I could have used both features many times in the past.
#13 by roadi
2019-06-26 at 21:57
I wonder if providing a raw SQL query interface isn't a better approach...
That would be most welcome. :P
#14 by yorhel
2019-06-28 at 13:45
Alright, I've added character filters to the VN search. It works the same way as the release filters: If a single character matches the criteria, the VN is included.

but please understand that this means changing how tag / trait families have been treated for years
Of course. And if the tag/trait model is not correct or not sufficient for what we want, then that should be fixed. What I missed was how ignoring child tags in search was going to *fix* it, and not just work around the problem.

sorting tag search results by release dates
I have no sane model for dealing with such complex queries, so any displaying/sorting based on filters is going to be very ugly and very slow.
On the other hand, maybe adding VN filters to the release search would do the trick here.
#15 by kratoscar2008
2019-06-28 at 18:12
Freaking finally we get character traits in the search VN system. Thanks for keeping this site improvements.
#16 by truetakuma
2019-06-29 at 21:04
One of the best moves from vndb.

Thank you.
#17 by eacil
2019-06-29 at 21:49
Next... producer filter? ;_;
#18 by skorpiondeath
2019-06-29 at 21:54
Thanks yorhel it is a really appreciated feature! :D
#19 by usagi
2019-07-02 at 05:11
@warfoki
Well, searching for parent-tags only would be important mostly for 2 reasons:

1) Because I use method 1 from t12504.19, this is the only way to search for stuff like vaginal fingering, single blowjob, etc. If semi-meta tags and traits are implemented, I can switch to method two and improve the accuracy of the system without sacrificing current searchability.

2) Because some of the tags are not completely or equally invoked by their child tags. For example if someone is searching for Comedy, they are going to find, among other things:
There were quite a few nukiges with BOTH single and twin blowjobs which I tagged with twin blowjob tag ONLY - exactly because I knew that twin blowjob automatically activate single blowjob too.
The same was with comedy vns - there were cases when I tagged Slice of Life Comedy tag and downvoted Comedy tag at the same time - exactly because I kbew that child tag automatically implies parent tag - thus making including parent tag redundant.
There were lots of such cases (especially often I downvoted Sexual Content tag in nukiges - it was just superfluous) - and it wasn't done only by me, I believe. Therefore when you try to search by parent-only filter - it can miss many relevant vns as a result. How you propose to solve this problem? 0_0Last modified on 2019-07-02 at 05:14
#20 by yorhel
2019-07-08 at 13:32
Next... producer filter?
That, and a few more.

Release filters now have a Producers tab.
VN filters now have a Staff tab.
Character filters now have a Seiyuu tab.

These are somewhat limited in that you can't filter on type/role, but I hope they'll still be useful.
#21 by rampaa
2019-07-08 at 14:04
Yorhel banzai!

Release filters now have a Producers tab.
Can we get a Developer tab for VN filters? Because as is, one can't really search for fully translated games of a given Developer if they are not the ones who translated their own games as well.

To give a concrete example: link gives 0 results. link on the other hand gives 13 results but 11 of them are partially translated. So, as is, we need to go over those results manually to find fully translated ones.

On the other hand, maybe adding VN filters to the release search would do the trick here.
Yeah, I think it would.Last modified on 2019-07-08 at 14:06
#22 by maggierobot
2019-07-08 at 14:07
Finally a seiyuu tab! Thanks yorhel, you're great!
#23 by rampaa
2019-09-03 at 21:48
Character filter doesn't exactly behave in a way one would expect it to.

link shows Maji de Watashi ni Koishinasai! in the results but it shouldn't. Because the only person who's a yandere in that game is Uesugi Mihato but she's not a main character in that particular VN.

EDIT:

Also, to those who are interested, I've written some queries for things VNDB doesn't let us do at the moment:

I think it would be a good idea to be able to search (or exclude) with tag scores.

link

Also currently there's no easy way to look up what is the latest translated VN that has, say, Fantasy in it. We can only sort according to VN release date. I think when we use VN filters along with Release filters, there should be an additional column for the release "release date" for the latest release that fits our criteria.
link
A more complex query that does a few other things: link

Can we get a Developer tab for VN filters? Because as is, one can't really search for fully translated games of a given Developer if they are not the ones who translated their own games as well.

To give a concrete example: link gives 0 results. link on the other hand gives 13 results but 11 of them are partially translated. So, as is, we need to go over those results manually to find fully translated ones.

linkLast modified on 2019-09-03 at 23:28
#24 by yorhel
2019-09-04 at 07:17
Character filter doesn't exactly behave in a way one would expect it to.
I... don't think I can easily fix that. :(

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