Tag Cleanup #2 - Problematic Tags

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#1 by warfoki
2019-06-30 at 11:09
So, initially the plan was to have all the systematic changes up for discussion in one go, but that's not happening now: After the changes in t12507, while I could do it in one go, I'd prefer to have some actual user input with these things and if I'd make write-up for all that, it'd be a wall of text that pretty much nobody would bother with.

As such, I'm doing what was initially supposed to be one step in three:

1. Problematic tags that are mistagged a lot or overall useless. This is this thread.

2. Creating new child tags to switch to method 2 from method 1 (as per t12504.19) in handling more specific child tags now that untaggable, but searchable semi-meta tags are possible.

3. Restructuring the tag system as to try and make every child tag 100% invoke its parent tag(s) and to generally clean up some of the messier segments of it.

Lastly, an important note:

IF YOU KNOW ANY OTHER PROBLEMATIC TAGS THAT ARE NOT LISTED HERE, PLEASE MENTION THEM!

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Here's is the list of problematic tags and my idea to solve the issue:

Mage Heroine & Battlemage Heroine / Mage Protagonist & Battlemage Protagonist

Problem: The idea was that battlemages use their magics for combat, while mages use theirs exclusively for non-combat purposes. And this is why these tags are the the perfect example as to why I'm so adamant about tags having to have names properly describe their content, because people will never read the description if they think they know what the tag / trait is about. See, this is not the usual use of these terms. Battlemages are usually defined as a mixture of "normal" fighters / soldiers and mages. people who use conventional weapons and martial arts, mixed with spellcasting, while mages are "pure" spellcasters with little to no combat prowess beyond that. Thanks to this mixup, both of these tags are MASSIVELY mistagged. The fact that Fate/Stay Night has Mage Heroine at 2.9 strength with no downvotes despite it being clearly mistagged and that we have 11 VNs where both Mage Heroine and Battlemage Heroine are tagged, despite the two concepts being mutually exclusive (technically but can apply on different heroines, but that's not the case in most of those titles).

Solution: since this is not something I can just check by quickly browsing through CGs and since overall hundreds of VNs have been tagged for about a decade now, sorting these out manually is just not realistically doable. My suggestion is merging the respective mage & battlemage tags into one. Main name will be mage, with battlemage as alias.

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Chekhov's Gun

Problem: Possibly the most pointless tag in the system. It tells absolutely nothing of the VN it's attached to.

Solution: Deletion.

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Hypnotism & Mind Control

Problem: We lack any proper distinction between Hypnotism and Mind Control. Hypnotism just links to the Wikipedia article, while Mind Control also uses the real life definition. And while there are some select few titles where those definitions are applicable (Kangoku Senkan ~Hidou no Sennou Kaizou Koukai~ is pretty good example of the real life definition of Mind Control, with obvious sci-fi / nukige exaggerations) , for overwhelming majority of the titles tagged with these, they are not. In real life, Hypnotism is essentially lowering inhibitions to make the hypnotized do something, that they otherwise would like to do anyway. It cannot override conscious decision making to make you do something that you don't want to for real, it's nothing more than giving subtle, enticing suggestions. Mind Control involves systematic brainwashing that takes time and that first has to break down the original personality. Majority of the VNs tagged with these feature neither of these two: it's almost always the work of some macguffin (spell, potion, mobile app, magical artifact, etc) that works instantly. It switches off the original personality and replaces it with a new one (that usually involves being horny and really, REALLY wanting the protagonist's dick) in a moment's notice. it may or may not be switched back, at which point the hypnotized may or may not remember anything. Basically it's instant mind control and VNs usually refer to this as hypnosis.

Solution: Merging the two as there's no easily recognizable distinction between the practical use of these two.

Edit: Further child tags for more specific uses of either of these tags will be added to be able to search for specific aplications of either mind control of hypnosis.

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Corruption of Characters

Problem: By design this was supposed to be used on visual novels that have characters that fall from grace, a non-VN example would be Arthas Menethil. However, unlike with traits, we don't have a Sexual Corruption tag. This ended up causing Corruption of Characters to be almost exclusively used for Sexual Corruption, making VNs that use the tag for its actual, original intention (like Black Wolves Saga -Bloody Nightmare-) really damn hard to find.

Solution: No immediate solution, as that would involve going through 400+ entries to fix, not easy. Instead, I'd make Corruption of Characters a searchable, but no longer taggable meta trait and would make two child tags under it: Sexual Corruption (pretty much with the same description as Sexual Corruption) and Non-erotic Moral Corruption (which would pretty much have the description of the current Corruption of Characters). This would prevent further mistagging, and with time the currently tagged VNs would be tagged with one of the two, to the point where I can purge all applications of the current Corruption of Characters.

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Teasing

Problem: Similar issue to Corruption of Characters, as in this is not a sexual tag. This was supposed to be used for humorous, VERBAL teasing, not physical, sexual teasing. Stuff like Fukashi na Aijou ~Toumei na Boku ni Kanjiru Mama~ or Yuuryou Kenkou Seito no Chou Shuuchi Taiken have no business being tagged with this. Yet another case of a tag name not being descriptive enough.

Solution: Similar problem, similar solution to Corruption of Characters. Make this tag into a searchable, but non-taggable one, then make two child tags: Erotic Teasing and Comedic Teasing.

Edit: I'm considering just deleting the tag altogether without any replacement. I'm hesitant to do that, because of the sheer number of uses, but Usage at t12533.16 made some VERY valid point in that this tag was mistagged to hell and back, because it was vague to a fault to begin with. And now that I think about it, I'm not sure I can prevent the same thing happening even if I split it into two...

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Bunnygirl Heroine

Problem: Tag is supposed to be for heroines with actual bunny-like features (ears, maybe tail mostly), instead a whole lot of the VNs tagged feature human heroines in full bunnygirl costumes.

Solution: Rename it to Rabbitgirl Heroine and add Heroine with Bunnygirl Costume as an alias to Usamimi Heroine. After that, manually sort out what I can, post the ones I can't in t3617 for help.

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Scenario Selection & Hero(ine) Selection (as per t12533.4)

Problem: Neither of the two tags are particularly well defined. Based on the description, Hero(ine) Selection can be used anything from selecting heroines on a map via Map Movement to not having a common route at all and just straight up selecting which heroine's route you want to see. Scenario Selection is equally vague and has been used to describe a wild variety of things, often overlapping with Hero(ine) Selection.

Solution. Unsure. I could possibly create new, better defined tags, but... well, if I delete the old ones, it'll hit the searchability of the database, if I delete them, but leave their current applications intact, people most likely won't bother to add the new tags where the old ones are already there.

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Since this isn't too long of a list, I don't want to spend too much time on this phase. Provided that there are no outstanding issues at the time, I'll commit to these changes on Wednesday (CET). If you know of any further problematic tags, or you have any issues about how I intend to handle these, please provide feedback before Wednesday.Last modified on 2019-07-01 at 09:36
#2 by sakurakoi
2019-06-30 at 11:49
Mage Heroine&Battlemage Heroine
Solution: since this is not something I can just check by quickly browsing through CGs and since overall hundreds of VNs have been tagged for about a decade now, sorting these out manually is just not realistically doable. My suggestion is merging the respective mage & battlemage tags into one. Main name will be mage, with battlemage as alias.

No objections. Though Spellsword could replace what I thought Battlemage would be and make it include non-swords as well. Maybe there is another, more fitting term that is not battlemage for someone who uses magic and something else to do battle. The problem really is that magic only for non-combat is rather rare and irrelevant.

Chekhov's Gun has not really a problem
Solution: Deletion.
but I do not really mind

Hypnotism&Mind Control
Let both of them stay, even if the Hypnosis is not realistic, as long as it is referred to it that way, so it is then. Parent-Child relation should then be reversed though.

Corruption of Characters
Greed-A, since long I wanted that tag for the very trait but until now I just had to make it do with the tag that only mostly covers it.

Teasing
Well, Sexual/Erotic Teasing and Comedic one, no objections.

Bunnygirl Heroine
Purrfect.
#3 by warfoki
2019-06-30 at 12:08
Let both of them stay, even if the Hypnosis is not realistic, as long as it is referred to it that way, so it is then. Parent-Child relation should then be reversed though.

Ehh, my problem isn't the lack of realism really. I just brought that up to point out how they both use the Wikipedia definitions (which pertains to the real world), despite those not actually being applicable in overwhelming majority of the VNs they are used on. No, the crux of the problem is that in terms of practical usage, there's basically no difference between the two tags in any way whatsoever in like 99% of the cases.
#4 by namingmegently
2019-06-30 at 12:45
As first mentioned in t3617.1736, Scenario Selection and Hero(ine) Selection still remain very problematic and I'm all for deleting them in favor of more well-defined and better named tags to replace them with.
#5 by beliar
2019-06-30 at 13:14
I'm totally on board for merging Mage/Battlemage and Hypnosis/Mind Control. I have to confess that I also frequently found myself stumped which of those two to use in any given situation. These tags being separate has always looked to me like splitting hairs, rather than a practical decision. Combined with the fact that Mind Control, rarely appears in VNs with all the real world connotations, like a slow-burn application and gradual breakdown of the victim's mental resistances, I think that merging is the way to go.

Chekhov's Gun is a famous trope, but tropes, even famous ones, do not necessarily transfer themselves into applicable tags. In this case, I really don't believe we need such a tag, especially considering how few VNs have been tagged with it.

Corruption of Characters/Teasing. Yeah, I suppose it's a problem we didn't have sexual variations of these tags until now, so everything got added under a single umbrella. No objections with your proposed solutions.
#6 by warfoki
2019-06-30 at 13:26
@Namingmegently: Huh, I skipped over this one there. I never considered map movement heroine selection to make Hero(ine) Selection applicable. My interpretation has always been that this tag should only applied to VNs where, instead of making decisions in a common route, you just straight up pick a heroine of your choice and play out the scenario with her. I've mostly seen this in shorter nukiges.

But again, the problem is that this is only my interpretation and the tag is really not all that clear. So startign with a clean slate would make sense.

On the other hand, I'm not comfortable with deleting the tags from hundreds of VNs. And since these are separate tags already, I can't use the same trick as I will with Teasing or Corruption of Characters. I can propose some new tags, but I'm unsure how to trat them, and even if I delete the current two and leave their applications (that's an option now), we will have them left there to confuse taggers. People are less likely to apply the new tags on VNs if the old, invalid tags are still there to tag the same thing. I'm honestly not sure what to do with these...Last modified on 2019-06-30 at 13:29
#7 by sakurakoi
2019-06-30 at 14:04
there's basically no difference between the two tags in any way whatsoever in like 99% of the cases.
Of course you see no difference between them if you think of both of them that they are Mind Control and no deeper than that.

It should actually be obvious that it is Hypnotism when the "Controller" actually has to implement/implant suggestions, orders and alike (that is the primary charm of the quite vast Saimin genre) while Mind Control is quite different. Subjects are not a blank slate and are either made to be allies/enemies, simply mad or have otherwise their personality changed. Additionally Mind Control is permanent in all but very few cases that not few would call very close to Hypnotism, especially since subjects are made to forget.

On top of that Mind Control does not really ever suggest the victim what Hypnosis does: That whatever they do is "normal". Mind Control simply comes with a I_m_your_loyal_slave(dot)exe (and one does not care about morality).
#8 by warfoki
2019-06-30 at 14:11
Subjects are not a blank slate and are either made to be allies/enemies, simply mad or have otherwise their personality changed.

Yeah, that might be your interpretation, but I can guarantee you that the tag has not been used this way and several hundred VNs deep, I can't possibly sort this out manually.

Also, what you are talking about is more like a mixture of Mindbreak and Corruption of Characters than Mind Control, depending on implementation.
#9 by sakurakoi
2019-06-30 at 14:47
So... obviously, you will choose to use Mind Control as main name when in fact it is the one which is applied wrongly/too vague? You really should not destroy a genre for that.

At the very least then, please make a Sexual Hypnosis tag and merge it with the two Hypnosis ones. Non-Sexual Hypnosis is very very rare. Only 7 works have no sexual content and Hypnotism (16 have Mind Control, the child tag. Many of the 17 with Hypnosis and without Mind Control and without Sexual Content actually have sexual content, not quite sure what the search has been thinking)

And obviously Mind Control is a kind of Mindbreak, just that one actually is in control and any has the potential to turn characters evil.
#10 by usagi
2019-06-30 at 14:52
About so called Erotic Teasing - I just wanted to remind you that very similar tags but with even more specific decriptions were denied recently i.e. Seduction of the Protagonist or Seductress Heroine while current accepted forms Teasing or Teasing have very foggy definitions. However Erotic Teasing is just the same notion of flirting or seduction - just in more vague form. With the same problems which were used as pretext to deny those tags.
It will be quite funny if Erotic Teasing tag with so primitive description allowing very wide range of interpretations will be accepted without a hitch while my tags with elaborate definitions trying to avoid as much misinterpretation as possible - were denied again and again.
I can't help but feel offended about it.

P.S.: also, it isn't clear why Erotic Teasing should be part of a Comedy tag. There is nothing comedic about it. Or should it be under Sexual Content tag or not (teasing can be in both sexual or nonsexual scenes)? Should it be in impersonal form or attached to protagonist as a subject (there is HUGE difference whether teasing is a form of let's say bdsm play performed by villainous protag to harass victim by hot candle wax or teasing is form of sultry shotacon seductress trying to incite lust in a sissy soy-boy protag by flashing panties, or teasing is a form of married couple play engaging in naked apron cooking etc)? If it's impersonal and will include all aforementioned cases - will it be really useful tag considering its very wide field of application?Last modified on 2019-06-30 at 15:30
#11 by warfoki
2019-06-30 at 14:57
Turning characters evil via mindbreak / sex is quite literally what Corruption of Characters is all about. You ARE confusing things here.

As I said before, there's basically no difference in how Hypnotism and Mind Control are actually used. Why in the bloody hell would I merge in Hypnosis just to remake it immediately after? Hypnosis and Mind Break will be the exact same tag, since they are, in practice, used in the exact same way. Which will be the main main name and which the alias is up for consideration. You say you can't search your specific brand of Mind Control afterwards, but what you fail to see si that you can't search it now either, because nobody is using that tag in that specific way. All we have now is two tags, used for THE EXACT SAME PURPOSE. How is that better than using a single tag for the same thing?

If anything, after the merger I might make a Procedural Mind Control for actual Mind Control where it's not a "snap, you obey me now because of this artifact / mobile app / potion / drug / spell / etc.", but an actual process of grinding down the original personality and slowly replacing it with a new one over the course of at least days, preferably weeks.
#12 by sakurakoi
2019-06-30 at 15:33
First ya say that the border between both is vague, not distinct yet suddenly they are used for "THE EXACT SAME PURPOSE" which is factually wrong and I explained why people apply Hypnosis when and in return it also means when not. Plus even more suddenly it is Mindbreak which should/would be merged? I genuinely hope it was just a mistype.

And if anything, more works than not would contradict your

"Procedural Mind Control for actual Mind Control where it's not a "snap, you obey me now because of this artifact / mobile app / potion / drug / spell / etc.", but an actual process of grinding down the original personality and slowly replacing it with a new one over the course of at least days, preferably weeks"

precisely because the personality is still slowly grinded down, through "sudden" steps with whatever silly device.

You say you can't search your specific brand of Mind Control afterwards
I can't help but wonder why you think I did say that when the point was that so little works with Hypnosis are actually non-sexual. Rather than considering that we just don't speak the same English at this point, I question your sanity. If I don't understand someone I ask and not go with whatever interpretation that incidentally is quite convenient to a point... which ends up being utter nonsense. After all, currently one can search for it and one just has to simply exclude the child because the tags have the false parent-child relation.

All Hypnosis is Mind Control but not all Mind Control is Hypnosis.
All Sex involving Hypnosis has Hypnosis but not all Hypnosis has Sex involving Hypnosis.
All A is B but not all B is A. B is the parent and A the child.

People are using them correctly, that specific way and you are making no effort to prove otherwise.

But welp, we will end up in circles at this point if you are sane enough to not take the "offensive" bait. I sincerely hope that someone else can chime in on the tags that suddenly became an issue.

Which will be the main main name and which the alias is up for consideration.
At the very least, you do consider that if you use Hypnosis, you essentially get rid of a quite significant story tag and of a quite significant genre if you call it Mind Control, yes? I'd be afraid, very afraid, if someone with authority lacks such consideration because of their bias.
#13 by warfoki
2019-06-30 at 17:15
@Usagi

Are you seriously holding a grudge against me months later for denying your overwhelmingly vague and ill-defined tags for, well... being overwhelmingly vague and ill-defined? For real?

*sigh* There is clearly a need for an erotic teasing tag, considering how often Teasing is mistagged. And no, Erotic Teasing is not going to be under Comedy, since Teasing is not going to be under comedy either. As part of the tag system cleanup, I'll boot everything, but straight-up subgenre tags under comedy, as per t12507.

I'll give you that making an erotic tease tag is not without its challenges. Still, if I don't make one, then the only way to fix the current Teasing is to delete it altogether completely and make a new Comedic Tease tag to replace it, as the current Teasing is beyond salvageable at this point. So, I either make it work somehow, or we lose the Teasing on all 221 VNs completely, because leaving this tag as is is NOT an option, period, it's way too misused for that. Since I'd like to salvage as much of it as possible, I'd prefer making two child tags to cover both uses of the current Teasing. Yes, erotic teasing will be somewhat vague, that's unavoidable, but so is Comedic Teasing and I consider this a lesser evil in comparison to outright deleting Teasing.

In contrast, your tags wouldn't have salvaged anything, instead they would have been yet another vague tag that years down the line I would have had to somehow fix or delete after it got mistagged to hell and back. It wouldn't have been useless, it would have been LESS than useless, just another headache.

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@Sakurakoi

Mate, all ad hominems will do is that I eventually will consider you not worth bothering with and consequently will ignore you altogether, which will not help your cause any, so I'd suggest refraining from them.

I'm genuinely, honestly not sure if your English needs some polishing or you are intentionally misrepresenting what I've written at this point. Let me reiterate a couple point then, just to be clear on them.

First ya say that the border between both is vague, not distinct yet suddenly they are used for "THE EXACT SAME PURPOSE"

I've said that the tag definitions use their real-life definitions and yes, those are different. That is not hte problem, I have said this like three different times at this point. I've said, that in terms of how they are ACTUALLY USED, they are indistinguishable from one another. And since the real life definitions have fuck all to do with how these things work in overwhelming majority of VNs, they are utterly useless in making any distinction, so even if we assume that everybody reads the descriptions (which people don't, I can assure you of this), they would still be confused on which applies where, because the descriptions are inadequate in the context of how Mind Control / Hypnotism work in visual novels. Because of this they have been applied without any real distinction across the database so many times, that it became impossible to manually fix them.

And if anything, more works than not would contradict your

"Procedural Mind Control for actual Mind Control where it's not a "snap, you obey me now because of this artifact / mobile app / potion / drug / spell / etc.", but an actual process of grinding down the original personality and slowly replacing it with a new one over the course of at least days, preferably weeks"

precisely because the personality is still slowly grinded down, through "sudden" steps with whatever silly device.

You do realize that a metric fucking ton of VNs utilizing such tactics call the process Hypnotism and as a direct result, tagged with Hypnotism, right? That's EXACTLY the problem, which I'm trying to fix.

All Hypnosis is Mind Control but not all Mind Control is Hypnosis.
All Sex involving Hypnosis has Hypnosis but not all Hypnosis has Sex involving Hypnosis.
All A is B but not all B is A. B is the parent and A the child.

Are you seriously trying to imply that I don't know how the tag system works? Because if so, I'll consider that another ad hominem with the intention to piss me off.

For the umpteenth time: THERE IS NO DISCERNIBLE DIFFERENCE IN HOW THE TAGS ARE APPLIED IN THE OVERWHELMING MAJORITY OF THE CASES. As such the first line of your argument there becomes utterly meaningless. And the second is irrelevant, since I have no intention to remove or relocate Sex Involving Hypnosis at all. (If anything the fact that we have Sex Involving Hypnosis, but not no Sex Involving Mind Control, nor did anybody in the history of ever has sent in Sex Involving Mind Control in for approval supports my very point and goes against yours. Apparently people don't see any difference between the two concepts, go figure.)

People are using them correctly, that specific way and you are making no effort to prove otherwise.

By your own words, you consider "saimin" VNs as examples for Hypnosis, clearly different from Mind Control. Yet people seem to be quite eager to tag such things as Mind Control. And you know why? Because this differentiation only exists in your head and is not written down anywhere in the actual database.

But welp, we will end up in circles at this point if you are sane enough to not take the "offensive" bait.

Oh, that's rich. You sprinkle ad hominems all over your post, but I'm the bad guy if I dare to react to them? Yeah, that's not how that works mate. I don't believe in the bullshit of turn the other cheek, I prefer the good old eye for an eye. Considering that, I'd say I was way more nice to you in this post, than you were to me in yours.Last modified on 2019-06-30 at 17:18
#14 by beliar
2019-06-30 at 17:21
All Hypnosis is Mind Control but not all Mind Control is Hypnosis.
While that is empirically true, I agree with Warfoki that there is no significant difference between the two to keep them separate.

Frankly, I'm of the stance that less tags is better than more tags and tags that have basic similarities should be contracted into a single entry.

It's not like contracting them will "get rid of a quite significant story tag" - rather it would make the tag more concise.
#15 by skorpiondeath
2019-06-30 at 17:36
It's completely out of topic but please guys just chill down. Warfoki put himself into a big and long work between tag cleanup ad tag reorganization.
It's years we don't see all this effort into reorganizing things and if possible is better to keep it on the collaborative side even if somthing seems unfair, uncorrect and such. VNDB is a collective effort, so explain your resoning and let the mods do their work.

That said:
I'm of the stance that less tags is better..
I don't agree with this sentence and I feel the more tags we have the easier we can aim for specific stuff, but this is true ONLY if tags are not misused and wrongly applied.Last modified on 2019-06-30 at 17:38
#16 by usagi
2019-06-30 at 22:41
@warfoki
your tags wouldn't have salvaged anything, instead they would have been yet another vague tag that years down the line I would have had to somehow fix or delete after it got mistagged to hell and back
Are you seriously implying that Erotic Teasing tag can't be as vague or wouldn't be as mistagged as any of Seduction tags? 0_0
At least they had much narrower definition - and one can expect what exactly he can meet in a novel with such tag more or less. On other hand Teasing tags in its current form are just begging for mistagging and misinterpretation - moreover, when you see vn with such tag - you just can't know what to expect at all. Because it's inherently too vague and broad. It's either can be some standart joke or couple of jokes somewhere in midst of many jokes of 50+ hours slice of life banters of typical moege comedy routines. Moreover highly likely it will be situation which one can see as a teasing and other can consider as just a comedy element/joke without special teasing purpose. Or it can be indeed more niche comedic genre with main goal of humiliating protag (for example some sort of femdom genre). Or it can be unavoidable accompaniment of tsundere archetype (as they tends to be triggered by anything and just begs for teasing).
You just can't know it. Either way - whether the tag exists or not - due to its vagueness it can very well be substituted with general Comedy tag without losing any informational value. Generic moege with Teasing tag? Well, ok. Generic moege with Comedy tag? Well, ok. Generic moege with both tags? Well, ok. There isn't any difference. They are all the same. Reader just don't get any valuable information whether he see this tag or not. Completely useless tag.
The same can be said about Erotic Teasing - as long as it remains in the same track as Teasing tag now. There can be teasing elements in majority of h-scenes - whether the teasing is performed proactively by protag or he is subjected to it passively by heroine - is not important. Moreover, if we add to it erotic teasing outside of h-scenes without limiting it with clear-cut definitions of its purpose (like it was in seduction tag) - instances of it will multiply manyfolds - beginning from occasional peeping/flashing scenes and ending it with standart snuggling up with boobs to arm of protag while walking near him. In other words - you can put Erotic Teasing in every and each moege/galge/otoge by default. To put it simply - again completely useless tag.
While there is clear demand for the tag - if you willing to implement it in the same way as current Teasing tag - there will be the same result. And I am surprised you really think this approach is less vague than seduction tags were. While they maybe weren't ideal - at least they had quite narrow definition and tried to limit number of cases where they can be applied as much as possible.

P.S.: don't get me wrong - I am not as much attached to my tags now as maybe it can be seen. I will be glad if you will manage to create your own version if it will be better. However, I am interested in creation of adequate seduction/teasing etc. tag because I really like this element in vns (you can say it's my fetish) - so there always will be personal interest with maybe a little too much vigor. If it offends you somehow - I am sorry.Last modified on 2019-06-30 at 23:14
#17 by glowworm
2019-07-01 at 05:12
I wrote up a long response on the the hypnosis split, but honestly adopting the exhentai "mindcontrol/hypnosis" isn't wrong. What I think @sakurakoi is getting at, or at least what I agree with is that there should exist a tag that serves what I figure the original purpose of the Hypnosis tag was. That is identifying games that use something somewhat resembling authentic hypnosis, or a tag that otherwise distinguishes games that engage in the process of hypnosis, or mind control as more than a contrivance. Perhaps I'm wrong, but in my eyes that's the more meaningful distinction. I'm not sure how I'd go about phrasing that, and that's probably a topic better left to the tag suggestions/fixes thread. The fix might have been to add some ""authenticity""-ish standard to the tag definition, or to create a new tag, but things currently are too far gone.

With that being said I agree with the need, and see that it is the easier path to merge the tags and then sort things out as deemed necessary.
#18 by bobjr2000
2019-07-01 at 05:43
I don't really care which way tags go but give my 2 cents since I am bored.

I always thought hypnosis was suggestive state of mind something see at state fair or therapist.

While mind control is more the evil scientist or wizard/mage spell.

Point being hypnosis doesn't actual have full control of person mind and only works to some extent like maybe answer questions might not normally answer but don't have complete control of mind.

But the reality when it comes to vn is that hypnosis is the primary way to essential get mind control and force people to do what ever want and rarely seen as the state of mind suggested above which has limitations.
#19 by dk382
2019-07-01 at 09:00
The hypnotism/mind control discussion here has me a little confused because, as far as I'm concerned, there IS no "real-life" version of mind control. It's like magic, sorcery, sci-fi, whatever--it only exists in the realm of fiction or conspiracy theories. I would imagine that very few native english speakers would see the term "mind control" and think of real-life brainwashing techniques. That's just not how that phrase is used or thought of. I strongly recommend getting rid of the "mind control" label entirely and replace it with brainwashing (as in, please don't even use it as an alias unless you want to include the sci-fi/fantasy stuff too)

I feel like the temporary control methods and permanent brainwashing/psychological grooming story elements often have very different tones and do not share the same niches. Hypnotism and temporary mind control, at least as they're often depicted in eroge, are used to momentarily take advantage of someone who would normally object, while long-term grooming and brainwashing tend to be depicted in a darker light while catering to a different crowd.

I suppose I wouldn't really object much to one tag for everything, but I do think a distinction between temporary/momentary effects and long-term grooming would be useful. Right now, the tags don't really do that, though, which is still a problem. I think (sci-fi/fantasy-style) mind control and hypnotism are more appropriate together than Mind Control is now. And I think users would understand that distinction better than the current tag setup. I guess moving a single subject matter from one wide-ranging tag to another would result in a very messy tag situation that would be difficult to correct, though, which leaves us in a difficult spot. :/Last modified on 2019-07-01 at 09:21
#20 by warfoki
2019-07-01 at 09:25
@Glowworm

That is identifying games that use something somewhat resembling authentic hypnosis, or a tag that otherwise distinguishes games that engage in the process of hypnosis, or mind control as more than a contrivance.

I intend to make a child tag for more "realistic" mind control anyway, making a similar child tag for "real" hypnosis is entirely possible. It's just re-purposing the current one is not feasible, because it has been used so many times by now.

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@Skorpiondeath

I don't agree with this sentence and I feel the more tags we have the easier we can aim for specific stuff, but this is true ONLY if tags are not misused and wrongly applied.

Well, watch me pulling out a Saturday morning serial level cliche: the truth is somewhere in the middle. If we add tags for every minor dentil, we'll have so many tags, that majority of the people won't use most of them, since they will never even think of searching for every detail. That's not good, since incomplete tagging mars the searchability of the database. Hence why we refuse tags that would serve no purpose. Notably, I'm very lenient towards sexual tags / traits, since a good chunk of the database is basically porn and as we know, everything's someone's fetish, but even then I draw the line at some point.

On the other hand, being too concise means the people will misuse tags, because "ehh, there's no tag for that, but this looks similar enough", which means the tags will become useless eventually and if I catch this too late for it to manually fixed, well... that's when we have a thread like this. And as you can see, at this point shit cannot be fixed without pissing some people of, which isn't ideal.

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@Usagi

On other hand Teasing tags in its current form are just begging for mistagging and misinterpretation - moreover, when you see vn with such tag - you just can't know what to expect at all. Because it's inherently too vague and broad. It's either can be some standard joke or couple of jokes somewhere in midst of many jokes of 50+ hours slice of life banters of typical moege comedy routines. Moreover highly likely it will be situation which one can see as a teasing and other can consider as just a comedy element/joke without special teasing purpose. Or it can be indeed more niche comedic genre with main goal of humiliating protag (for example some sort of femdom genre). Or it can be unavoidable accompaniment of tsundere archetype (as they tends to be triggered by anything and just begs for teasing).

Honestly, I agree with all of that. Had this been suggested during my time, I would have denied it for being too vague. I don't blame the tagmod of the time too much though, this tag IS 10 years old at this point. 10 years ago this website was a small place with probably a couple hundred VNs and a small community. I don't think anybody was really thinking about how tags would eventually be applied to thousands of titles potentially and the database would have 25 000 entries.

So, why don't I just delete it? Well, this isn't MY database. I consider the tag useless, but there's clearly a demand for it by the usage numbers, so I don't want to just up and delete it. On the other hand, I cannot exactly leave it as is, since it's so heavily mistagged, that it has essentially lost its purpose altogether. As a compromise to save the tag and please people, I intend to separate it into two tags. Both of these tags will be vaguer than I'd like them, simply because teasing, even when your separate the comedic and erotic application of the term, is super fucking vague. As such, the only way to salvage an old tag with plenty of usage is to create two new tags, that are so vague, that without these specific circumstances, I'd never let them through. What I was referring to, is that your tags didn't have this specific scenario, so I treated them according to the normal standards and denied them.

With all that being said, you are making some good points here. Points that I have realized, but have been trying to ignore in an effort to save and old, often used tag from the chopping block. Maybe I AM just creating two more tags for said chopping block at the end of the day. Maybe I should just delete it Teasing altogether. *Sigh* I know I can't please everyone, but damn I always feel obligated to try...

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Edit:

@Dk382:

I feel like the temporary control methods and permanent brainwashing/psychological grooming story elements often have very different tones and do not share the same niches. Hypnotism and temporary mind control, at least as they're often depicted in eroge, are used to momentarily take advantage of someone who would normally object, while long-term grooming and brainwashing tend to be depicted in a darker light while catering to a different crowd.

Creating further tags or child tags to make such things specifically taggable is perfectly fine and not only I have no issues with it, I downright encourage it and want to do it myself. It's just that I need to have a clear slate first and I consider the current two tags, as separate tags are not salvageable at this point.Last modified on 2019-07-07 at 23:18
#21 by skorpiondeath
2019-07-01 at 11:38
If we add tags for every minor dentil, we'll have so many tags, that majority of the people won't use most of them, since they will never even think of searching for every detail.
While this is true is true also that the ones that knows the detail can still use them. A Leotard trait for example can be changed into Strapless Leotard a more specific trait. If you don't know the existence of Strapless Leotard you would probably just put Leotard doing 0 harm to the system, at most people won't get the precise feature, but people can still change it into Strapless Leotard.
Removing Strapless Leotard instead harms the system since the detail is lost even if you want to use it. Maybe it is an useless detail but the hierarchical sytem of traits and tags just help on this matter since a Strapless Leotard is also a Leotard....meaning the ones that wanna search for it can do it while the ones that don't care will find it under Leotard anyway.

I just wanna add that I never thought someone would care about the "Teasing" aspect of a game, but I just learned today that some people care. It's up to the people that care about a subject like "teasing", "hypnotism" and such to help the ones that doesn't to keep VN properly tagged.

pissing some people of, which isn't ideal.
A want to add my Saturday morning serial level cliche too: People get pissed anywayLast modified on 2019-07-01 at 11:56
#22 by warfoki
2019-07-01 at 12:32
A want to add my Saturday morning serial level cliche too: People get pissed anyway

*sigh* Yeah, true. Especially nowadays when in the west people are living in a culture of constant outrage over the most irrelevant and benign of things.

Yes, child tags and traits work that way and that's why I'm usually a lot more lenient in letting them through than entirely new tags / traits: if people don't care or use them, the original tag / trait is still there, so no loss. If they do, you can now be more precise with searching and fall back to the parent tag / trait if you fail to find what you were looking for. Everybody wins.
#23 by namingmegently
2019-07-01 at 14:20
If it's in the database's interest to keep both the Scenario Selection and Hero(ine) Selection tags intact without invalidating the various ways they've been applied so far, then one possible solution could be to join these separate tags together through a shared child tag called "Hero(ine) Route Selection". To differentiate "Hero(ine) Route Selection" from its parent tag "Hero(ine) Selection" make it clear in the description that unlike "Hero(ine) Selection" which can appear numerous times without locking you into a particular hero(ine)'s route, the selection screen for "Hero(ine) Route Selection" comes up only ONCE and then you're locked into that particular hero(ine)'s route. Scenario Selection would be renamed to or given the alias of "Route Selection" and it can have a shared child tag between it and Multiple Common Routes called "Common Route Selection".
#24 by [deleted]
2019-07-01 at 18:16
I never considered map movement heroine selection to make Hero(ine) Selection applicable. My interpretation has always been that this tag should only applied to VNs where, instead of making decisions in a common route, you just straight up pick a heroine of your choice and play out the scenario with her. I've mostly seen this in shorter nukiges.

This is also pretty common for otome games, especially on mobile, where there's a short free prologue and then each character's route is its own story that you have to buy separately. The fact that there's so little overlap with Early Branching Plot suggests that the tag is definitely not being used that way, though. I'm not sure if Early Branching Plot covers it well enough and you should just delete Hero(ine) Selection, or if it's worth rebooting with a better name. Route Selection? (That probably has the same issue.)

I think Scenario Selection might be salvagable with a clearer description. This is what it seems to imply to me, but tell me if I'm missing something:
- Short, discrete scenes rather than a longer, continuous story.
- In between scenes, you're sent back to a timeline or scene menu.
- You might have to read some scenes to unlock others, but you don't have to read the scenes in a specific and linear order.Last modified on 2019-07-01 at 18:17
#25 by namingmegently
2019-07-01 at 19:41
The fact that there's so little overlap with Early Branching Plot suggests that the tag is definitely not being used that way, though.

Don't forget to factor in people simply forgetting to use Early Branching Plot for such a purpose. It's certainly not the first tag I would think to use for hero(ine) route selection menus.


If Minah's interpretation of Scenario Selection is indeed how the tag was originally intended to be used then Scenario Selection might as well have been called "Short Story Selection", "Scene Selection", or "Chapter Selection", in which cases we have Unlockable Side Stories , Normal Scene Recollection, and Alternate Starting Point.

The Scenario Selection and Hero(ine) Selection tags aside, I do believe the database will benefit from having a "Route Selection" tag with its two child tags, "Hero(ine) Route Selection" and "Common Route Selection"(also child to Multiple Common Routes). They only need better definitions than the Scenario Selection and Hero(ine) Selection tags have had.


@Warfoki: About the
even if I delete the current two and leave their applications (that's an option now), we will have them left there to confuse taggers. People are less likely to apply the new tags on VNs if the old, invalid tags are still there to tag the same thing.
part. Couldn't the old, invalid tags simply have a "NOW INVALID" or some similar bit added to the name to give taggers a heads-up?Last modified on 2019-07-01 at 20:47

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