Tag Cleanup #2 - Problematic Tags

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#26 by [deleted]
2019-07-02 at 00:38
None of Unlockable Side Stories, Normal Scene Recollection, or Alternate Starting Point fit, though. Unlockable Side Stories is about extra stories outside the main story, not instead of a main story. Normal Scene Recollection is about scenes you've already played in the main story being replayable from a menu, so that doesn't cover scenes being chosen from a menu to begin with. And I'll be honest, I'm not sure exactly what Alternate Starting Point means.

Scene Selection would probably be a better name for the tag. I think Chapter Selection implies a linear structure (you unlock a chapter at a time and read them in order) that the tag shouldn't necessarily need.
#27 by barfboy
2019-07-02 at 02:13
I feel some responsibility for the Scenario Selection because I recommended it. I created it to explain games like
Galaxy Angel Moonlit Lovers

Where you start the game and it asks you which of the girls scenarios you want to read. That's what it was supposed to be for. Games that ask you which scenario you want to read. Interestingly enough, nobody else agreed with me and the game I created the tag to explain, got negative votes on the tag.

So .......
#28 by bobjr2000
2019-07-02 at 02:40
that is hilarious barfboy. To fit in with cool crowd I also down vote your game/tag.
#29 by [deleted]
2019-07-02 at 03:10
@27 Huh, that sounds more like Route Selection/what the Hero(ine) Selection tag was supposed to be than what the Scenario Selection tag is right now.
#30 by usagi
2019-07-02 at 04:23
@warfoki
I consider the tag useless, but there's clearly a demand for it by the usage numbers
Is there? I would argue that it's quite the opposite.. Moreover, if you think about it - it will be obvious that teasing tag became somewhat popular EXACTLY because it's so damn vague. People just don't know what they want to do with it but uses it just as Comedy subtag - since it's exists there and why not? Just because they can. As I said before - almost every Comedy vn contains some jokes of teasing nature anyway - so you just can't be wrong with the tag. However you can't consider it as a clear sign of demand.
If we can talk about any kind of demand - it's demand for another tag. Which is similar in nature to Teasing -- i.e. Erotic Teasing/Seduction. I myself used the tag for such purposes and I noticed other people did it too - considering certain vns tagged with it. It's like situation with Corruption of Characters tag - where 99% of people uses it for sexual corruption only. I can't say that with Teasing tag it's exactly like that though - of course it's not 99% there. Still, at least half of Teasing tagging is for erotic scenes, I believe.
So, you can say that causes of mistagging often lies in a unfulfilled demand which resembles some other tag name or description. And as long as that demand is not fulfilled - it will continue to invite mistagging again and again.
That said, in the end, 221 instances of an almost synonim of such general tag as Comedy after 10 YEARS of usage - is quite modest number.
Maybe I should just delete it Teasing altogether.
Yes, you should. People will just use Comedy tag instead and that's it. There is nothing to lose. If there is a demand for Comedic Teasing - it can be on micro level (traits). On macro level (tags) - it's just superfluous, vague and unneeded.
I would delegate all Comedic Teasing functions to traits only (subject of teasing, engages in teasing - are demanded enough traits - judging by 2000+ numbers of uses) and would delete Teasing tag altogether. INSTEAD of it I would introduce TWO new tags - both of which wouldn't have any relation with Comedy tag.
1) Erotic Teasing tag under Sexual Content tag (or Sexual Content by Activity). There is clear demand for it - so it can be as a tag for some form of sexual foreplay, why not? Whether it's consensual or not - is not that important. Of course there are tags such as Wax Play or Orgasm Denial - which can be child tags for example. However it would be better to make Erotic Teasing tag as more about mood/intentions of participating parties during h-scene rather than certain activity. Else it can become messy tag too.
2) Seduction tag under Other Elements. It should divide erotic teasing lovers crowd to those who prefer to see it OUTSIDE of h-scenes - thus lowering vagueness as much as possible. To further increase the effect of difference - you can add purpose criteria making it applicable only in cases where seducing character must have intention to "conquer" "victim" character sexually - whether on a short time period or long - is not that important. While there are cases of erotic teasing outside of h-scenes without seduction motivation too (let's say some couple frolicking) - they are quite rare, usually only in the ending part of a vn and not in demand at all AFAIK. Basically I see it as tag eqiuvalent of Seduction trait.
You can even make it more impersonal and general - even if it will make it more broad as a result too. One can always try to use other excluding criterias in search after all. Still, to ged rid of inclusion nanpa, netori and otome games by default (all of which have principally different models of seduction comparing to typical galge to boot) I couldn't think better solution than Seductress Heroine tag ))

your tags didn't have this specific scenario, so I treated them according to the normal standards and denied them
I see. I wonder how these standarts are normal though? Aren't they excessivelly strict now? Tbh, I think (maybe it's professional trait now - considering how much time you spend fighting tons of silly tags - most likely I would become the same) you became somewhat too negative/pessimistic in your perception. You just don't want to believe in usefulness of any new tag by default. As a result, as I said above, denying too much tags - you yourself making possibilities of mistagging when people just decide to fill existing vacuum by themselves using other tags. Maybe giving a chance for some tags for a while is not such a bad decision? People are not that stupid as you think, I believe - they are capable of discerning when and where use particular tag well enough. As long as it have decent enough description to even hint on a hollow niche in need of filling - they will fill that niche properly even without delving into description's minutiae.Last modified on 2019-07-02 at 04:35
#31 by warfoki
2019-07-03 at 12:52
I had became a bitter, pessimistic cynic long before even registering for VNDB, so there's nothing new on that front. And I always considered the potential for misuse and being problematic before considering if it's useful at all. I'm significantly more likely to refuse a tag that could be useful if it has a high potential to be misused, then a useless tag that most likely won't be misused. The former can create headaches (like this thread) down the line and can compromise the search-ability of the database in the worst case scenario, the latter simply won't get used at worst and is otherwise harmless. The only thing that has changed over the years is that I'm more confident in making those decisions instead of stressing over them for a long time and leaving the tags / traits in question in the queue for months.

Nobody reads the descriptions of tags / traits if they think they know what they are about, this got proven time and time again, so I'm not taking any chances with that.

On a sidenote: I'm not committing to the changes today, since this kicked up way more of a discussion than expected.Last modified on 2019-07-03 at 12:54
#32 by usagi
2019-07-03 at 16:12
Nobody reads the descriptions of tags / traits if they think they know what they are about, this got proven time and time again, so I'm not taking any chances with that.
Exactly. So if you are committed to create Comedic Teasing and Erotic Teasing tags: the first will be redundant and underused (just as it was before), the second will become a mess (two conceptually different things - erotic teasing as sexual activity and erotic teasing as psychological behavior - will be throwed in one heap).Last modified on 2019-07-03 at 16:13
#33 by warfoki
2019-07-03 at 17:11
Honestly, if I just delete Teasing, I won't make Erotic Teasing either, it's too bloody vague to exist on its own right. The only reason I was willing to consider it is to save Teasing, but once that's out of the question, there's no point.
#34 by [deleted]
2019-07-04 at 01:53
#26: I think "Episode Selection" might work for what you're describing.
#35 by warfoki
2019-07-07 at 23:30
Okay, so the discussion on these seems to have died down. As such I'll commit to the changes below on Wednesday (CET). If you have any objections or things to add, please do so beforehand.

The changes specifically:

Mage Heroine & Battlemage Heroine / Mage Protagonist & Battlemage Protagonist - Being merged into one heroine and one protagonist tag respectively with Mage being the main name and Battlemage being the alias.

Chekhov's Gun - Deletion.

Hypnotism & Mind Control - Probably the change that has met the most resistance. I still intend to merge these two as the counterarguments were not all that convincing. Child tags will be created for specific types of mind control / hypnotism, that's gonna be it's own thread once these changes go live. BTW if I indeed do merge these tags, the relevant traits will also be merged when we come to aligning the trait and tag systems with one another.

Corruption of Characters - Make it searchable but not taggable, then create child tags to separate Sexual Corruption and Non-Erotic Moral Corruption.

Teasing - Deletion. Usagi's counterarguments honestly make a lot of sense here. This tag is a relic of an era when tags were not subjected to the standards we have today, because the database was a niche little thing with a couple hundred entries and nobody expected it to grow into the juggernaut it is today. I regularly throw out way more specific tags for being too vague and the only way to salvage this one, is by creating 2 child tags that are equally as problematic and are way too vague and broad themselves. All that to save what is essentially a meaningless tag. Like, what does Comedic or Erotic Teasing even mean specifically?

Bunnygirl Heroine - Rename it to Rabbitgirl Heroine and add Heroine with Bunnygirl Costume as an alias to Usamimi Heroine. After that, manually sort out what I can, post the ones I can't in t3617 for help.

Scenario Selection & Hero(ine) Selection - I'm deleting Scenario Selection, since I have no idea what it means on any given VN page at this point, considering that quite literally everyone trying to define it here gave totally different definitions. Unlike tags like Corruption of Characters where two distinct uses got mixed into one, this one is just a complete mess at this point. As for Hero(ine) Selection, well right now I feel that it has been used as a substitute for a Route Selection tag as well as the intended use, which is honestly too broad. I'm inclined to delete this as well, but I'm not so sure here. Either way, will be adding Route Selection and Common Route Selection as per t12533.

______________________________________

That's all in a nutshell. Again, if you have any objections, recommendations, etc., please do post them before Wednesday. I don't want to get stuck here much longer, considering that the next steps of this Tag Cleanup are going to be a lot more work and this step was supposed to be a quicky.Last modified on 2019-07-07 at 23:48
#36 by rampaa
2019-07-08 at 00:05
Instead of deleting a tag that's been used more than a few times, would it not be better to mark them as searchable but not taggable? Maybe those tags can be a child of a meta tag called "Archived Tags" or something as well?

I think this approach would have two merits. In case the "deletion" of a tag is not well received (or something to that effect happens) later on, restoration of the tag would be much easier. Also it would let people who care about those tags to make searches with them.Last modified on 2019-07-08 at 00:08
#37 by warfoki
2019-07-08 at 00:32
Deleted tags are not automatically removed anymore, I have to specifically select an option for that. FYI, this is how the current tag-edit interface looks like for mods: link

The issue with this approach is that people might not use the new replacements of old, problematic tags that are still present on VNs. And I don't take tag deletions lightly, a tag has to be more of a problem than any good for me to get rid of it, in which case it stands to reason to remove it from the VN pages.Last modified on 2019-07-08 at 01:17
#38 by rampaa
2019-07-08 at 00:46
Deleted tags are not automatically removed anymore, I have to specifically select an option for that.
I didn't know that. Thanks for letting me know.

The issue with this approach is that people might not use the new replacements of old, problematic tags that are still present on VNs.
Fair enough but this would not apply to cases where the deleted tag won't get a replacement.

And I don't take tag deletions lightly
I am aware but even if you don't take it lightly, some tags -especially those that's been used a lot- might still be missed by some, whether they are vague or not.
#39 by warfoki
2019-07-08 at 00:56
There's a reason why they don't get a replacement though. Assuming that you are talking about Teasing (I don't think anybody will miss Chekhov's Gun), it tells absolutely nothing. Like, what kind of teasing? Lightweight banter between childhood friends? Seduction attempts using sexual innuendos? Verbal erotic teasing? Physical sexual foreplay? And so on. It so vague and used in so many contexts that it became utterly meaningless by now, so I see no point in keeping it on VN pages, as it provides no real information whatsoever.
#40 by rampaa
2019-07-08 at 01:05
To be clear, I am not against any of the said tags' removal. I just wanted to say keeping the archives of deleted tags and maybe letting people search with them as well might have its merits.

As for your question, honestly I don't know. People bothered to tag VNs with it, so I assume they saw some worth in it. I think people who used Teasing for tagging and/or searching should answer your question. But given the fact none came forward till now, I guess it's safe to assume that it's not gonna happen anytime soon.Last modified on 2019-07-08 at 01:06
#41 by [deleted]
2019-07-09 at 16:35
Although I still agree with
having a "Route Selection" tag with its two child tags, "Hero(ine) Route Selection" and "Common Route Selection"(also child to Multiple Common Routes)
, after t3617.1765, I've been thinking that the term 'common route' is a little vague and not clearly defined anywhere on this site to indicate what "commonalities" it should exclude. So, I figure that should be sorted out first.

From my understanding, a "common route" strictly means a route that other routes branch off from. However....


If Common Route is taken to mean a route that is shared by and thus common to multiple hero(in)es
________________________________________________________________________________

Example 1. The romantic/sexual content is shared between the protagonist and multiple hero(in)es in a full route that does not branch off into other routes or individual hero(ine) endings, i.e., a dedicated harem route.

This would be an unusually loose interpretation of the term "Common Route", but I do wonder why there is no Dedicated Harem Route tag. Is such a route that "uncommon"?

-----------------------------


If Common Route is taken to mean a hero(ine) route that branches off to a different hero(ine)'s route (and is therefore common to multiple hero(in)es and to at least 1 other distinct route)
________________________________________________________________________________

(Note: Hero(in)es C, G, and D are all three separate characters)

Example 2a. Hero(ine) G's route is branched off of the middle of Hero(ine) C's route which is branched off of a typical common route in an enforced playing order where the only way to reach Hero(ine) G's route is through the branch that occurs in the middle of Hero(ine) C's own route. You cannot get to Hero(ine) G's route by completing or reaching an ending in Hero(ine) C's route as the branch is in the middle of Hero(ine) C's route, not the end of it. In this scenario, Heron(ine) C's route could itself be considered a common route since it's a route that both Hero(in)es C and G technically have in common, even though (for story reasons and how it's categorized in the VN) it's clearly Hero(ine) C's own route.

Example 2b. If specific story choices were made long beforehand in Hero(ine) C's route, then instead of the VN stopping the story to return to the main menu after reaching a certain one of Hero(ine) C's ends, the narrative will actually extend after that same end to make up Hero(ine) D's linear route. Hero(ine) C's route might be considered a common route in this case as well.


Examples 2a and 2b involve distinctively unconventional common routes that very likely should have a single technical tag that will account for both scenarios outside of the catch-all term, 'common route', only... what would it be called?


Also, on a slightly related note, why isn't there a tag for a route that has only a single ending, i.e., Linear Route? There's the Single Ending tag, but instead of it being restricted to a route with a single ending, it's for a VN with a totality of a single ending, which is redundant when there's Linear Plot, whose description seems to necessitate that
it is also possible for a game to provide choices, but they have no lasting influence on the story itself.
If the implication is that *every* choice provided has no lasting influence on the story itself, then the VN cannot possibly have multiple endings. If Linear Plot was to be comprised of VNs that have only a single route without ruling out those with multiple endings, then the last paragraph of Linear Plot should be removed since it pertains to its child tags and only serves to confuse the issue of what the Linear Plot tag itself is to be used for. With Brief Branches Only implying something relatively akin to Meaningless Choices in its description, Brief Branches Only would seem to be constrained to a Single Ending similar to the Kinetic Novel tag. Also, Linear Plot shouldn't be inside of the Routes category since the Linear Plot tag is specific to the whole VN, not a whole route; those looking for a linear route, instead find a linear VN. However, a branching storyline is not limited to it having multiple routes; multiple endings are branches too. The only true linear VN is one with no branches at all, i.e., Kinetic Novel.Last modified on 2019-07-16 at 06:25
#42 by usagi
2019-07-20 at 15:11
What about Tongue-in-cheek tag? IMO it's even worse than current implementation of a Teasing tag - it's as vague as it can be and may as well be put randomply across all comedy vns - noone gonna notice any difference.Last modified on 2019-07-20 at 15:12
#43 by fuukanou
2019-07-20 at 15:15
Legal Loli Heroine seems a bit pointless to me. Pretty much all games have the "all characters >18 years" spiel at the start and so it's kinda redundant to mark all of them as legal.
#44 by bobjr2000
2019-07-20 at 15:56
I would say legal loli sounds weird when have games with teenage loli that are not illegal or legal depending on protagonist age for consent.
#45 by usagi
2019-07-26 at 19:14
Nakige is epitome of vagueness too. At the time in last half of 90s the term was introduced to divide typical eroges like Immoral Study Scenario 1: Shirakawa Reiko or Viper-M1 which were considered as Nukiges (despite that by modern standarts many of them are not nukiges) from novels with focus on romance and drama like To Heart - which were novelty at the time.
That said, going by modern standarts, the tag can be applied for practically majority of vns now. The term is just outdated and is not fit to nowadays environment.. Many users though decided to invent their own unspoken rules and start to apply the tag for some especially dramatic moeges like vns from Key or Minori. Which WASN'T initial purpose of that term - it was meant to help navigate among sea of "nukiges" at that time. I am not even saying that there isn't even hint of requirement for special level of drama in description etc. - and that it's still vague as hell. The Nakige tag has the same right to be here as denied Moege tag - since both of them are practically synonyms (and Shuffle!, judging by tag description, has the same right to be Nakige as Kanon - despite that they have tremendously different athmosphere).
Still, I am not claiming that the tag, in it's "unspoken rule" form - is absolutely useless. It's not. But it's practically impossible to make clear description for it - therefore mistagging is unavoidable.Last modified on 2019-07-26 at 19:42
#46 by warfoki
2019-09-26 at 14:57
So... uhm... this thread exists. Hey... uhm... I mean, I'm just a day late if you think about it. I mean... I've never said on which Wednesday I'm going to put these changes into practice and it's Thursday now, right? Right...? Yeah... ehm...

Anyway, with that awkwardness aside, let me address the issues that was brought up after I last visited the thread:

Route Selection and Common Route Selection - For now I'll just add Route Selection, Common route Selection seems a bit more problematic and deserves a bit more discussion probably.

____________________________

Tongue-in-cheek - Yeah, you do have a point there. Consider it added to the tags to be deleted.

____________________________

Legal Loli Heroine - since pretty much nobody has used this trait since it was introduced aside of the initial couple taggings, I concur. Will be deleting this too.

____________________________

Nakige - Genre tags are unavoidable vague by default. Like, define Thriller to me EXACTLY. Sure, there are some common traits to them, but everything is vague and allows for a lot of borderline cases. This is true for every genre. As such, I don't see the point of deleting Nakige, unless we also want to remove most other genre tags.

Seeing that I resurrected this thread, I'll wait until Sunday to actually put these into practice. Anyone has anything to add / criticize, do so until them. After that I really got to move on, the lion's share of this overhaul is still ahead.
#47 by sakurakoi
2019-09-26 at 16:54
Nakige - Genre tags are unavoidable vague by default. Like, define Thriller to me EXACTLY. Sure, there are some common traits to them, but everything is vague and allows for a lot of borderline cases. This is true for every genre. As such, I don't see the point of deleting Nakige, unless we also want to remove most other genre tags.

Yet other -ge are being denied for the very same reason and ironically, ain't it well defined?~

Seriously, Nakige is not a genre, there is no "exaggerated" drama that gets a new term in any other media and yes, that's indeed what Nakige are seen as here. "Drama does not do those works justice" is obviously BS yet exactly what results in a work being tagged like that in the first place. "The drama is strong enough to make even make a manly man cry and if you don't you are a monster" some say. Zo mark a drama as being a good one, a touching one but alas human emotions are quite limited before they start overlapping and that's Genre in their own way clearly define.

Drama is supposed to get one emotionally invested, feeling for the characters, both, anger and sadness. That is also supposed to be vague and not literary commanded (forced) by the author. Incidentally the genre known as Tragedy which is close to it has been usurped by Utsuge, obviously wrongly so in more ways than one. Meanwhile the Tragicomedy genre which is Nakige without needless restrictions (and biased tagging) just ain't here.

At this point I really am surprised that no one during the making of the tag system thought "well, since we don't need a separate genre system, let's first add any reasonable literary genre even if just as point if reference for what is possible". Plus points if it actually was denied.
#48 by [deleted]
2019-09-26 at 17:42
With Scenario Selection planned for deletion, we still need a replacement tag for the aspect of it that t12533.24 and t12533.26 mentioned, which Route Selection(not arguing against its creation, it's still needed) and Restart from Chapter Index don't cover. If Scenario Selection gets deleted without a suitable replacement for that aspect of its usage, other tags will likely get misused in its void. I'm not sure what a good replacement would be, however, it might be better to retain Scenario Selection until someone thinks of one.Last modified on 2019-09-26 at 17:48
#49 by kiru
2019-09-26 at 18:26
Why even delete a tag that's obviously needed? It can be the parent of any other tag defining things more restrictively.
#50 by warfoki
2019-10-02 at 10:03
@Sakorakoi

*sigh* Fine, I'll make a separate discussion thread for this. I'm not going to just remove it willy-nilly, because somehow I have a feeling that it would cause the mother of all backlashes. Personally I lean towards agreeing with you, but as nobody else have complained to me about it, I'm not sure about it.

@Namingmegently

Fine, I'll leave it for now, deal with it in the next phase. We really gotta move on at this point.

@Kiru

Because a tag LIKE it is needed, but Scenario Selection is so underdefined and has been used to mean so many different things, that it has become absolutely meaningless. Seeing the tag on a VN tells me nothing about said VN. Therefore a more well defined tag is called for.

If there are no more objections, I'll get this done in a couple hours.

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