Traits: Shemale vs Futanari distinction

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#26 by bobjr2000
2019-07-01 at 23:25
#25 but not all transwomen are gay just look at Kardashian father still dating women and other trans.

And not all traps are not all gay just look at the cross dressing protagonist that some how end in all girls schools having sex with them.
#27 by eacil
2019-07-01 at 23:33
Wrong, Ensemble's otokonoko appear to not be gay because they didn't meet me yet! Those school are like jail. You have to go with what you have. It's a common mistake.Last modified on 2019-07-01 at 23:34
#28 by [deleted]
2019-07-02 at 06:44
I had a thought: rename the existing Futanari trait to Futanari (Penis & Vagina) and create a separate trait called Futanari (Penis Only). Clunky but clear enough to prevent mistagging.
#29 by eacil
2019-07-02 at 07:16
Futanari can't have only a penis...
It's even worse than tagging her with newhalf. At least it fits the appearance.
Instead of creating a trait for one use case (but why are we doing that in the first place when there are TOO MANY TRAITS? /warfoki), you better stick with Gender Change (which should be named Sex Change btw). If you can't describe the state as of now, you can compromise by describing the action.
#30 by [deleted]
2019-07-02 at 07:44
If people are really dead set on the existing VNDB definition of futanari being the only right one, that's fine. I don't have any other suggestions for working around the limited usefulness + prone to misuse problem for the proposed trait, though, and by warfoki's usual standards that should be enough to reject it.
#31 by warfoki
2019-07-02 at 12:54
...

I don't even know what the hell you guys are even talking about at this point.

Basically Minah put it in a nice bullet-point format at #6. I've yet to see a better version. After that the thread got derailed about Intersex, some random insistence on how the two concepts aren't split up elsewhere (which I shot down pretty quick) and then some random gay jokes.
#32 by savagetiger
2019-07-02 at 15:52
Remember that the 'Futa' in the word means two. aka both genitals.
#33 by eacil
2019-07-02 at 19:58
Just discussing how
- cis female character who grows a penis and loses a vagina would be tagged shemale but not trans woman
is wrong (a newhalf can't be born a woman) and if there is no roundabout way to fix it. My last proposition was to not tag her with futa or newhalf and use Sex Change instead (without an instance). I am not proposing against newhalf.
#34 by warfoki
2019-07-02 at 21:20
is wrong (a newhalf can't be born a woman) and if there is no roundabout way to fix it.

Oh but there is: not caring about the original gender. That's literally the point of having shamele / newhalf separated from all the trans-traits, those already deal with the gender change. Basically: both genitals, treated female with dick = futanari. Female looks, with breasts and all, but no vagina = shemale / newhalf. If this is the result of transitioning, then one of the trans traits also get applied. That's about it. Caring about the original gender completely defeats the point of making a new tag to begin with.
#35 by eacil
2019-07-02 at 22:32
Sometimes, trait/tag threads are giving me headaches. I understand why you go into depression for six months every six months.

You want to get rid of the gender, I understand that.
To me, gender is the software. Sex is the hardware. Assigned sex at birth is not software and part of the gender issue, but just hardware. "Rewiring" is still not gender related, it is about body features. Transformation if you prefer. Not something invisible like gender which is part of the psychological layer. If we don't know about the assigned sex at birth, it's not a problem because it's defaulting to inclusion.
The salt of newhalf is the fact they were male at birth as much as otokonoko are not girls with penises.
It is a gender issue but it doesn't concern the character itself, issue which we want to get rid with, but the individual for who the fetish exist, the user.

It's more of a naming problem imo.
But like I said in #24, I am not adamant because I understand the need and it's an exception I can bear with. If the newhalf trait was filled with 80/100 girls who swapped their vagina for a penis, I wouldn't be happy because it's not what newhalf are.
I am not adamant because lolitas are treated the same and I have no problem with that but I could say that age is less an issue to the user than sexual orientation (unless you are lolicon obsessed with age).
I am finally not adamant because you character is tagged female so all I would have to do is filter female characters out of the newhalf category. It would become a problem with instance, though.

(Fuck, I had to check your character to finally understand how it was processed (instance, no instance?) and I spoiled myself with a character I deeply care about ;_______;
Yeah, if it's a femdom thing, it's even less relevant for her to be tagged newhalf because it is more a variation on peniban than anything else.)Last modified on 2019-07-02 at 22:34
#36 by artumis
2019-07-03 at 03:00
I hadn't realized there weren't tags for this kind of character. Generally speaking I'd think this would fall under Dickgirl as it's been my understanding that this is quite different from Futanari, though the thread seems to indicate I'm a minority in considering Futa and Dickgirl to be different. Ideally we'd be able to tag this easily, but in general everything just kind of gets lumped with Futa if the individual in question is female. Understandable when it's coming from people who aren't particularly interested in the particulars of the tag, but certainly there's a compromise to make somewhere. Like child tags for Futa differentiating the configuration of the genitals. It's not exactly accurate to have a "Futa with no Vagina" but it's accurate enough considering most of the community doesn't differentiate well when it comes to more nuanced traits.
#37 by warfoki
2019-07-03 at 03:15
It's not exactly accurate to have a "Futa with no Vagina" but it's accurate enough considering most of the community doesn't differentiate well when it comes to more nuanced traits.

Doing this with child traits is not a good idea. First of all, you cannot search for a parent trait alone. You can exclude the child traits, but that takes effort and might not be enough. If we lump everything under Futanari, then searching for actual futanaris will become harder.

One, admittedly crude but surely effective, solution would be clarifying it in brackets. So, for example Futanari would be renamed Futanari (Both Genitals). This could prevent an e-hentai like mess where people constantly misuse both tags.
#38 by skorpiondeath
2019-07-03 at 11:51
- I don't see anything wrong to clarify the term with "Futanari (Both Genitals)" since the common idea is that no one read descriptions inside tags (making the effort of writing them kinda meaningless)

- One consideration:
To me, gender is the software. Sex is the hardware. Assigned sex at birth is not software and part of the gender issue, but just hardware. "Rewiring" is still not gender related, it is about body features. Transformation if you prefer.
I agree with eacil about this, even without considering gender, the sex (hardware) is still an issue. An issue someone can complain about. Then keeping the hierarchical structure why not making a generic "Body Transition" tag and then as children a "Newhalf (MtF)" tag and "Body Transition (FtM)" just to keep it simple and clear?
This helps searching for every "Body Transition" but we can go deeper and just search for Male to Female characters.
Also Transsexual can go under "Body Transition" since every Transexxual (Transman and Transwoman) had a body transition.
The personality trait Transgender then covers the gender aspect of characters without surgery.
Maybe "Body Transition (SRS)" or "Body Transition (Surgery)" is better to avoid the confusion with magical transformation.

- Off topic: why Crotchless Fishnet Pantyhose got stuck in queue that's how they are called in real life too, we also have Crotchless Pantyhose approvedLast modified on 2019-07-03 at 12:17
#39 by warfoki
2019-07-03 at 12:24
Ohh... it's because I shifted around the example images to have one per line for a cleaner look, and then I clicked submit while completely forgetting to change the status from "awaiting moderation" to "accepted"... -.-"
#40 by warfoki
2019-07-07 at 23:46
Bumping the thread to actually have things get done.

So, currently my solution here:

1) Rename Futanari to Futanari (Penis + Vagina)

2) Repurpose the old Dickgirl trait. Change the name to Dickgirl (Penis & No Vagina). Make the description a bit more specific and link the trans-traits in there as well.

3) Add the Shemale and Newhalf aliases from Transwoman to Dickgirl. We can't have the same alias on two traits, so Dickgirl will have Shemale (Dickgirl) and Newhalf (Dickgirl) as aliases, while Transwoman will have Shemale (Transwoman) and Newhalf (Transwoman) as aliases. This way both tags will come up if anyone searches for shemale or Newhalf, as both are relevant.

This should cover all bases. It makes it obvious at first glance when should which tag be used, having the dickgirl as the main name instead of irl slurs for transwoman removes all confusion on that front (and on the side it also happens to be PC, so yay I guess) and allows the tag to be purely about biological features and not about transitioning.

Opinions?Last modified on 2019-07-08 at 00:25
#41 by skorpiondeath
2019-07-08 at 00:04
If we don't wanna cover body transition I have nothing to add. Your proposal seems a good one expecially for the alias trick and sticking on the biological features seems the best thing to do. It will be nice to finally separate Futanari from Dickgirls.
#42 by ᔕᕼᖇOOᗰᒪOᖇᗪ
2019-07-08 at 00:36
#40
Yes, please. The most basic requirement for the futanari tag should always be a penis AND vagina. It's literally in the name.

Are you planning on tweaking tags like link as well?
#43 by warfoki
2019-07-08 at 00:41
Oh boy, I forgot those existed... Since this seems to be a sexual fetish based on looks, maybe change "transwoman" to "dickgirl" and add all the relevant aliases as well? Having separate sex trait like this for transwoman and dickgirls seems awfully redundant and confusing honestly...
#44 by eacil
2019-07-08 at 03:39
Can't we have:
Futanari (Penis + Vagina)
Dickgirl (FtM & Penis & No Vagina)
Shemale/Newhalf (MtF & Penis & No Vagina)
Tranwoman
?

Two traits will be empty as hell but as long as it axes the freaking hydra, I think we should be grateful they are here to keep us safe.
Transwoman would only tackle the gender identity issue as an extra layer.

About the "male on"/"on male" action traits, you could just rename Male on Transwoman as Male on Dickgirl/Newhalf/Transwoman as they separately are not enough as of now to warrant separate traits, what should be easy to fix if ever (never) one of the category takes more room.
#45 by warfoki
2019-07-08 at 09:50
Dickgirl (FtM & Penis & No Vagina)
Shemale/Newhalf (MtF & Penis & No Vagina)

And what to tag the characters, who never specify which are they with? If you don't have an origin story, just a dickgirl for fetish fuel, then what? What if it's neither, because it's a fantasy setting where dickgirls just exists because why not? That's why pretty much the entire point of this trait is not caring about the entire gender transition aspect.Last modified on 2019-07-08 at 09:51
#46 by skorpiondeath
2019-07-08 at 11:48
And what to tag the characters, who never specify which are they with? If you don't have an origin story, just a dickgirl for fetish fuel, then what?
If we want to keep track of transitioning then why dont we use eacil proposal with a little addition of a generic Lv1 tag "Dickgirl (Penis & No Vagina)" for generic cases?
Then we can have 2 child tags to use when the origin story is well known instead.
Example:
Lv1) Futanari (Penis + Vagina)
Lv1) Dickgirl (Penis & No Vagina)
--- Lv2) Shemale/Newhalf (MtF & Penis & No Vagina)
--- Lv2) Dickgirl (FtM & Penis & No Vagina)Last modified on 2019-07-08 at 11:48
#47 by eacil
2019-07-09 at 19:25
I said headaches.
Hm... how to show that if no direction, it must default to Newhalf?

Newhalf/Shemale (noFtM & Penis & No Vagina)

?
#48 by donkeyskin
2019-07-09 at 20:20
About the "male on"/"on male" action traits, you could just rename Male on Transwoman as Male on Dickgirl/Newhalf/Transwoman as they separately are not enough as of now to warrant separate traits

It's also true that right now in the database Transwoman is a child trait of Transsexual and only stands for post-op transgender women.

That means that currently in Male on Transwoman, the transwomen should only have a vagina, so putting them together with Dickgirl/Newhalf (who have a dick) could be counterproductive for fetish purposes. If that tag was originally intended to stand for "Male on woman with a penis", then the current name is misleading.
#49 by artumis
2019-07-10 at 04:07
I certainly agree that keeping tags as separate as possible is for the best and #40 seems to be a solid direction. Since the discussion is about adding clarity, the easily confused "3 types of futa"; Penis + Vagina (true Futa), Dickgirl (Girl with only a Penis), and Newhalf (Guy with boobs, etc. but still a Penis) are probably best off as unrelated tags. I'm not certain if there would be value in any sort of umbrella term for the lot of them ("Non-standard Genitals" or such) but separating these three is a solid direction and we can try to address an impacted tags like "Male on/on Male" as needed.
#50 by beliar
2019-07-10 at 07:44
It's also true that right now in the database Transwoman is a child trait of Transsexual and only stands for post-op transgender women.
Erm, not really true as far as the trait is applied. Back when Nutellafan was taking up the task of sorting the traits and the tags, I think there was a discussion about separating the Transwoman trait into non-op and post-op, but there just weren't enough post-op trans characters to justify such a split.

As you notice the description also says nothing about such a thing, rather to the contrary - it directly says that a Transwoman is not futanari, a clarification which would not be needed if the trait didn't apply to non-op characters.

And finally, I just looked at the characters that a assigned the trait, and just as I suspected all of them are non-op.

Sure, the child trait Transsexual says that a permanent transition is a requirement, but when I assign the trait, I take a laxer definition of permanent, which to me means that a character should have at least one female sexual characteristic, namely breasts - either as a consequence of HRT or implants. And frankly, for all-ages novels I'm even laxer.

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