Traits: Shemale vs Futanari distinction

Posted in

#51 by donkeyskin
2019-07-10 at 09:42
#40 by warfoki: I think your solution is okay up so far.

But is it still needed to keep Shemale as an alias for Transwoman? I can't imagine a situation in which someone is typing 'shemale' while adding traits and actually means to apply 'transwoman' instead.

#49:
I'm not certain if there would be value in any sort of umbrella term for the lot of them ("Non-standard Genitals" or such)

I think that separating these traits under a common parent trait could certainly help. Something like "nonconforming" (as in gender nonconforming) but for genitals? But there's probably a better term.

What if it is made explicitly apparent that these are terms used in hentai/for fetish purposes and not at all regarding topics like gender/transitioning?
Specifying it in a trait name like "Dickgirl (hentai term)" or a parent trait "Hentai features"?

#50: If Transwoman can be used interchangeably for both pre-op and post-op, shouldn't it also be a child trait of Transgender? In this way, it would mirror the irl term which can used in both cases:
Traits > Body > Features > Transsexual > Transwoman
Traits > Personality > Transgender > Transwoman

Sure, the child trait Transsexual says that a permanent transition is a requirement, but when I assign the trait, I take a laxer definition of permanent, which to me means that a character should have at least one female sexual characteristic, namely breasts - either as a consequence of HRT or implants. And frankly, for all-ages novels I'm even laxer.
So by that, you mean they still have to have started some sort of transitioning? Then in that case I still cannot use Transwoman interchangeably with pre-op characters.

off-topic: what happened to Minah?? :(
#52 by warfoki
2019-07-10 at 10:32
Oh, ffs, this IS a headache, Eacil was right on the money with that...

What if it is made explicitly apparent that these are terms used in hentai/for fetish purposes and not at all regarding topics like gender/transitioning?
Specifying it in a trait name like "Dickgirl (hentai term)" or a parent trait "Hentai features"?

While, at the core, this isn't a bad idea, butI dickgirl will already have the state of their genitals in brackets, which I think is more useful and specific than "hentai term". We also already have Genitals as mate umbrella trait, no need for more than that.

#50: If Transwoman can be used interchangeably for both pre-op and post-op, shouldn't it also be a child trait of Transgender? In this way, it would mirror the irl term which can used in both cases:
Traits > Body > Features > Transsexual > Transwoman
Traits > Personality > Transgender > Transwoman

Seems to makes sense, so why not, sure.

off-topic: what happened to Minah?? :(

Oh... well, based on Yorhel's comments, the "deleted" thing only shows up when the user's account is permanently deleted (not banned), which only ever happens if said user asks for it, so... I guess she retired from VNDB. That makes me sad, now. :(Last modified on 2019-07-10 at 16:27
#53 by beliar
2019-07-10 at 15:48
Off topic:

Minah!!! No!!! This is really sad and it seems that vndb now lost its only two female mods. Nutellafan quietly retired a long time ago, and Minah now seems to have requested an account deletion.
Maybe the recent trend of women bashing by some colourful personas was too much for her?...

That said, Yorhel should really look into finding a new promotion to dbmods soon, as the database is expanding, while the number of mods has been shrinking steadily for a while. Now only Shinnew consistently moderates Japanese releases, and Decay shows only sporadic activity (understandable, as he is involved with various localization groups).
#54 by yorhel
2019-07-10 at 15:57
That makes me sad, now. :(
I know, right? That was the most painful action I had taken in the history of VNDB. :(

Maybe the recent trend of women bashing by some colourful personas was too much for her?...
She claimed it was for other reasons, unrelated to VNDB.
#55 by sakurakoi
2019-07-10 at 16:55
She claimed it was for other reasons, unrelated to VNDB.
I figured she had tougher (virtual) skin than that... wait, Minah was a she? I didn't figure that (and warfoki apparently neither since he first wrote he) which means that we lost a good woman indeed and a good (hu)man for that matter anyway.

OT: This is a cluster-duck discussion which imho really should just boil down to us having:
-has both genitals, no balls (Futanari without Testicles)
-has both genitals, with balls (Futanari with Testicles)
-has boobs and only a penis regardless of balls and initial sex (Dickgirl, Shemale or whatever termini)
-Intersex, transwoman and transman when initial sex is known and changed for the latter two (regardless of what the genitals are) for intersex would also technically be one trans depending on which sex they pick.

The prior two are indeed important for fetishes since rather than the D being seen as male symbol, it's the balls.
But well, first and foremost I'd suggest to split Ladyboy, Newhalf and Shemale from Transwoman and make it its own trait... and that's about it. Newhalf would probably the "politically correct" term even if "slang" (there simply is no recognized term for that). Ladyboy is more "offensive" and so is Shemale while Dickgirl is rather "vulgar" for obvious reasons (why it is not seen as offensive I do not know).

In the first place, what about transwoman who had sex reassignment surgery? They ain't Shemales and whatever then hence why indeed it is a fair point to finally split them.

1) Rename Futanari to Futanari (Penis + Vagina)
I rather find insane. I know that you go by Murphy's law but that's going too far for a problem that is none. Terms that actually do not precisely (yet possible be not 100% accurately) describe the supposed definition will make many more actually read the description. A separate and less vulgar Newhalf trait already helps enough to prevent rare cases like the one in #1... which by all means should be labeled transmen. Ya know, female to male, dat very rare case which Newhalf technically covers since it does not specify what changed. Hefemale as counterpart also sounds absolutely stupid, letting Newhalf it remain as umbrella term is rather fair.

I still do not get why transwoman was used in that case. Neither trans actually has to have a gender identity different to their birth sex, it's just a very common reason, if one ain't a honest pervert like in this very case. Transgender is a linked matter but is not interchangeable even if it is a transgender (man who thinks she is a) woman.
#56 by warfoki
2019-07-10 at 17:36
Terms that actually do not precisely (yet possible be not 100% accurately) describe the supposed definition will make many more actually read the description.

Over 6 years of experience with handling shit like this says otherwise and I'd rather err on the side of caution than to have another clusterfuck trait to fix a year or two down the line.

Ya know, female to male
Except not, since she isn't transitioning from one gender to another, as I explained in the spoiler segment, she very much considers herself a woman still, not a newhalf or a man. To put it crudely: she gets a dick, but isn't transitioning anywhere.

This is why I don't want the either the new trait or Futanari to have anything to do with transitioning, just body features, nothing more, nothing less.
#57 by sakurakoi
2019-07-10 at 18:31
Except not, since she isn't transitioning from one gender to another
The only point I might ever coincide with this "movement" is that gender and sex should be seen as separate to avoid this very confusion. She is not transitioning from one gender but one sex to another.

she very much considers herself a woman still, not a newhalf or a man. To put it crudely: she gets a dick, but isn't transitioning anywhere.
So again, transsexual is not the very same as transgender, what she considers herself is irrelevant and considering that not all transsexuals transition completely, she is indeed trans just by getting a dick. Should have been fine with a strap-on but nah... and that's what makes her trans indeed.

Just because she considers herself whatever does not make her avoid the consensus on that getting a dick as a woman makes her a a transsexual which has nothing to do with identify or if she does it just because she is a pervert.

This is why I don't want the either the new trait or Futanari to have anything to do with transitioning, just body features, nothing more, nothing less.
Which should make my take pretty much along the lines of your thoughts. Newhalf is just the body type, nothing more, nothing less. Applying it only to transwoman is an utter mistake to make and which slang tends to because no one bothers to actually make it a practical term and then it leaves no proper umbrella term or quite the opposite like in case of the terms "gay" and "lesbian" which simply leaves no term for homosexual man (and in this case, transmen).

Otherwise you can only abuse Intersex as main name which only has 5 entries. I really do not know about that though, making intersex cover dickgirls, shemales, newhalves, ladyboys &c...

Over 6 years of experience with handling shit like this says otherwise and I'd rather err on the side of caution than to have another clusterfuck trait to fix a year or two down the line.
The irony will then be that even though you made it fool-proof, some fool will still be able to make you deal with it again when you could first reprimand them and only consider dealing with this time consuming task when the fools and frequency does amass (which incidentally makes also the problem clearer). You can not take out the human element out of the db, ever, for definitions and terms will always be challenged or misunderstood.

You will have to make many more parentheses if you want to clarify each possibly misunderstood term.
#58 by bobjr2000
2019-07-10 at 18:54
#57 I understand logic but according to Merriam dictionary there is no difference between between transsexual and transgender. One does not implicitly state they had any operations only a possibility.

Saying some one is transgender and not transsexual would technically be incorrect. Just adding more fuel to the fire.

linkLast modified on 2019-07-10 at 19:25
#59 by skorpiondeath
2019-07-10 at 19:17
@58:
Saying some one is transgender and not transsexual would technically be incorrect.
that is incorrect. link

So a transexxual is a transgender while not every transgender is transexxual.Last modified on 2019-07-10 at 19:22
#60 by bobjr2000
2019-07-10 at 19:33
except a transsexual doesn't always identify as opposite sex at birth. Just as a man has physical operation to have some female body parts not all do full operation. Some still identify as male for their gender and sexual preference is heterosexual. They may be transsexual but don't view themselves as transgender.
#61 by eacil
2019-07-10 at 20:35
You are really uselessly derailing the subject at hand which is to find a way to incorporate the freaking exception brought by #1. Currently, the problem being naming.

I have another proposition that seems way easier:
Futanari
Female/Futanari to Newhalf
Newhalf/Shemale
Tranwoman

Honestly, people who don't know what a futanari is are the exception and having to put (Penis + Vagina) next to futanari is quite ridiculous to me. I said nothing because it made sense, we had to clarify the difference between this shitty dickgirl portmanteau and futanari/newhalf, but with this solution, when someone searches for newhalf to apply the trait to your exception, he will be able to find the solution. If he starts by applying futanari, I mean, the guy is so wrong in the first place and we better put definition in brackets if they are our new standard in stupidity. She didn't even transitioned from futanari but from a female state...

Please, Warfoki, don't point something obvious that would destroy this simple construction. I beg you.Last modified on 2019-07-10 at 20:38
#62 by donkeyskin
2019-07-10 at 21:05
^
Regarding that particular character, as you already said in message #29 why can't we take the easy way and just leave it at "Sex change"? That's LITERALLY what happened to that character.

note: if Transwoman does end up getting splitted from its Ladyboy, Newhalf and Shemale aliases, it would be nice to have the MtF and amab (assigned male at birth) aliases added in their stead. (Same thing for Transman and ftm and afab)
#63 by warfoki
2019-07-10 at 22:41
@Eacil: We don't have this issue, because we don't have both futanari and shemale tags, only futanari, but while it may seem ridiculous, the two tags get confused with one another and mistagged ALL THE TIME on exhentai, so it's not like I'm being paranoid about this for no reason.

And it could be worse on our end, since unlike exhentai tags, this is not a voting system, it's an on or off one, and my experience with that is people are lot more hesitant to overwrrite bad traits on character pages, since their edit isn't one opinion cast among many.
#64 by artumis
2019-07-11 at 03:12
Best to try and keep things limited to purely physical attributes. Additional Traits can be applied in conjunction with the physical trait as needed when tagging. For example Traps don't require Men with Men Sex. Similarly, we can keep these traits separate from a character being Transsexual, Transgender, etc. even if those terms might apply in conjunction without being aliases.

While propositions like "Futanari (Penis + Vagina)" might seem like overkill, we do have things like the aforementioned Men with Men Sex which is very clear about what "Gay Sex" is. It's not pegging, futa on male, genderbent sex, or anything else that might be mistaken as "Gay". It's Men with Men. (Hopefully I didn't pick a bad example considering the reverse tag is Lesbian Sex.)
#65 by eacil
2019-07-11 at 05:53
ExH is bad example.

They joined shemale and futanari tags with "dickgirl on/on dickgirl" tags, which means that when you search for shemale you get futanari. *This* is stupid. Not only it's annoying but it spreads the confusion.

Also, shemale is a recent tag compared to futanari and futanari was used as a replacement. I means those examples you saw might have been users not aware of the new tag, just old galleries, or a conditioned bad behavior.

Also, the ambiguity seen in doujinshi and manga is far bigger than the one seen in VN. A lot of time you don't see the vagina or only if you are focused on those parts. Sometimes, the dialogue alone will tell you what they are.
If vndb users do not read definitions, exh users tag without reading the galleries til the end if they even do.

You know why? Exh has a system that reward you the more you tag or comment and I can name some big point whores farming in the comment sections to the point it put me off from reading them. I tagged a whole lot and I can tell you galleries are tagged as fast as the light because you get the most points if you are the first to tag (3 points), and points count only before 100 mod powers are reached (20 guys at best I would say).

See, very bad example. The system doesn't favor accuracy.

I also thought traits on vndb were less subject to mistagging *because* it's not a vote system. You say you don't fix a trait if you are shy but I would say you don't put a trait in the first place if you don't know what you are doing, because the tag will not be seen, hidden in the crowd (you have to click Who? nobody uses), when the history tells you directly who failed when it's a trait. Edit wars are visible but a a tag being wrongfully denied from a VN (like I recently saw link being denied Male on Male Sex by two users even though it's on the damn cover) will just raise eyebrows and a quick "it's a vote system, it can be fix anytime soon in 20 years".
#66 by warfoki
2019-07-11 at 12:51
@Artumis: The reason why it's not called Gay Sex is because Gay is actually often used as a generic slang term for homosexuals in general, not just homosexual men, so it could be a source of confusion. The word "lesbian" doesn't have the same issue.

Also, traps having sex with males actually DO require Men with Men Sex to differentiate from traps who have sex with females.

@Eacil

While you do have a point with Exhentai's system, I still think it's better to be safe than sorry. While adding the genitals in brackets might seem excessive, if you think about it, it's ultimately harmless. It generates a longer trait name, but since it's going to be featured among body traits, which is a lot less overcrowded group than, say, the sexual ones, it won't clutter the character pages much, if at all. And that is really the only downside. If I'm right with my caution, it'll save the trait from being misused a ton. If I'm wrong... well, nothing really, no downsides on that end.
#67 by warfoki
2019-10-20 at 10:49
I'm bumping this thing back to relevance. I completely forgot that this thread existed until Skorpiondeath reminded me of it.

So, my current solution is basically what I outlaid in t12537.40, with the addition that Transwoman would be a child trait of Transgender, as suggested in t12537.51. This change has been sitting by idly long enough, so unless someone can convince me of a better solution within a day or two, this goes live.Last modified on 2019-10-20 at 10:51
#68 by beliar
2019-10-20 at 12:08
Excuse me, but what exactly constitutes as a dickgirl? I assume it's the same fantasy concept like a futanari, but without a vagina? If so, I have seen a few of those, but never imagined there were enough of them to warrant a separate trait.
Still, I'm interested to hear what kind of description are you gonna add to this new trait.
#69 by warfoki
2019-10-20 at 12:24
Basically, yes. Read the opening post of this thread to see where is this coming from and why do i think this would be necessary.
#70 by eacil
2019-10-22 at 09:16
Sorry, Warfoki, I am not letting you create new laws during Summer holidays. :3

You are proposing:

Futanari (Penis + Vagina)
Dickgirl (Penis & No Vagina)/Shemale (Dickgirl)/Newhalf (Dickgirl)
Transwoman/Shemale (Transwoman)/Newhalf (Transwoman)

right?

Your solution is uselessly messy because the distinction shemale/newhalf "dickgirl" and "transwoman" doesn't bring anything to the table transwoman couldn't take care by itself.
What's wrong with
Dickgirl (Penis & No Vagina)/Shemale/Newhalf
Transwoman
?
Instead you will mix up tranwomen pre-op and post-op so people who wants shemale regardless of their gender will have to search two categories.
It doesn't change the fact that you are aggregating two different things: dickgirl born female and dickgirl born male. At this point you better use Newhalf/Shemale with appearance only and maybe add one subtag Newhalf/Shemale (not born male).

Well, that's almost the last point I made in that thread:

Futanari (add Penis + Vagina if you must as I can't counter your "people are dumb" by "people are not *that* dumb")
Newhalf/Shemale (same, add Penis & No Vagina if you must)
Tranwoman (to deal with the gender layer)

and to deal with your exception of
cis female character who grows a penis and loses a vagina would be tagged shemale but not trans woman

Female/Futanari to Newhalf (you will explain in the Newhalf/Shemale trait that it must be born male or unknown, and if it's born female, it must use this trait > the "people are dumb" argument is countered by the fact that you find the two traits while typing "newhalf")
OR
Hereinabove subtrait Newhalf/Shemale > Newhalf/Shemale (not born male)
OR
Newhalf + Sex Change

The last solution keeps you from creating anything new. While the exception is the less accurate, you can filter women turned into newhalves by excluding Sex Change. The thing is, you started all this with an exception of an exception when we don't even have real newhalves in sufficient quantity.
I like the second solution. It's simpler.

I hope I didn't say something stupid but it's been three months since we talked about that.Last modified on 2019-10-22 at 11:19
#71 by warfoki
2019-10-22 at 13:11
Your solution is uselessly messy because the distinction shemale/newhalf "dickgirl" and "transwoman" doesn't bring anything to the table transwoman couldn't take care by itself.

It does: the process of transition. The entire point of being a transwoman is that the person was born male, but feels female and is in the process of transitioning. It's more than just the presence of certain genitals, it comes packaged with the entire identity / psychology issue. Not tagging pre-op characters with it can very much be misleading, if the story refers to such character as transwoman, people will tag it such, because, well, it makes sense and yet they would be misapplying the trait. And these things are quite often addressed in OELVNs and while you can pull the elitist "who cares about that trash" card, the matter of fact is that OELVNs are growing in number, popularity and quality and we should be able to properly categorize them.

On the other hand Japanese nukiges rarely ever bother with the entire transitioning, even if set in the real world. And then we aren't even talking about fantasy settings where shemales just... exist. Not transitioning anywhere whatsoever. Mixing these related, but ultimately different concepts together is just going to create a mess in the long run.

You second solution is just bad on multiple levels. It is, as you admit lacks accuracy. Simple isn't necessarily better, because the trait and tag systems both has to be set up in a way that the relations make sense and work regardless whether they have two examples in the database or two thousand. Plus the kind of case I started this discussion with isn't that rare in hentai, seen similar stuff in hentai mangas a lot. The fact that our system handles it as an exception that we cannot really place means that the system is inaccurate and need to be fixed before it's misused more.Last modified on 2019-10-22 at 13:11
#72 by eacil
2019-10-22 at 20:06
But why don't you want to tag pre-op character with transwoman? I never said the opposite.
Look at Minah's bullet list t12537.6, it's all taken care of.

I said the _third_ solution (Newhalf + Sex Change) lacks accuracy because nothing in the tag's title explain that you can apply Newhalf to female who get a dick. As if it would prevent people from applying it correctly (which is the irony here).

There are still two solution you didn't address.
-The first one is the most "accurate". It's really "exception of an exception"-looking.
-The second one is more elegant as it uses newhalf the same way lolita is used, on appearance only, exactly like the first solution, but by setting up a sub-space for newhalf-ized characters, when you type "newhalf", you will see that you can tag newhalf-ized characters too regardless of their sex of origin.
It's better than your dickgirl+newhalf because newhalf is not an alias of dickgirl as you conceptualized them and you can't discriminate real newhalves from your FtM exception. At minima you would have to create a distinct category Dickgirl (Penis & No Vagina & Not Born Male) but it would complicate everything.Last modified on 2019-10-22 at 20:08
#73 by warfoki
2019-10-22 at 21:09
Fuck it, I admit that I've no idea which number refers to what at this point. Instead of giving me bulletpoint versions and reference numbers, please elaborate, because at this point I've lost track what am I even arguing against / for.
#74 by beliar
2019-10-22 at 21:51
because nothing in the tag's title explain that you can apply Newhalf to female who get a dick
Frankly, I think Newhalf and Shemale should only be aliases for Transsexual and not for Dickgirl, because both of those terms refer to a non-op M2F transsexual. I believe using those traits in any other way is a mistake.

Imho, we only need to create a Dickgirl trait (without any aliases) for a fantasy concept, where a nominal female is born with a dick. (I still think there are precious few of VNs to really demand it, but whatever). Everything else is pretty much covered.

So:
* Born male, identifies and at least partial transitions to female - Transwoman trait as it is now
* Born male, identifies and fully transitions to female (I'm not sure there are even any VNs with such a character, but just in case to cover my bases) - Transwoman + Sex Change
* Born with both sets of genitalia - Futanari (no need for an explanation that the trait includes penis and vagina, because I feel very few people would make such a mistake)
* Born with vagina only, but can grow a penis at will - Penis Growth without a Futanari trait, unless the character spends a significant amount of time in the shifted form
* Born with male genitalia, but all the other secondary characteristics of a female - Dickgirl (no aliases, because I feel that associating terms Shemale or Newhalf with this trait would be a mistake and would actually confuse users, instead of clarifying anything). Though I think the parentheses could explain that this is a pure fantasy trait - we don't want people to start using it for transsexuals and the description might not be enough).
#75 by warfoki
2019-10-22 at 22:59
Frankly, I think Newhalf and Shemale should only be aliases for Transsexual and not for Dickgirl, because both of those terms refer to a non-op M2F transsexual. I believe using those traits in any other way is a mistake.

Imho, we only need to create a Dickgirl trait (without any aliases) for a fantasy concept, where a nominal female is born with a dick. (I still think there are precious few of VNs to really demand it, but whatever). Everything else is pretty much covered.
Problem is that there are other sited where shemale is used but for transwoman AND the fantasy concept. So it very much within the realm of possibility that people will simply search for that, and if the only thing they find is transwoman, will tag that, whether it is correct or not.

*sigh*

And for the umpteenth goddamn time: this trait Does. Not. Cover. Transition. It doesn't matter if they got operated on, born that way, made a wish with the tooth fairy, I don't care. It's a body trait. If a character has a fully female body, but a male set of genitals instead of a vagina, dickgirl applies. How and why they got to be that way, doesn't bloody matter. Avoiding the entire transitioning issue is the exact damn point of making this trait. We've been over this. Multiple times.

Reply

You must be logged in to reply to this thread.