Traits: Shemale vs Futanari distinction

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#76 by beliar
2019-10-22 at 23:15
If a character has a fully female body, but a male set of genitals instead of a vagina, dickgirl applies.
Then once again, why are we even inventing such an ambiguous trait like Dickgirl, if transition doesn't matter? We already have Shemale - let's use that one. On other sites Dickgirl is as frequently used to define futanari as it does transsexuals. So, repeating your own words "it very much within the realm of possibility that people will simply search for that" and will tag futanari characters with Dickgirl. That was the main reason why I rejected the trait when it was proposed for the first time.

If you actually want to be accurate in your traits and remove the ambiguity, you should include transition into the equation, but I suppose the traits would inflate and no one would bother using them correctly. In that case, we should go the opposite way and deal with the least amount of traits possible, which is why I'm against the creation of the Dickgirl trait too.
#77 by eacil
2019-10-22 at 23:23
Cis woman with a vagina and no penis = nothing duh
Cis woman with a vagina and a penis = Futanari
Cis woman with no vagina, a penis and breasts = Newhalf (not born male)
Cis woman with unknown genitals = nothing duh
Transwoman with a vagina and no penis = Transwoman
Transwoman with a vagina and a penis = Transwoman + Futanari > unlikely
Transwoman with no vagina, a penis and breasts = Transwoman + Newhalf
Transwoman with unknown genitals = Transwoman
Cis man with a vagina and no penis = no idea
Cis man with a vagina and a penis = Futanari (not born female) > don't think there is any need for this
Cis man with no vagina, a penis and breasts = Newhalf
Cis man with unknown genitals = nothing duh
Transman with a vagina and no penis = Transman
Transman with a vagina and a penis = Transman + Futanari > unlikely
Transman with no vagina, a penis and breasts = Transman + Newhalf (not born male) > kinda weird
Transman with unknown genitals = Transman

Voilà.
It works with:
Futanari
Newhalf/Shemale
>Newhalf/Shemale (not born male)
Trangender
>Transwoman
>Transman

Edit: yes, Newhalf/Shemale would be treated as a body trait with a subtrait that makes a distinction for those who want the original trait (i.e. what Newhalf/Shemale is supposed to be).
Edit2: it occurred to me that what you tried to do was for a transwoman pre-op to be tagged with both Newhalf (Dickgirl) AND Newhalf (Transwoman)? If I didn't understand that, I don't think anyone will. It looked like you didn't abide by your rule of not caring for gender/trans issues.Last modified on 2019-10-23 at 00:48
#78 by beliar
2019-10-22 at 23:45
You know Eacil, I think I agree with everything on your list. *nods* Good job, pal, get a virtual cookie. :-)

Transwoman with a vagina and a penis = Transwoman + Futanari > unlikely
Transman with a vagina and a penis = Transman + Futanari (unlikely)
In a futuristic game, with emphasis on body mods I can see that actually happening. I'll be disappointed if CD Project Red doesn't allow me to transition mid game and still keep both genitals in the upcoming "Cyberpunk 2077". :-D
#79 by warfoki
2019-10-23 at 00:17
Oh for the love of...

We already have Shemale - let's use that one.

We don't, that exactly the problem. We have Transwoman and shemale is an alias of that, which is NOT the same, since this trait comes packaged with the transition process and the entire born as a male thing.

And yes, initially i wanted to name this new trait Shemale (hence the thread title), the reason that this whole convoluted naming came up in the first place was that people rejected this on the basis of it being a negative slang and not polcorrect (which I didn't much give a toss about) and that people will confuse it with Transwoman (which I grudgingly had to admit was a legit point, therefore the name change).

@eacil: Thanks, that's a lot better. Though I think you mistook cis for cic, but we aren't splitting hairs on that.

With that being said, I think your system is more obtuse and complicated than mine and the entire system is fully centered around transitioning still. What I propose separates the process of transitioning from the body traits.

Tag dealing with transitioning:

transitions from male to female -> transwoman
transitions from female to male -> transman

Entirely separately from that:

Has a female body with both a penis and a vagina -> futanari
Has a female body with a penis and no vagina -> [new trait]

That's all. Futanari and [new trait] would say absolutely nothing about the characters sexuality or how they got their set of genitals.Last modified on 2019-10-23 at 00:18
#80 by eacil
2019-10-23 at 00:43
Hum... we really have a hard time understanding each other.

Futanari would tag BODIES with vagina + penis + breasts.
Newhalf/Shemale would tag BODIES with penis + breasts.
See, nothing about sexuality of biological sex.

EXCEPTIONALLY, "Newhalf/Shemale (not born male)" would be here only to please pains in the ass like me. Consider it like a gift given to a PITA coming in the trait thread and asking for a way to get newhalf/shemale as they are understood today (i.e. born as males). Imagine a whiner similar to the ones who came because the trap tag disappeared. You would agree to create a subtrait for that but the Newhalf/Shemale parent trait would still be about BODY FEATURES.

Then, you have the parent trait Transgender that take care of GENDER IDENTITY. You tag any character that defines itself as being explicitly transgender (transwoman or transman). It's a label you superpose over the traits which are taking care of body features. It doesn't overlap "Newhalf/Shemale (not born male)" because it's an exception that take care of the biological sex. There is no trait to tag biological sex so you have no other choice.

See, you have 2 body traits and one about gender. It is not centered about transitioning or whatever. I know it's the "Newhalf/Shemale (not born male)" that confuses you but it's more the exception to the system so we do not lose the original newhalf/shemale concept.

We can talk about a perfect system with biological sex, vectors, states and genders if you want. :)
If we didn't until now was because I thought it would never be accepted as we were more like fighting in a way to keep everything the most economical ever.Last modified on 2019-10-23 at 00:51
#81 by skorpiondeath
2019-10-23 at 17:21
Come on guys can we reach an agreement? Following this path these changes are never gonna happen. I almost feel sorry to have reminded warfoki about this thread... -.-

"Newhalf/Shemale (not born male)" would be here only to please pains in the ass like me.
Can you explain me what bothers you? I mean is it something you would exclude from your search?Last modified on 2019-10-24 at 12:01
#82 by eacil
2019-10-23 at 21:05
Pretty much. Newhalves born female to me are psychologically almost identical to futanari, which I don't really care about as they were my entry level to gayness. It's always disappointing (close to a boner killer) to discover in a doujin that when you thought you were shagging a man (or they were shagging you) is in fact a futa (or an ex-girl) because their female part was hidden until now. It's like 3/4 of the "kink" removed. I guess, it's the reverse situation of guys who think they will get laid by a nice woman and find out it's a crossdresser. :3

I don't think we are on a deadlock as what I explained in #80 was that he didn't understand we were agreeing on every point minus one. In fact, when I proposed 3 solutions, the last one was "Newhalf + Sex Change", which he would agree upon. I found it to be the less accurate because it doesn't allow to make the biological sex distinction and not every FtM newhalf will transition during the VN and use the Sex Change tag but I said somewhere else in this thread:
Technically, the example which triggered this discussion shouldn't be tagged newhalf as its essence is man to woman shifting and certainly not the opposite. I for sure wouldn't want to find this character when searching for newhalves. However, this is an exception and like we are talking about usability, I am for Minah's #6 table. If ever this "vagina turned into a penis" becomes a thing, new measures could be taken but I doubt it will...

But like I said in #24, I am not adamant because I understand the need and it's an exception I can bear with. If the newhalf trait was filled with 80/100 girls who swapped their vagina for a penis, I wouldn't be happy because it's not what newhalf are.
I am not adamant because lolitas are treated the same and I have no problem with that but I could say that age is less an issue to the user than sexual orientation (unless you are lolicon obsessed with age).
I am finally not adamant because you character is tagged female so all I would have to do is filter female characters out of the newhalf category. It would become a problem with instance, though.

I say we are pretty much close to a resolution.Last modified on 2019-10-23 at 21:07
#83 by warfoki
2019-10-24 at 10:31
Oh, now I finally understand. We are essentially arguing for the same system, except you want to to do an extra step and separatelly tag the shemale characters that did NOT start out as male, the parent shemale tag would be free of any assumption or notion of transitioning. Am I getting this right? Because if I do, then sure, I have no problem with this.
#84 by eacil
2019-10-24 at 10:35
yes yeS YESSSSSSSH
#85 by warfoki
2019-10-24 at 10:53
Now only the name remains to be settled. I figured dickgirl would be a neutral term, but seeing that this term is often used for futas as well, it can be confusing. Sure, adding the stuff in brackets as I originally mentioned would clear this up, but that looks incredibelly clunky.

Using Newhalf could be fine... I think. Maybe the entire brackets explanation can go to the description and the alias as well?

I'd like to make sure that people don't mistag shit, but at the same time if I keep up with the overly lenghty names, the character pages will look really messy rather sooner than later...
#86 by skorpiondeath
2019-10-24 at 11:49
adding the stuff in brackets as I originally mentioned would clear this up
Look warfoki I remeber we had a discussion on Sex Involving Smegma where you were afraid of misuse since you thought people could exchange it for precum. Actually I was doing a strict surveillance on the trait and I think there is no misuse because if that happens I can always go in and revert explaing the reasons.

So for this I'm more on eacil side... I think we should have faith on the community being able to make disctinction amongst Futanari and Newhalf. Also we can unleash eacil upon the guys who dares to make such a mistake (and eacil alone is a good deterrent not to make mistakes! :P)
Also having a good image example usually clarify more than the description alone.

Then we can keep the bracket long description as an ultimate option in case people do really make lots of mistakes. With statistics of mistakes on hand even eacil can't argue about it.

Then why the hell I'm still writing because my initial intent was just to ask eacil what's his next level to gayness!Last modified on 2019-10-24 at 18:15
#87 by warfoki
2019-10-24 at 14:46
Have we promoted Eacil to a vicious guard dog then or what? :P

Fine, we go with that naming convention then. I'll wait until tomorrow evening to see if there are any more objections, if not, this goes live.Last modified on 2019-10-24 at 15:17
#88 by beliar
2019-10-24 at 15:20
I'd like to make sure that people don't mistag shit
It's not mistagging that worries me - it's halftagging. I imagine there will be plenty of situations where transwoman with male genitals will be tagged only as a transwoman, or only as a newhalf. I can already see people searching for one of the terms, adding it as a trait, and not realizing that another trait should be added too.
But I don't think there is anything to be done regarding that, other than..
... unleash Eacil on the offenders.Last modified on 2019-10-24 at 15:20
#89 by warfoki
2019-10-24 at 15:39
That's unfortunately a very common issue, but with the number of tags and traits we have, sometimes even I forget to add certain things.
#90 by eacil
2019-10-24 at 21:58
GAOOOOOOO!
Ready to scare anyone.

The last time I checked for newhalves, I must have find like two VN...
I don't think it will be hard to monitor this trait.
I looked into Transsexual and I think it will be very good to transfer its subtraits under Transgender, next to Non-Binary, because notwithstanding the newhalf's mingling, it doesn't look helpful at all. It was supposed to tag characters who transitioned but all I find is newhalves and otokonoko. It will need a good cleaning. After that, Transgender will be able to make the distinction between trans men and women. One empty space will be left, which is a way to find fully transitioned characters. I am no OELVN expert but I only found Jasmin from Transwoman who appears to be a fully transitioned woman. I don't understand why, Beliar, you tagged her as a male. Even if her biological sex is "male", she has a vagina so she should be "female". So, I am proposing the Full Reassignment trait. Not a good name, I know.Last modified on 2019-10-24 at 22:07
#91 by beliar
2019-10-24 at 22:41
I don't understand why, Beliar, you tagged her as a male.
Erm, you are completely wrong. She has a nine inch long black python in her yoga pants.
I mean, look at the traits I have added to her: Subject of Blowjob, Engages in Anal sex? What gave you an idea that she is fully transitioned?
Frankly, I don't know of any fully transitioned characters in visual novels. Do we really need a trait for that, because I'm pretty sure there aren't any. Though I might be wrong.Last modified on 2019-10-24 at 22:45
#92 by eacil
2019-10-24 at 23:04
Her picture. I see no python, like nothing coming out of her crotch. It's flat. I know The Amanoja9's newhalves can hide their massive dick and testicles between their legs and work as "female" hostesses but we never witness this miracle afair. (Edit: I hide sexual traits by default.)
Now I want to play this game even more but it's a #☠## patreon. Maybe in six years we will have a 1.0 version, for a total of 4H of content. On the other hand I just read a lengthy post about the game being finished in two months, story-wise, with only the music left and some stuff here and there. So... a jump from 0.3 to 0.9? I love patreon.
#93 by beliar
2019-10-24 at 23:10
Her picture. I see no python, like nothing coming out of her crotch.
Let's attribute that to artistic license, shall we? *smirk*

Maybe in six years we will have a 1.0 version
Well, as you have already noticed, the next update should be the last one. I am a huge fan and supporter of the game, and the last build I have played (which was a few builds ago), already had 30 or more hours of content. The game is massive.

So... a jump from 0.3 to 0.9?
Not from 0.3, but from 0.31, as in there were 31 updates already and the 32nd update should be the final build.
#94 by warfoki
2019-11-07 at 12:18
Well, I left more than a day for any more objections. Since there was none, the discussed changes went live just now.Last modified on 2019-11-07 at 12:20
#95 by maggierobot
2019-11-07 at 17:27
Just to make sure, but what goes in the sex field for these newhalf (not born male) characters? I'm assuming it's female, but as of now, the character that started this all is marked as both. I'm guessing it was when people were tagging her as futanari but I don't know.Last modified on 2019-11-07 at 17:32
#96 by beliar
2019-11-07 at 17:35
It's the sex field, not gender field - in other words, what is in the pants that goes in the field. If a character has penis - male, vagina - female, both - both of course. So, a newhalf will always be male.
Unless the actual sex is a spoiler, in which case you should not input the spoilerous sex and rather lie about it.
#97 by maggierobot
2019-11-07 at 18:40
I see. This one seems like one of these spoiler cases, but I'm not familiar with the VN in question to make this judgment so I'll leave it to someone who are. Thanks for the quick answer.
#98 by eacil
2019-11-07 at 23:07
Newhalf + Newhalf (Not Born Male) > "If this character has such a body because of transitioning from male to female, please also use Transwoman."
I doubt most people know what transitioning implies so I would explicitly write "If this character identifies as a woman and has such a body because she is transitioning from male to female, please use Transwoman, additionally". I fear that with your definition, most newhalves will end up being transwomen.
Also, I don't know if you can call a woman who became a newhalf a transwoman if she is still identifying as a woman... it's weird... anyway, you can't really say she is MtF transitioning.

"Shamale Not Born Male"... Shamale???

Transwoman > aliases to remove: Ladyboy, Newhalf (transwoman), Shemale (transwoman) > did you just add those?

Also, please consider what I said in #90. I believe keeping transsexual AND transgender is hurting the purpose of this whole change.Last modified on 2019-11-07 at 23:07
#99 by beliar
2019-11-07 at 23:16
Shamale???
Haha... Fixed that.

keeping transsexual AND transgender is hurting the purpose of this whole change
I'm with Eacil here. There was a reason to keep the two traits separate, when we didn't have explicitly body-feature traits. However, now they are basically duplicates stating the same thing. They really need to be merged into one.
#100 by warfoki
2019-11-08 at 00:37
aliases to remove: Ladyboy, Newhalf (transwoman), Shemale (transwoman) > did you just add those?

No, I didn't. I just changed them, because the new trait was denied because of the old aliases and I was in a particularly boring class, fiddling with the thing on a shit wifi with a bluetooth keyboard and only a couple minutes left from said class, so I figured I just edit it to get it done and will think about the aliases later.

Will look at it tomorrow, dead tired right now.Last modified on 2019-11-08 at 00:38

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