Wouldn't be cool if a chat would be implemented?

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#1 by apalepexp201
2019-08-07 at 19:08
I don't know about you guys, but i would really love if there was a chat where we can all talk live every time we wanted about VNs, anime and other stuff related to this website, would like to be a more direct way to communicate with each other, what do you guys think? it's not a suggestion or something, just wondering how would be.
#2 by harp
2019-08-07 at 19:16
This has been brought up before. Well at least with some similarity.
You may interpret that as you please.
An option is to join the /r/visualnovels community, as quite many here are there as well.Last modified on 2019-08-07 at 19:20
#3 by ramaladni
2019-08-08 at 04:55
I think what you mean is called a 'discord server'. There are many VN-related discord communities already.

According to yorhel, he was never interested in building a community. Well, that kinda shows when we don't even have basic features such as adding friends, blocking users or even PRIVATE MESSAGES. It's rather ridiculous when even staff members have to talk about private and official issues out in the open because such a basic feature has yet to (and probably won't) be implemented.
#4 by yorhel
2019-08-08 at 08:47
To be fair, we do have private messages now, as a mod-only feature. I don't want to deal with the abuse that PM systems are typically used for, so that feature will likely not be available to others.

What is even the point of blocking users when there's barely any interaction in the first place?
#5 by lucumo
2019-08-08 at 10:20
Promote the IRC-channels, nothing ever happens on #fluffy. Discord is awful, unless you don't care about your data and privacy (which is apparently the case for a lot of people).
#6 by knighthart
2019-08-08 at 10:52
We all know implementing any more social features is gay. I respect the fact that vndb has never tried to go full connect like that, and sticks to the basic intentions.

>unless you don't care about your data and privacy
Why do people care so much about data privacy anyways. Unless you like, partake in questionable legal activities, I don't see why it would matter on a personal standpoint.
#7 by lucumo
2019-08-08 at 12:00
I mean, someone rummaging through your trash, watching inside through your windows at all times and recording everything you say to any person isn't much different. If you are fine with that...well, good for you. But you do know that "right to privacy" is a thing, right?
#8 by ramaladni
2019-08-08 at 13:41
>we do have private messages now, as a mod-only feature.

I see, I didn't know about that. I'm glad for that.

>What is even the point of blocking users when there's barely any interaction in the first place?

Can't argue against that either when only like 10 people chat frequently.

In the end, people gather and discuss visual novels in other places. There's no need for vndb to fill that gap.
#9 by sanahtlig
2019-08-08 at 14:15
recording everything you say to any person
Isn't that basically the Internet in a nutshell? If you really want privacy, you really shouldn't be writing it down in the first place. Basic common sense.Last modified on 2019-08-08 at 14:18
#10 by lucumo
2019-08-08 at 14:59
What the internet was and what it has basically become is quite different, especially these past ten, or so, years. And it's not for nothing that companies, governments and people fight for control over it.
#11 by truetakuma
2019-08-10 at 01:34
@6, That's stupid mindset to argue. 'nothing to hide' is a fallacy. Everybody got something to hide. And that's ok. Else why wont you[for example] post with your full legal name disclosing to all the internet your nukige preferences? no just for the internet, make it for your parents, friends etc

@9, Also 'there is no privacy in the internet' is again, another stupid argument. There is privacy; it's just people prefer convenience over privacy[just see the constant scandals with Google and Facebook].
Also, don't confuse anonymity with privacy.
There is a reason why this website is not some crap bloated with trackers and advertisements. Thanks to Yorhel implementing free and open-source software and protocols, we have an awesome vn database without requiring to give any personal information.

EDIT: If someday we have a vndb chat maybe IRC, Riot-Matrix or even Mumble server would be nice.Last modified on 2019-08-10 at 01:38
#12 by fuukanou
2019-08-10 at 01:54
#11, there's virtually nothing you can do about privacy unless you live in a bubble. For example, I used facebook about 10 years ago and added my family as friends. They still use facebook but I had long quit. Back then you only put in your name, email address and age (which I lied about). Now, 10 years later, I open up the facebook app on my phone, a new phone with a new number, and it shows me a 10 year old picture of my face and asks "is this you".

there is no complete privacy unless nobody uses social media. it doesn't matter what you do, there only needs to be one chink in the chain for it to all be spilt like beansLast modified on 2019-08-10 at 01:55
#13 by eacil
2019-08-10 at 02:32
Guys, did you look at the very bottom of this screen, like, to the right of "about us"?
#14 by knighthart
2019-08-10 at 05:36
>'nothing to hide' is a fallacy
There's a difference between actively trying to hide, and simply not going out of your way to give out your info. Just because someone didn't put out their full name, doesn't really mean they're intending to hide it. Continuing with that example, if your full name along with your internet usage did get exposed, would that really matter?
Though say you were doing something against the law, I could understand. Because if that were the case, when that information did get out, there would be actual effects.

It's comprehensible to not exactly want unneeded info leaked, as it could be bothersome and inconvenient for no good reason. But to go out of your way to try and make sure that doesn't happen- avoiding everything that isn't "data privacy secure"; I just don't understand. With the exceptions being business or legal intentions.
#15 by yorhel
2019-08-10 at 05:37
there's virtually nothing you can do about privacy unless you live in a bubble.
While true, it's also a pretty bad excuse in those cases where you *do* have a sensible choice in the matter. Also, living in a bubble isn't so bad!

But anyway, privacy isn't even such a big issue when it comes to public communities. IRC is slightly better than Discord in that not all of the messages on the entire platform are routed through a single company, but anyone willing to hoard chat logs is still able to.

My biggest problem with Discord is that it is yet another walled garden. In terms of what you're allowed to talk about, where your data is stored, which (closed-source) clients you can use, etc, you're fully at the mercy of a single company. And a company with some hundreds of millions of dollars worth of funding that needs to be paid back at some point, at that. They have absolutely no long-term incentive to help a little niche community, and thanks to the proprietary nature there's no simple migration path to another platform.

...but even ignoring all that, I'm not motivated to moderate an active community about VNs, a community about a VN database is quite enough. We did have a pretty active IRC channel back in the days (active enough that I had forced all not-directly-VNDB-related discussions to #fluffy - which I didn't have to moderate), but both #vndb and #fluffy are dead nowadays. A few half-hearted attempts at promoting the IRC channels haven't done much to bring them back to life, so I've given up on that.
#16 by bobjr2000
2019-08-10 at 14:32
#13 Just checked it out and learned yorhel favorite vn is Ever17 -The Out of Infinity-.
#17 by truetakuma
2019-08-10 at 19:39
@12 True but not quite. Facebook? you mean that company that uses dark patterns to spy on its customers(er users?) Shitty companies will be shitty, there are better alternatives, meaning more private and free(as in beer and freedom) alternatives.
Also, Bubble? I talk to my friends using FOSS software on daily basis. For example, Signal for mobile or Retroshare or IRC when I want to chat online, Mastodon for social media, all E2EE and federated so no outside server can know what we're doing. Also we use individious for youtube alternative(proxified youtube), etc

Again, do not confuse anonymity with privacy.
Privacy is achieved using strong encryption, not using shitty companies and using audited free and open-source software. See: link and link

@13, this is the standard PHP logging of most websites across the internet, bloated with Google apis and tracking advertisements. Difference is, he is spending his money to host (losing money!) this database and uses privacy oriented practices instead of bloating this crap with Google and other tracking(again, losing revenue), hosted in dutch jurisdiction and even if he is logging from the outside, you can self-host vndb because the code is open.

@14, the name was just an example. What about your emails? Care to share all your emails and personal sms messages? From your girlfriend to your mother to your boss…You have nothing to hide, so that should be ok, right?

if your full name along with your internet usage did get exposed, would that really matter?

Yes, of course. I cannot stress this enough. I’ll explain:
it means everything you say and do are being watched and sold to turn a profit (in practical matter you gain absolutely nothing from it) Not just that, this information is used to spread your targeted content(fake news), you are more subject to identity theft and hacking, it disrespect you basic right to privacy also you are less likely to act freely if you know people got dirt on you. The list goes on and on here, is a more complete explanation
link and linkLast modified on 2019-08-10 at 19:46
#18 by knighthart
2019-08-11 at 04:10
>Care to share all your emails and personal sms messages?
You completely missed my point. I can't think of reiterating it without literally just repeating what's been said. But I'll still attempt to do so in order to appease to your apparent retardation. Just because you're not directly feeding information, doesn't mean you have 'something to hide'. There's nothing to lose, but nothing to gain either. I'm not going to go out of my way to give you that information because why should I, but it doesn't really matter if you get it by your own means anyways. Why? Well

>it means everything you say and do are being watched and sold to turn a profit
So your argument is the fact that your information is used for other's gain? Cool, but do you lose anything? So what if there's an obvious procure for someone else, what does that mean to you?
Then there's >you'll act less freely knowing others are watching you. Which is probably the most retarded justification. That argument is very apparent in your links too. You're basically saying 'I want to say something but I don't want to be judged so I won't, so the fault is on those who're observing me'. But it fucking isn't. Just because someone has their eyes on you, doesn't mean you're limited in your actions because of it. That's of your own fucking obligation. Maybe if you're so scared of judgement you shouldn't put something out there to begin with, because furnishing your thoughts and actions to begin means it was intended to be received by others which would in turn, inevitably reenact their own judgement. Anyways I was getting a bit astray there, but really what I'm saying is that others aren't held accountable for your lack of or oppressed action simply because they're observers.

Now, for the point that d o e s make sense. You want your privacy because you're sustainable to hacking. That's simple enough. I never brought it up because of my limited understanding of "data privacy", and while it does make sense that a breach in that privacy would leave you open for hacking, the fact that it isn't made such a big deal because of that caused me to doubt it. I mean, you're basically saying that using an insecure service like Discord means you're going to get hacked! Those gosh darn niggs should be sued for giving out information capable of victimizing me to actions against the law. Just like being afraid to step outside because I could be stabbed, I guess I'll submit to paranoia and stop using open services of internet because I could be hacked. The only difference with the outside example is that nobody is letting you use some service, so you have nobody but yourself to hold accountable for doing it.Last modified on 2019-08-11 at 04:10
#19 by lordnight
2019-08-11 at 04:48
From a simple suggestion to adding a chat system to an in depth discussion about privacy...
...Another peaceful day at vndb~
#20 by bobjr2000
2019-08-11 at 04:52
well I feel this is best example why shouldn't invest anymore time in chat system. As been pointed out this seems to be common theme here.
#21 by eacil
2019-08-11 at 05:03
As long as we record sextapes of Knighthart's nocturnal activity on our own, without him having to set up the tripod, it's ok Truetakuma. If he complains because all his relatives got a link to the videos, it's his own fault for not liking to be watched, and he should have stopped from having sex, ever, in the first place.
Not sure who is the complete retard here.

Btw, Truetakuma, I have no idea what you are talking about. I just pointed to everybody here asking for a vndb's chat that such thing already exists.
#22 by truetakuma
2019-08-12 at 22:25
@18, If you have some personal info to protect, even if you think there is no much to lose or consequence in case of discovery, you have a threat model. It's all semantics if you call hiding or privacy.

Yes, of course I lose. My freedom. I have the right to do hell I want with my info and that's not for sale. Also, like your own threat model, I prefer to keep my information to myself instead of sharing to trackers, advertisements and hackers.

You thinking this too narrowly. People need privacy to shared information freely, to whistlebow oppressive regimes, protect from hackers, doxxing and bullying. Just to name a few examples. The point is do you actually believe malicious parties would not use your private information to gain power over your?
Idk about you but the fact Facebook and Google receive billion of dollars in revenue selling private information with target advertisement makes me wonder if private info is so irrelevant to lose as you say.

The nothing to hide argument fallacy lies in that there's absolutely no reason to believe that if you want privacy you're doing shady or illegal activities or even secrecy is something to be suspicious of. See the reasons in @17

Might be we just have really incompatible set of moral values if you see no problem with the current invasion of privacy in the internet. Shame.

It's not like you're are going to get pwned if you're using Discord. Sure.
Discord is not so susceptible to cross scripting and phishing attacks like before but Discord is already monetizing and selling your conversations with their 'trusted partners', if that matters to you.

@21, my bad I was under the impression you thought vndb privacy policy was bad when compared to other sites is actually pretty tamed. It even use libre.js, Thanks Yorhel for that!
#23 by pramit
2019-08-27 at 11:58
A long time ago I advertised a raidcall channel. There was barely any interest. While I am sure that there are more people now than before, I doubt its reached critical mass required to sustain a channel. Otherwise, there's no point in having a barren chat.
#24 by yorhel
2019-09-04 at 07:50
The interesting part about this thread is that absolutely nobody has joined the VNDB IRC channel as a result. So yeah, I also don't get the impression there's any interest.
#25 by sakurakoi
2019-09-04 at 08:46
The interesting part about this thread is that absolutely nobody has joined the VNDB IRC channel as a result. So yeah, I also don't get the impression there's any interest.
Well, it is IRC after all, it is pretty much ancient, hardcore or whatever that makes it ever more niche. Sure it technically survived Windows Live Messenger, Skype and Discord (it might survive as well), however it is far from being mainstream which is kinda important considering that fewer consider setting it up (which is also less convenient than mainstream indeed).

Still, I doubt there'd be an active vndb chat and even if, the more active it is, the more it needs or it descends into madness, memes and alike. "Critical Mass" does not just mean an amount which sustains itself, about always active and more joining than leaving, it also means just how likely it is to blow up/implode/have no actual use besides "entertainment" (for the trolls only, unless you can have some coherent chat at all).

vndb really has not that many active users that actually write and even if much more were to chat than that, that'd be still very little. Two dozen? Pretty sure no one there will stay glued to the chat and very few will allow it to bother them. Staying with a forum system is enough, even though it is quite minimalistic. One can write more, at one's pace and has little inconvenience.

I'd be more interested in a vndb-con... and I only went to a con (or com, Gamescom) once (long ago, for I was invited, then abandoned, it was close by). I hate being surrounded by too many people but somehow chats that go beyond private dialogue I abhor even more despite being less loud, more anonymous, less pressed to reply...


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