It needs to be fixed!
|#1 by weter|
2019-08-19 at 11:31
|Maybe someone wrote it before, but it doesn’t matter.|
This is a serious problem that interferes with the search for VNs and breaks the system itself.
Here are a couple of examples:
If we just write in the search -> Goshujin-sama Da~isuki -> We will get 3 VNs -> Good
Now, for example, I want to find a VN with a Group Sex tag (under it there are a lot of tags but it’s not important for me what exactly, the main thing is that there is group sex)
Now try to include the Group Sex tag -> Goshujin-sama Da~isuki +Group Sex tag -> We will get 0 VNs -> ??? -> Stop-stop, but if you look at Goshujin-sama Da~isuki it has Group Sex of One Male and Several Females , so what's the problem ??? -> OK??
OK, OK, now for example I don’t want to look at Group Sex at all. In order not to manually exclude all tags under it (such as Group Sex of One Male and Several Females , Double Penetration (Group Sex) , etc), you just need to exclude Group Sex , right?
Now try to exclude the Group Sex tag -> Goshujin-sama Da~isuki -Group Sex tag -> We will get 3 VNs -> Err -> But Goshujin-sama Da~isuki has Group Sex of One Male and Several Females , so ??? search system is broken ???
I think the fact is that people manually turned off the Group Sex tag in link (I have no idea why anyone is doing this)
If we just write in the search, for example -> Kyonyuu Fantasy
Now include Sexual Content -> Kyonyuu Fantasy +Sexual Content -> It became somehow less -> It's cool that the search excluded Kyonyuu Fantasy 2 it doesn’t have a single Sexual Content tag under it, right?
I gave an example with the search for names, because it is easier to find errors, without names it still does not work correctly.
If you exclude Male on Male Sex and include Bara [ link ] but you get 5 VNs, is this generally possible? Bara is under the Male on Male Sex tag.
This happens with every tag, but the worst thing is that - the fact that there are a lot of people who for some incredible reasons remove the Sexual Content tag from VNs. Do you know that this removes it from the Sexual Content search at all? It turns out all year on the site that I was missing a bunch of VNs because I had defaulted for a long time - Tags to include: Sexual Content .
A year ago, I understood something at a subconscious level that something is not working properly.
And the problem is that those tags that turn off (Have 0 or negative weight), the tags below them are no longer valid, it’s somehow wrong.Last modified on 2019-08-19 at 11:43
|#2 by yorhel|
2019-09-24 at 13:23
|Alright, to summarize: The problem is that parent tags are downvoted while the child tags are perfectly valid. This can be done for two reasons:|
1. The child tag does not imply the parent tag, and as such the parent tag is invalid.
2. The child tag does imply the parent tag, but displaying the parent tag on the VN page is just noise because the child tags convey it just fine.
(1) should not happen and indicates a problem with the tag hierarchy - these need to be fixed at that level. (2) is usually done after a more specific tag has been added to clean up the VN page - according to the guidelines the parent tags should not have any votes at all when there a specific tag applies, so this downvoting is understandable, but this has the unintended consequence of removing the VN from the search,
I can fix the search algorithm to ignore downvotes on parent tags, but we have to make sure that all instances of (1) are fixed. I made a list of all downvoted parent tags with at least one upvoted child tag* to help with identifying such cases.
From a quick glance I found at least one: Homeless Joshi ***Gakusei is marked as Comedy because of Title Parody. I'd say that's a good example of title parody not implying that comedy is an important element of the game. Any more that stand out?
(* the query was too slow for d18 and I was too lazy to optimize it... Also it's possible that there are some false positives in the list)
|#3 by skorpiondeath|
2019-09-24 at 18:18
|I agree yorhel on point 1 that's a design issue. |
About point 2 I just wanna say that downvoting a parent tag it's wrong.
Netorare Type B is also Netorare why would you downvote Netorare since even if less specific is something the VN contains as content? Because downvote means something is wrongly applied.... and even if red the tag is there for people to see...
It would be better to hide from the interface in some way, but that's just my opinion.Last modified on 2019-09-24 at 18:19
|#4 by rampaa|
2019-09-24 at 21:14
displaying the parent tag on the VN page is just noiseThat is not strictly correct. If child tags of a tag, as a whole, do not cover every situation that parent tag covers -if they do, that parent tag should be not-taggable to begin with- then using the parent tag along with its child tags might have its uses. It would let us know that a VN has some content that does not correspond to any child tags of that tag but still falls under the parent tag itself.
|#5 by skorpiondeath|
2019-10-05 at 12:20
|@Yorhel: Following my reasoning t12970.12 (OOT there :P)|
(warning another one of my disconnected boring posts)
rampaa is right displaying a parent tag is not noise when his children do not cover the whole situation. How can you say programmatically that children tags cover the whole situation? Simply you cannot. Only a person can.
Then why not flag in the DB those 100% covered cases?
If you got parent tag "Seasons" and children "Summer", "Autumn", "Spring", "Winter" than we flag "Season" as being "Complete". Then in case of a child tag being used you can safely hide "Season".Last modified on 2019-10-05 at 12:22
|#6 by yorhel|
2019-10-05 at 12:31
|Yup, I see now that there may be good reasons to upvote parent tags in some cases. But those upvotes aren't really a problem* and my proposed solution wouldn't affect that case.|
What *is* a problem, and what this thread is about, is *downvoted* parent tags. I'm still inclined to change the algorithm to simply ignore downvotes on parent tags when there is an upvoted child tag.
(* unless parent-only search is implemented and the parent is being upvoted for the wrong reasons, see t12970.11, but that's a different issue)
|#7 by kiru|
2019-10-05 at 12:47
|When all child-tags of a parent are there, there shouldn't be any childtags in the first place. I'm pretty sure that should apply for most things, as there's no need to define something "closer" if everything applies in the first case.|
Of course that's rather specific, as often not all child tags can even apply at the same time. But if "spring, summer, autumn and winter" all apply, there's no need for them. That's "seasons".
|#8 by skorpiondeath|
2019-10-05 at 16:11
What *is* a problem, and what this thread is about, is *downvoted* parent tags (...) I'm still inclined to change the algorithm to simply ignore downvotes on parent tags when there is an upvoted child tag.What I was trying to say is that you should ignore downvotes on parent tags when there is an upvoted child tag beacause those downvotes are users mistakes.
Then I was trying to add the possibility to hide parent tags in the list when there are cases where the children cover all parent cases. I used the seasons example but was a bad idea. But lets assume we know for sure only 3 kinds of Netorare exist (type A, type B, and type C). If we pick up a VN with all 4 tags applied to it, both parent and children (Netorare, Type A, Type B and Type C) then you could hide Netorare (even though the more I write the less makes sense to take all this effort to just hide parent).
|#9 by yorhel|
2019-10-07 at 10:16
|Alright, I've updated the algorithm now. Downvoted tags are, for the purposes of searching, exactly equivalent to tags with no votes at all, so downvoted parent tags just inherit their score from the child tags.|
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