Cups for All Ages

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#1 by yorhel
2019-11-02 at 10:38
I just added the two most important fields ever to character entries: Age and cup size, as discussed in t7405. How we have survived so long without those fields is a mystery we've yet to solve.

Both the cup size and age fields should, as with all other measurements-like information, come from official sources. Don't start guessing!

The AA-D cup size traits have been automatically converted* to the new field, as have some descriptions that could be parsed (thanks to skorpiondeath for helping out with that). The E+ Cup traits still remain for characters that don't have a cup size filled yet; I'm in favour of creating "appearant breast size" traits that is based on the VNs art rather than officially provided sources, but we still need to figure out the exact definitions. That conversion can be expected to take a while.

(* The conversion is still in progress and will take a few more minutes. Patience, my dear. EDIT: All done.)Last modified on 2019-11-02 at 10:48
#2 by rampaa
2019-11-02 at 11:57
I can't filter characters by their age, boohoo!
#3 by yorhel
2019-11-02 at 11:58
VNDB against age discrimination!
#4 by rampaa
2019-11-02 at 12:05
Also, about AA cup. I believe people did tag flat-chested girls with AA cup, even if there was no official source for it. The trait's description itself allowed such guesses. So I believe, as of now, we have some not-so-officially-confirmed AA cupped girls marked as AA cup. Was this intentional?
#5 by marantana
2019-11-02 at 12:06
Apparent breast size *is* a nice idea, but there should be a good guideline. E.g., how to deal with the 'magical' breast enlargement quite common in event CGs compared to sprite art.
#6 by yorhel
2019-11-02 at 12:08
as of now, we have some not-so-officially-confirmed AA cupped girls marked as AA cup. Was this intentional?
Hmm no. tbh I don't really mind that one to allow unofficial guesses, as we did with the trait, but that's open for discussion.
#7 by mrkew
2019-11-02 at 12:09
What about implied age based on the school year? Or even more so, heavily implied age which is done by showing a number next to the heroine and saying it's her "seat number" in class.

#9 It's not rare in lolige to express the age in a roundabout way. With the seat number example, I had link in mind.Last modified on 2019-11-02 at 12:22
#8 by aristippe
2019-11-02 at 12:10
Apparent breast size would lead to some edition fights imo, especially as people mistake Japanese scale as the US one.
Related to that, what kind of scale should be used? Japanese, US, Europe?
Depending on the developer's nationality we can have a wide variety of cups not being the same while having the same letters.
link
#9 by rampaa
2019-11-02 at 12:16
#6: I personally think cup size field should come from official sources and the apparent breast size should be marked with new "apparent breast size" traits.

#7: Age based on the school year sounds fair. "Seat number" sounds odd so I'd say it's stretching it. But maybe I find it odd because I've not encountered such a thing before.

#8: Apparent breast size will be something like "very flat, small, medium, large, gigantic". Have a look at t7405.Last modified on 2019-11-02 at 12:18
#10 by skorpiondeath
2019-11-02 at 12:43
So I believe, as of now, we have some not-so-officially-confirmed AA cupped girls marked as AA cup. Was this intentional?
They should be removed in my opinion. And replaced with "very flat" when we have the trait. Otherwise we already start a guess the field challenge which is not what we want. Instead is better to tag every producer confirmed "AA" cup character with "very flat".
So if users trust producers they search for cup field,otherwise they can search for "appearant breast size" trait.

"appearant breast size" traits that is based on the VNs art rather than officially provided sources
I agree on this but only if:
1) We need a chart like we have for hair colors (something like this link). Some edits war are still possible for character in the boundaries but we need something to look up to to decide what to do then.
2) Cup size will not be taken in consideration so Japanese scale or US scale doesn't matter. Check t7405 for Momoi Madoka infamous example of why cup size are not always reliable, not even in the same Japanese scale.
3) Apparent breast size should be guessed from character sprites where possible, or character in a standing position. There are some close up camera CG or some CG where the angle of the perspective enphasize a character body part aspect, so breast (or ass for Big Ass trait) seems just bigger than they normally are.Last modified on 2019-11-02 at 12:46
#11 by psychopatate
2019-11-02 at 12:53
I like the idea to compare the character's head for the "appearant breast size"
#12 by beliar
2019-11-02 at 13:08
Related to that, what kind of scale should be used? Japanese, US, Europe?
We have discussed that already and simply decided to apply the official source, ignoring the inconsistencies between the different scales. See thread t7405 starting with post 39 and ending with 46.
#13 by yorhel
2019-11-02 at 14:25
They should be removed in my opinion. And replaced with "very flat" when we have the trait.
Actually, yeah, if we're going to make a distinction between official and guessed cups, it wouldn't make much sense to put guesses into the official field...

I've removed Multi's conversion of the AA trait and reinstated AA Cup.

What about implied age based on the school year? Or even more so, heavily implied age which is done by showing a number next to the heroine and saying it's her "seat number" in class.
School year implies an age range though, so I'd say no. Other implied ages may be more precise but I'd still say no. If it's not officially her age, it's not officially her age. :P

EDIT: I've also made the Breast Size tree non-applicable until we sort out the apparent breast size stuff.
EDIT#2: Nevermind I didn't.Last modified on 2019-11-02 at 14:53
#14 by rampaa
2019-11-02 at 14:31
If it's not officially her age, it's not officially her age. :P
But how many companies give away their characters' ages? Wouldn't that render the field a little bit useless? I think if something is implied or can be deduced then it should be good enough. (Or we can have an implied age field/traits!)
#15 by skorpiondeath
2019-11-02 at 14:38
(Or we can have an implied age field/traits!)
I'd rather have traits under Middle School Student and High School Student one for each year and then you search for them.
Also being in one class doesn't exclude you failed one year and are older. Also some genius student can attend higher grades skipping school class.... Age cannot be determined that way.Last modified on 2019-11-02 at 14:39
#16 by rampaa
2019-11-02 at 14:44
I'm pretty sure if a character is a genius or something, the story would let us know. But I digress. New child traits under Students by Grade's subtraits is a pretty neat solution.Last modified on 2019-11-02 at 14:45
#17 by skorpiondeath
2019-11-02 at 15:22
@Yorhel: there are other 65 occurences that can be fixed, I added a third query link
#18 by yorhel
2019-11-02 at 15:35
@skorpiondeath: Done.
#19 by delusionparadox
2019-11-02 at 21:38
This can cause some issues with spoilers. There are times when a character is much older or younger than their appearance leads the reader to believe, which plays an important role later on in the story.

Even if we were to include an option to hide the age of the character unless users clicked on "Show minor spoilers" or "Spoiler me!", if every character has an age except that one, it smells fishy.

Example: School setting where every main character in that school is 16-18 years old, and then another main character either doesn't have an age, or it says they're much younger because they were the result of a genetic experiment or much older because they're infiltrating or suffer memory loss.

And of course there is the argument of "you shouldn't be checking character pages if you haven't finished", but the reason we can hide traits is precisely to prevent people from getting spoiled if they check.

I have two suggestions:
1) The age field only lists physical ages. That would prevent all cases where a user could get spoiled, but it wouldn't be entirely accurate database-wise.
2) You can insert two ages. That way you could list the physical age, and if their real age is different but a plot twist, you could hide the real age.

I'm obviously more in favor of the second way of handling this situation. If the physical age is the same as the real age, there's no need to fill the latter field. But if the real age is different, it can be hidden if it's a plot twist.
It's important that the real age isn't filled if the physical age is the same, though, as then it would be obvious when a real age is a plot twist by the fact that it's hidden.

It isn't the best way of dealing with spoilers, since for example you can still have 4/5 main characters in a school setting whose physical age corresponds their real age, but the 5th character's real age is a plot twist and their physical age wasn't provided by the developer or the story. But this is a very rare scenario, and at least prevents these fields from spoiling the reader in the vast majority of cases.Last modified on 2019-11-02 at 21:51
#20 by skorpiondeath
2019-11-02 at 21:44
@delusionparadox: I think you should put the fake age in the field...if later is discovered to be older you can put a spoiler in the description.

The thing you describe happens with Gender too. There are VN where there are Male trap characters usually presented as female at the beginning of the story. If it's an important spoiler to discover that they are male those characters get inserted in the DB as Female, not as Male. Even if not stricly correct it helps avoid the spoiler.

Another option would be put primary instance of the character with the fake information that don't spoil the story, than attach a secondary spoiler instance with the correct spoilery information.Last modified on 2019-11-02 at 21:48
#21 by delusionparadox
2019-11-02 at 21:50
@skorpiondeath I was editing the message with a couple of possibilities in that regard, so I saw yours a bit too late. I wrote basically the same thing though, and yes, that would be the best way of going about it.

To clarify though, I don't think we should have fields called "physical age" and "real age" since that would draw too much attention to the fact that, if one character's physical age is missing, it could be because their real age is a spoiler and their physical age wasn't provided.

Rather, I suggest two ages can be listed under the field "Age", and either one hided. Or, as you said, merely listing their real age in the description would be fine.

Although as a result of pondering this topic, I've realized that, regardless of whether the "Age" field is used for spoiler ages, we should be able to insert multiple ages, as some visual novels have characters growing up through one or multiple entries (as long as they aren't a spoiler, obviously). Or if VNDB's admins prefer, the same field could be used for multiple ages in visual novels where characters grow up, just adding commas inbetween.Last modified on 2019-11-02 at 21:59
#22 by beliar
2019-11-02 at 22:01
Or you know, considering our lord and master is currently tinkering with the database, he could create spoiler settings for names, ages and genders.
It could be set so that at "no spoilers" setting the character information would show incorrect but non-spoilery information, while at "show spoilers" the character entry would change to show the correct one.

I'm not really for creating additional instances just to hide, for example, age, as such additional instances can result in confusion and add no real valuable information beyond one additional data point.

Currently I prefer No.1, as mentioned by #19, with the correct info possibly mentioned in the description under the spoiler tags, but solving it at the root and creating dedicated spoiler settings for the aforementioned fields would be the best solution going forward.
#23 by warfoki
2019-11-02 at 23:40
There are more than enough useless instances already, we really should have a general set of rules / guidelines on when instances are necessary and when they absolutely aren't.
#24 by skorpiondeath
2019-11-03 at 00:17
There are more than enough useless instances already
Ok then no instances :P

Or you know, considering our lord and master is currently tinkering with the database, he could create spoiler settings for names, ages and genders.
That could be a good option if yorhel feels like tinker some more!

I'm in favour of creating "appearant breast size" traits that is based on the VNs art rather than officially provided sources, but we still need to figure out the exact definitions. That conversion can be expected to take a while.
"Appearant breast size" is gonna be a bloody subject...and also will end in something more or less subjective. I will glady start from warfoki proposal t7405.59 which is similar to an old post proposal t7405.22 (if we want to make distinction between Huge and Gigantic)
#25 by yorhel
2019-11-03 at 07:37
There are more than enough useless instances already
And at the same time there are not enough instances in cases where people should be using them.

That said,
spoiler settings for names, ages and genders.
I've no objection to simple solutions that can reduce the number of instances we need, but... hiding the gender behind a spoiler is itself also a spoiler, so we'd need an "gender the game wants you to believe" and "actual gender revealed later in the game". Not sure I'm a fan of such constructions - instances were designed to handle cases like that. Also, spoilered names? Aliases, I suppose. Hmm, that's going to be less trivial. :/

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