Downvote -2 -1 ?

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#1 by weter
2020-02-03 at 00:09
Am I doing something wrong or where did downvote -2, -1 go to?Last modified on 2020-02-03 at 00:09
#2 by rampaa
2020-02-03 at 00:36
#3 by weter
2020-02-03 at 03:08
Why is this "make no sense"? For example, if someone made a mistake and put a 3.0 on some tag, but the tag has an actual value of ~1.0, if I set -1 then it will settle at +3+(-1) / 2 = 1, and the fact that there is only a -3 tag, I’ll just delete this tag: +3 + (- 3) / 2 = 0 (it just won’t be shown in the search). This is only 1 example, so there are many controversial issues when it is worth putting -1, -2 instead of -3. Please return -2 and -1
#4 by eacil
2020-02-03 at 03:23
If you start using -1 and -2 to restore a balance, you only need more votes or someone fixing his own mistake for the -1/-2 to screw the new balance.
#5 by weter
2020-02-03 at 04:02
Well, I read unpopular VNs and VNs in Japanese, so there are too few users who put tags, mostly 1-2 votes per tag/ 1-2 users per vn, even VNs which are already 5-7+ years on VNDB. In almost every VN you can find inaccuracies in at least 1 tag.

For example, someone put the Handcuffed Sex 3.0 tag and it hangs there for several years only 1 vote, but after 100% completion I can say that there are only 1-2 such scenes that do not even affect the plot in any way from 15-20 scenes, put -3 removes the tag completely from the search and it’s not right, putting +1 well then it will be 2.0 average and anyway it will not be correct. Therefore, I believe that it is worth returning -2, -1
#6 by ramaladni
2020-02-03 at 10:27
But if you were try to restore the balance with your votes, your votes themselves would technically not be correct. I admit it's useful, though.Last modified on 2020-02-03 at 14:09
#7 by weter
2020-02-03 at 13:17
Well, I rarely do this, but it is still extremely necessary sometimes so as not to confuse other users
#8 by kiru
2020-02-03 at 15:37
^You are still supposed to say what YOU think about a given tag. Not "balance out" the score. That is an automatic process.
People sometimes have different opinions. It's kinda like you'd vote for a VN in a way to balance out existing votes, instead of what you think about it yourself.

It's not wrong to say that a VN with only 1 person tagging it, and more being unlikely, would be better off to just get locked down, if the one who tagged it actually knows what they are doing. But realistically, you can't control that. Did they really read the VN? Also everything? And then there's plenty of tags where personal opinion matters as well.Last modified on 2020-02-03 at 15:38
#9 by tyr
2020-02-03 at 16:11
I agree with weter here and I think that everyone who wasn't using the -2 and -1 downvotes was misusing the tag system lol.

There are good reasons to downvote a tag with a -2 or -1. The existence of the tag system itself is based on the assumption that tags are subjective and their value is weighted and that is also true for your personal disagreement with a tag. Sometimes you think a tag shouldn't be added and other people might think differently. And the truth is not a simple "does it apply or not"?

However, I disagree with voting to balance out a current score. Just be consistent with your own rules. Do not make your votes dependant on others. When everyone who votes has internal concistency, the final result will be a good average. (0.0-0.9 tags deserve to exist)

I used the -3/-2/-1 downvotes like this:
-3: this tag does not apply to this game
-2: this tag does not apply to this game but it's technically not wrong
-1: this tag might apply to this game, but its importance is so low that it gives the user the wrong impression

I looked through my own votes to find examples to illustrate these use-cases:

I voted -2 for the "pregnancy bad end" tag for Maro no Kanja wa Gatenkei 3 Kanketsuhen. There is a bad end and it also ends in pregnancy. However, the pregnancy part of this ending that goes on for 4000 lines is only the literal last line of the game "and because of this she got pregnant". No CG, no aftermath, just a single line that isn't even part of the hentai or the story and has no importance whatsoever. You see, it's not technically wrong that this is a bad end and it ends in pregnancy. But adding the tag to the game is borderline untrue if you consider what the existence of a tag implies. Proof of this is literally this thread: t7919

I voted -1 for the "masturbation" tag in the same game. There is masturbation in the game, but only once and it's not a hentai scene. It's a slice of life scene that is more part of the protagonist's characterization. Masturbation is not the focus of this scene, it's about him thinking about life and stuff. If you didn't read carefully, you probably wouldn't even notice that he is masturbating during his inner monologue. So there is some kind of importance to the existence of masturbation in this game (characterization of the protagonist), but it's not what you expect and even having the tag as a 1.0 would give the user the wrong impression.Last modified on 2020-02-03 at 16:28
#10 by ramaladni
2020-02-03 at 16:31
Putting aside the issue of voting to balance out the total score, I agree with Tyr here. That was exactly how I was voting and think negative votes have their place. For example, to put it more simply: disagree strongly (-3), disagree somewhat (-2), disagree a bit (-1).

I don't see how this "makes no sense." Maybe it doesn't to people who hardly have a hundred/few hundred votes on tags?Last modified on 2020-02-03 at 16:31
#11 by weter
2020-02-03 at 17:10
That's exactly what I meant what tyr and ramaladni said
#12 by barfboy
2020-02-03 at 18:52
I'm really going to have to go with eacil on this. Using votes to 'balance out' incorrect votes just makes things more wrong and can cause problems later. I find it best to give a VN tag a score you feel it deserves. If it requires clarification that's what the discussion board is for. You can also appeal to the moderation team to override a score that's obviously bad. I had no idea people were doing this and I can see it breaking down over time. Especially if users don't plan on babysitting their scores as the years progress.
#13 by fuukanou
2020-02-03 at 19:19
I also support the idea that there needs to be a way to pull down misleading but technically correct tags. Like pedantically it should be there but it gives the wrong impression so it'd be better if it wasn't so prominent.Last modified on 2020-02-03 at 19:28
#14 by beliar
2020-02-03 at 19:54
I'm also with Yorhel and Eacil here. I have never used -1/-2 votes before and have considered them completely obsolete for a long time, but have never raised an issue about it.
I'm against the correctional voting and specifically against voting as described by Tyr.

How can a tag be "slightly" incorrect. It's like a slightly pregnant girl. It either applies or it doesn't. Taking Tyr's example of a "bad end and it also ends in pregnancy" into account, it would probably have a +1 strength by my reasoning. So, if it's not "technically wrong", it cannot be rated as a negative. Rating it as -2 seems to me like Tyr is not using the rating system correctly.

You should rate what you think applies and not try to adjust the rating. The only reason the people complain, is because they got used to the old system and have a trouble of converting too the new one, but like someone said, "If change doesn’t hurt a little, it’s not change".
#15 by tyr
2020-02-03 at 21:00
If my example is a +1 for you, then all your +1 votes must be useless because they don't add relevant information and are only muddying the tag pool.
Please only vote +3 from now on. After all, tags are a binary issue, aren't they? As you said, how could something be "slightly" correct?

Also, I did not "adjust" the rating. Nice strawman, you have there.
I explained in my comment that I rate a tag by itself, independent from other ratings. I devoted an entire paragraph on this matter to be as clear as possible.
#16 by weter
2020-02-03 at 23:12
Sometimes users are not sure whether this tag makes sense or not, and therefore they put -2, -1 that is, they think that this tag does not need to be set, but they are 100% not sure. Now users will put everywhere -3, instead of the dissenting -2, -1, and in order to pull the tag from the minuses, people will simply put +3 and ruin tags, well, great. Not everyone shares or listens or carefully reads the rules or discussions for one reason or another, most will tag as they like. And how will we say in these situations who is right and who is to blame?

In addition, setting traits for characters is also a very big pain. Why is there no system -3 +3? Some people add, others remove tags and this is an ongoing process for many years, who is right and who is to blame?Last modified on 2020-02-03 at 23:21
#17 by barfboy
2020-02-04 at 04:16
I don't understand the argument. Let's take the tag Pregnancy
Junketsu★Megami-sama! "Tanezuke Shite Kudasai, Danna-sama!"
is far different from
Pure Marriage ~Akai Ito Monogatari - Sakura Hen~

It's not a binary issue. Junketsu Magami-sama is heavily focused on pregnancy. You are either impregnating a goddess or having sex with her while pregnant and once she delivers you impregnate them again. Pregnancy is the entire focus of the game. While Akai Ito Monogatari, Sakura announces her pregnancy to the MC in the final scene. It is barely noticable. While beliar is right, you cannot have a slightly incorrect tag, a girl is either pregnant at some time in the game or not, a game is either highly focused on the subject or it comes up only once. Positive scores from 1-3 make sense, negatives do not.

I think I have used the -1 and -2 as weter suggests but that's lack of information on my part. The tagging system is not to blame.


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