The future of NSFW
|#26 by naiohoras|
2020-02-15 at 12:11
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First, rename NSFW with Sexual Content, Suggestive Content or Adult Content. "Flagged as showing sexual content". "Shows sexual content".I think about the naming, if we are about to apply the NSFW levels, it should be "safe, questionable, unsafe" just like Konachan is. the questionable should reduce the amount edit wars. users should be allowed to choose the default level they want to see when they logged in.
I don't get why you should be sad in the first place... you found the site and you are here. Or maybe I don't see why it's one of your priority in going mainstream.pretty simple one actually. because it's a DB. one of the function of VNDB is to give more information about VNs and promote it to peoples. so it will kill the purpose if people new to Visual Novel are unable to find the site (a place where information about VN gathered) just because it's blocked on safe platforms.
EDIT: woah I was writing this before @25 posted. I don't wanna make two replies in a row I'm gonna edit this.
I really hate how I can't link friends to anidb when discussing hentai. Viewing content should never require creating an account, IMO. The cookie option is better, but... we already hide NSFW by default and it hasn't helped us much.we don't have too many choices here. either make VNDB registered user only NSFW, or make a safe-proxy for VNDB if we want to make it public. as you said that hiding NSFW isn't helping much.Last modified on 2020-02-15 at 12:32
|#27 by skorpiondeath|
2020-02-15 at 12:41
|< report >First I never said the problem is VNDB. |
not the porn site's responsibility to warn users that it has.... porn. it's not vndb's responsibility to warn users that it has loli contentSecond, you are looking it from the wrong perspective, it's on the site interest to tell you (customer or viewer) that it's filled with sexual content and even porn sites do that, and thus you agree upon entering by clicking "yes I'm 18". A safe version of a porn site has 0 meaning to exist but this is not the case for VNDB since some information could be (even if minimal) still beneficial. So applying some censorship rules is not made in the people interest, since they could just stay away from the site, but they are in fact the complete opposite a way to reach an higher audience and are in the creator interest.
Let say for a moment that as someone stated:
This doesn't benefit the regular user. If someone just wants to not see the NSFW pictures, they can disable them on their profile. So what's the real purpose? Getting more traffic? More clicks? More patreon donations? Seems like a waste of resources to me.Why on earth should every choice be made to benifit a regular user? Why is so wrong to try to reach an higher audience and possibily more donations? I find this kind of egocentrical view of the world being the most millenials of all.
At this point why not go to work and leave the paycheck to your bosses.Last modified on 2020-02-15 at 12:51
|#28 by forever-here|
2020-02-15 at 13:02
|< report >while I'd like to argue further #27, it's better to back down since yorhel said it best|
Yeah, we totally need to get rid of this term...
the question then becomes, umm, what's the issue again?
|#29 by skorpiondeath|
2020-02-15 at 13:22
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the question then becomes, umm, what's the issue again?Us trying to explain to you a simple internet slang term, which obviously you uderstand but probably being bored just force through the lawyer (everything's subjective) route.
|#30 by warfoki|
2020-02-15 at 14:04
|< report >I think there's value in making a completely "safe" mirror site. This isn't about pandering to SJW snowflake purist types, as some people alluded here. I have as little patience for them as the next guy, however the abundance of porn, and content tags like Bestiality and Lolicon got VNDB on a whole lot of blocklists, which restricts the access of information to a lot of people. If it's just the public wifi on campus, sure, you can just get your own net access, but if it got blocked in an entire country because of these, then that's not so easy. And besides nobody wants to purge porn content from the current VNDB, that would be just silly.|
I don't think any type of community maintained NSFW flagging is going to be suitable for this purpose though. It's enough i f one single guy trolls the system to get the new domain on blocklists and as Yorhel pointed it out, get on such a list is much easier the getting off of it. The only way I see this work is if the "safe" site gets purged of all images and "problematic" tags and traits. I don't see this happening in any other fashion.
As for having a three prong system with "SFW", "suggestive" and "NSFW", I don't see the point. edit wars would happen anyway, if anything they would happen more because we'd have 2 possible borderlines in between highly subjective definitions instead of one. It doesn't solve the problem, it complicates it.
What I'd suggest is a more accurate list of criteria. Eacil's idea in #18 is a good start.Last modified on 2020-02-15 at 14:05
|#31 by forever-here|
2020-02-15 at 14:19
|< report >honestly I don't see anything wrong with the current system. If I'm uncomfortable visiting this site because of where I am, then I should be mindful of my browsing. it's not something vndb should be responsible for. each visitor will have endless context behind them which can literally mean anything really.|
no system is perfect is just another way of passively admitting that any change will mean jack shit.
|#32 by naiohoras|
2020-02-15 at 15:04
|< report >@30|
As for having a three prong system with "SFW", "suggestive" and "NSFW", I don't see the point. edit wars would happen anyway, if anything they would happen more because we'd have 2 possible borderlines in between highly subjective definitions instead of one. It doesn't solve the problem, it complicates it.yeah I have considered the two borderlines, but I don't think it would complicate it further, actually, it would be easier. where? on the guidelines. writing the guidelines would be a lot easier since it would remove most of the vagueness we currently have.
let us throw the draft here:
- no nudity
- no implicit sexual organs
- bro! look at this kawaee gal!
- cameltoes, nipple through clothes, implicit sexual organs
- nudity with censors (like hair over nipples an so on)
- blood (I'm not sure about this one and should be discussed over)
- explicitly sexual activity
- nudity where you can see sexual organs
- gore (I'm not sure about this one and should be discussed over)
those above are just examples and can be further refined.
I don't think any type of community maintained NSFW flagging is going to be suitable for this purpose though. It's enough i f one single guy trolls the system to get the new domain on blocklistsyeah this one is really tricky. unless we can make VNDB system hide the VNs with problematic tags hidden within seconds from the safe site then it's gonna be problem.Last modified on 2020-02-15 at 15:06
|#33 by rampaa|
2020-02-15 at 16:26
|< report >I am having a hard time grasping what's the ultimate goal here.|
If it's to appease people who want to use VNDB for non-porn games only, they can easily exclude Sexual Content by default and they won't have to see those "filthy" porn games ever again (unless if the game has not been tagged correctly, in which case chances are no additional system is going to help them anyway).
If it's to appease people who want to have their cake and eat it too (ie. people who want to browse porn games while they are in public places without getting weird looks) they can easily disable all images for VNDB and be done with it.
If it's to appease Reddit(ors), no amount of new flag will help. 90% of the characters in VNs are either underage or underage looking. Reddit's ToS does not like that. Just have a look at this to see the level of their madness: link
If it's to appease governments.... Well, good luck with that. Anyone who thinks governments, ISPs etc. are rational beings is dead wrong. Where I live, Pastebin is blocked while VNDB isn't, go figure. Second off, if a government or a corporation etc. thinks that lolicon (or h-scenes that have high school girls in them) is basically CP, then chances are even if VNDB were to remove all images, it wouldn't be enough. Because, I assume, VNDB having links for "CP" wouldn't sit well with them either.Last modified on 2020-02-15 at 16:36
|#34 by ginseigou|
2020-02-15 at 17:38
|< report >How about making a separate database for games without Sexual content? Problem solved.|
Why would you even check 18+ game in a public place expecting a SFW content? It's like searching for some porn movie while expecting SFW images.Last modified on 2020-02-15 at 17:58
|#35 by eacil|
2020-02-15 at 18:11
|< report >I am too lazy but how many VN would that left to be seen in that utopian version of vndb, concretely?|
I guess Yorhel that you thought of E Hentai and the fjord? Does that mean that the non censored version will get rid of the NSFW flag or do you still think of the guy at work or in his geeky circle who want to browse porn? If you think like myself that they brought what would happen to them on themselves, it would greatly simplify the problem to just get rid of the NSFW flag.
The cookie option is better, but... we already hide NSFW by default and it hasn't helped us much. :POn the other hand, don't do something like doujinshi.org. It is hella annoying to re-set the cookie each time it disappear. Myfigurecollection does (did?) that too and it was even more annoying. I proposed that only for guests. Registered users should have a server side solution.
I see no point in having multiple level of unsafeness. What use for? This whole debate is already enough of a waste of time imo. I agree with Warfoki that you bet some users will just fight twice for the "right" level because, now, there are two borders instead of one.
Being more strict would be easier because we would work on the assumption that this flag is a big bag of anything and that it doesn't matter if it contains more stuff that it should. If something is ambiguous, poof, put it in the big bag. Being (too) inclusive shouldn't hurt the effect of the flag.
It's likely that we'd only get more edit wars if we made the current NSFW flag more strict, as people who don't want to see explicit content but have no problems at all with suggestive images are more likely to fight for getting less images flagged.You are talking about a clear case of abuse where someone is working against the rules.
@ginseigou: Did you even read the thread?Last modified on 2020-02-15 at 18:31
|#36 by forever-here|
2020-02-15 at 19:28
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I am having a hard time grasping what's the ultimate goal here.
I took the pleasure of actually reading what happened. so it's like this:
1. some random dude started an edit war over images that are (with yorhel's admittance) subjectively sfw or nsfw.
2. so some kind of objectivity was needed.
3. get rid of the term nsfw because of its subjective nature.
4. but what?
|#37 by eacil|
2020-02-15 at 20:05
|< report >I see that you have either comprehension troubles or tunnel vision. You are the only one who is stuck on this name change.|
The discussion is about:
-make the nsfw flag useful as it is not currently (it was designed for a situation which was explained to you in t13541.20). It can only be an improvement and I don't see why someone would be against that. Maybe against the flag itself, ok (if there wasn't point 2).
-unban vndb from networks who flag porn. It is debatable. It is what Rampaa is talking about, and you completely missed the point.
It's time to re-read the thread, especially #1.Last modified on 2020-02-15 at 22:42
|#38 by ginseigou|
2020-02-16 at 02:41
|< report >The current state of NSFW in one image link I guess new rules will mean characters in bikini or alike being unsafe.Last modified on 2020-02-16 at 02:44|
|#39 by zakashi|
2020-02-16 at 03:44
|< report >#38 hahahaha strangely this trope is true in real life, people become embarassed if seen in underwear but don't care being seen in swim trunks, even though they're pretty much the same thing, even i am like that and i can't explain why, probably a bug in my brain ¯\_(ツ)_/¯¯|
|#40 by warfoki|
2020-02-16 at 19:23
|< report >Social conditioning. Nudity isn't inherently embarrassing, just look at the few communities still stuck at a tribal level. It's embarrassing because your parents taught you to treat it as a taboo. Walking around in swimsuits is socially acceptable, walking around in underwear is not. And as such these values are taught to everyone growing up in modern society. That's all there is to it.|
|#41 by ginseigou|
2020-02-17 at 04:54
|< report >But how can you be objective on what's NSFW? One movie or game may have different age certificates in different countries varying from 12+ to 18+. In some countries, the demonstration of a woman's body in lingerie in a public place is completely fine. In other countries, a woman's body and even her face must be fully covered in clothes. The only best choice is to make every image NSFW in order to not to offend somebody by any chance.Last modified on 2020-02-17 at 05:09|
|#42 by zakashi|
2020-02-17 at 05:40
|< report >#41 It is not objective, which is fine, and don't count these middle east countries that cover women's faces, this just makes things unnecessarily complicated, i just mark whatever image i find sensual as NSFW, and if somebody disagrees and reverts my edition, meh, i won't complain about such a trivial thing.|
|#43 by forever-here|
2020-02-17 at 06:55
|< report >how about renaming nsfw to not safe for public setting?Last modified on 2020-02-17 at 06:55|
|#44 by yorhel|
2020-02-17 at 09:36
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Does that mean that the non censored version will get rid of the NSFW flagI don't intend to change the main VNDB in that regard. The quick show/hide toggles are pretty convenient, IMO.
If it's to appease people who want to have their cake and eat it tooThis is me. And disabling all images is a rather annoying fix when less than half of it is unsafe (very rough estimate). VNDB being blocked has hit me in various places as well.
Anyone who thinks governments, ISPs etc. are rational beings is dead wrong.Correct, but there is no such thing as perfect enforcement on their part, the trick is to simply not get on their radar in the first place. Hiding (almost) all of the content they don't like is a good way to achieve that.
...related to that:
I don't think any type of community maintained NSFW flagging is going to be suitable for this purpose though.I'd estimate that the accuracy of the current NSFW flagging - ignoring a few borderline cases - is pretty damn good. A few badly flagged images among the hundreds of thousands isn't likely going to hurt, especially if they'll get flagged soon afterwards.
So... one moderator in favor of a trinary flagging system and two moderators against. Quite a pickle. I'm still kinda inclined towards the trinary system, as it seems fairly common on imageboards already.
|#45 by forever-here|
2020-02-17 at 09:37
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Hiding (almost) all of the content they don't like is a good way to achieve that.
you may as well ask what China hates and they will answer they hate everything lewd and anime. Have you heard of the banning of MHA?
|#46 by rampaa|
2020-02-17 at 12:06
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And disabling all images is a rather annoying fix when less than half of it is unsafeIt might be an annoying fix but it's the only sure way of not getting weird looks, if that's what you aim. Can you honestly say something like link, link, link, link, link link, link, link wouldn't get anyone weird looks? If you concede those can get you weird looks in public, how do you propose drawing the line? It's darn hard to define such a line and more than likely where such a line should be drawn itself depends too greatly on where one lives.
|#47 by naiohoras|
2020-02-17 at 12:50
|< report >why do I feel like we're a council trying to pass a law in CK2...|
well, joke aside, @44 do what you think it's best, Yorhel. we've already voiced our arguments, pointing out the pros and cons, but in the end of the day, you're the one who make the decision and we will respect that whatever you come up with.
and as always... if you somehow fucked up an update, we're always here to point it out :P
and here my last argument for this thread:
[...] how do you propose drawing the line? It's darn hard to define such a line and more than likely where such a line should be drawn itself depends too greatly on where one lives.in imageboards, it's usually okay to mix up the line between "safe" and "suggestive", but the problem arise when you mix up the "safe" and "unsafe" line, which is why I suggested the trinary flagging system where "suggestive" can settle the problematic vagueness. and quoting Yorhel:
The NSFW system is intended so that you can "safely" browse VNDB in public scenarios where gaming/anime is generally tolerated, but porn and other suggestive material may notso it doesn't to be safe for all environments, at least it needs to be safe when you show it to your weeb-school-teachers, if that analogy even make any sense to you. those images are just between safe and suggestive and it's okay if you mix them up.
oh and hereLast modified on 2020-02-17 at 13:08
|#48 by skorpiondeath|
2020-02-17 at 13:04
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So... one moderator in favor of a trinary flagging system and two moderators against. Quite a pickle. I'm still kinda inclined towards the trinary system, as it seems fairly common on imageboards already.I'm in favor because I usually go trough the positive route and expect people on VNDB to try their best to achieve a common goal instead of fighting amonst themselves, expecially for trivial things like zakashi stated. We also had a good response from users to the infamous Apparent Breast Sizes which incorporated 6 levels of subjectivity.
That said every change can be painful at the beginning and usually when there are doubts not moving and stand still it's always the safer route. But as a programmer the safer route just brings your company to failure as the world obviously go forward with or without you and the more you think you are done with a project and think it reached perfection the more the world will 'hit you in various places' (quoting yorhel). So if we are trying to reach an higher functionality surely that comes with a little more effort and understanding from the community.
So if we established that our goal is to "simply not get on their (governments) radar in the first place", who cares if some mistakes are made or if some fight happens? And who cares if something is subjective or maybe it's not because deterministicly speaking your own will that makes you think something is subjective is just a subproduct of where you are born and raised and thus not even yours?
In my experience in 8 years of VNDB and many (too many!) hours spent tagging I just remember one or two fight ended in tragedy (one with a user that claimed he had the absolute knowlegde for tsurime/tareme eyes) all the others where usually solved by opening a thread and communicate despite the existence of self proclaimed god-users. The true power of VNDB lies in his community and how much they love this site and everything connected. So despite this community has most of the time being addressed as a toxic bunch of assholes I usually get along well with them so I personally think we can handle a three state flag (wrote all this shit just to express that).Last modified on 2020-02-17 at 13:34
|#49 by rampaa|
2020-02-17 at 13:36
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at least it needs to be safe when you show it to your weeb-school-teachers, if that analogy even make any sense to youIt doesn't. This is a vague criterion through and through. Just for the sake of it, would you mind rating the images I've posted at #46 with this criterion you've proposed?
Apparent Breast Sizes which incorporated 6 levels of subjectivityTo be quite frank, if we are going to say breast/head ratio is subjective, then we need a new word for the aforementioned "unsafe for purists" flag to do it any justice. Because honestly, their subjectivity level is not comparable in any way.Last modified on 2020-02-17 at 13:36
|#50 by warfoki|
2020-02-17 at 13:37
|< report >Meh, personally I still don't think that the additional new suggestive category is all that necessary, but it's not like I've never been wrong before, Apparent Breast Sizes is good example: I was quite against having 6 different categories initially, but it worked out pretty well.|
@Yorhel: Working pretty well is not enough, if the ultimate goal is to keep VNDB accessible in as many places as possible. If you just want VNDB to be off of like college campus blacklists, I really don't see a point of even bothering. If you want it off of governmental blacklists, then we both know that one single issue is enough to be back on that list. And that WILL happen if you entirely rely on a communally maintained NSFW flag system. It's only a matter of time.
@Rampaa: No idea where link is from, but hey, I got a new desktop wallpaper. :PLast modified on 2020-02-17 at 13:39