Regarding v13003.11

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#1 by zakamutt
2020-02-25 at 09:04
< report >it's not a discussion, it's a fair warning and added information
/shrugLast modified on 2020-02-25 at 10:00
#2 by Yorhel
2020-02-25 at 09:10
< report >I've deleted your other related edits, that information does not belong in the description.

If the description is actually bad (i.e. worse than nothing), you either remove it or fix it. If the description is okayish but could be improved, either improve it or leave it.
#3 by zakamutt
2020-02-25 at 09:23
< report >I don't think there should be MTL descriptions on vndb without a notice that they are MTL. Investigating each of the now possible thousands of such descriptions provided by the user in question for accuracy is a task I am (hopefully) understandably unwilling to perform. As such IMO the only workable solution is either a blanket removal (fine by me, but loses some utility since MTL is bad but not 100% incorrect), or a notice. I decided to do the latter as it was less destructive and IMO the best option.Last modified on 2020-02-25 at 09:36
#4 by ramaladni
2020-02-25 at 09:44
< report >I feel the need to weigh in on this issue. Kivando is a known MTL user and has created hundreds of synopsis 'translations' the same way. While he might have good intentions, he definitely focuses on quantity over quality.

It has happened several times that I or friends of mine play a game with a synopsis translated by kivando, and its content has nothing to do with what happens in the game. I believe machine translated synopsis should come with a warning at the very least. Or what, is this behavior to be endorsed?
#5 by Yorhel
2020-02-25 at 10:02
< report >If a description needs a warning (other than the usual "this is user contributed data, use at your own risk" disclaimer), it shouldn't be in the DB in the first place. I'm a terrible judge, but if there is widespread belief that Kivando's descriptions are bad then they should indeed just be blanket removed.
#6 by kivandopulus
2020-02-25 at 10:45
< report >@ramaladni
Those couple cases have been fixed with direct translation of official description later on. None of your friends ever cared to fix or translate themselves. Blank removal is all they or you can do.

@zakamutt
You're a very toxic person who destroyed fuwanovel community already. Please try not to bring trolling to vndb as well.

@yorhel
It's not an issue of bad descriptions. I've added several thousands of descriptions, and it's natural that couple of them might be a bit off, and I've fixed those few noticed. It's an issue that some resentful persons from fuwa want anything added by me to bear a huge "MTL" stamp even if it's based on actual gameplay or transformed with the use more than one source. This concrete Climax Luna ~Shimai Hen~ description is that bad, because developer did not care about description at all. Why should he care if it's a doujin nukige with anime heroines. I'm eager to discuss translation of official description from here, but people who vandalize pages and bring toxicity everywhere like zakamutt should just be banned
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#7 by zakamutt
2020-02-25 at 11:41
< report >>None of your friends ever cared to fix or translate themselves.
While true in the case of your descriptions, I have added/fixed several manual translations/descriptions based on reading for VN pages. I have also done minor fixes to others. These take a significant amount of time to do as I actually care about quality. Also, Steel actually would have had a description by you if I hadn't gotten to it first.

Anyway, the whole problem with MTL is that it's not deterministic - some descriptions are going to be wrong, and there's no way to tell which ones. "Actual gameplay" doesn't really help that much since you do that using the same method. I can actually pick one VN both I and you have actually played some of - Realize - and immediately find a minor error that you should have been able to pick out from reading.
link
>One morning during the class, Matsuura Ryou saw a strange object flying in the sky.
It's not _during_ class, it _while he's walking to_ class. This is the _first screen in the game_.
I realize that this is nitpicking, but it should also be obvious from even reading the VN and seeing the events, casting doubt on the care given to just about anything you've done.
Personally I prefer to actually finish the VN before writing a description if I'm reading it, and I finish slow, which is why I haven't rewritten the description for Realize yet. I'll consider doing so with what I've seen already, however.

The point here is, you are basically putting MTL up on descriptions then saying "well just check all my 500 descriptions for errors then". I don't think that's very nice. Definitely not all of them are wrong. Definitely some are.

Regarding the toxic troll thing - think what you wish; if you didn't essentially pass off MTL as the real thing, I wouldn't care about you.Last modified on 2020-02-25 at 12:18
#8 by kivandopulus
2020-02-25 at 12:23
< report >Wow, you're criticizing me for descriptions in Realize and Steel that have never been touched by me. I guess @loss would need to answer here unless he went inactive since 2011.

Basically what you're saying now is that only translations of official descriptions word-by-word like those several that you added are ok. If those were the rules here, everyone would follow them. You don't have time to read 500 descriptions, and I don't have time to write 500 word-by-word official descriptions translations. And no one does, that's why all the obscure games lie for years without even synopsis. The difference here is that for three years I'm working toward better vndb while you nitpick and vandalize.

>Regarding the toxic troll thing - think what you wish; if you didn't essentially pass off MTL as the real thing, I wouldn't care about you.
It's not what I think, It's what I read in your fuwa activity, every second comment is a slur or abuse like this "put this autistic rant on the vndb page imo it feels more fitting to that forum if you want a majires"
#9 by zakamutt
2020-02-25 at 12:42
< report >>Basically what you're saying now is that only translations of official descriptions word-by-word like those several that you added are ok.

No, I'm saying that an MTL playthrough is not enough to give a good description. You're also incorrect; I did this one freehand: Suki Tokimeki to Kiss

Realize I'll give you; I probably should have noticed the lack of a link to a review. Steel I know for a fact you would have done, as it was vn of the month in one of your posts and had no description prior to mine. Also, you only play like 1/13 of the VNs each month of the review, so I'm not sure why you're insisting that part is so important.
#10 by kivandopulus
2020-02-25 at 13:32
< report >Everyone here but you is basically saying the same thing - each case is individual. 99% of my descriptions are shortened versions of official ones taken from Getchu, Dlsite or Official sites. If something looks suspicious, it's usually enough to check that official description with your superior manual translator skills. Any constructive edit is welcome. I also dislike unedited raw MTL translation, that's why I never insert anything like that. But it's a useful tool for initial reference. There are cases when I neglect MTL entirely and translate step-by-step. Each case is individual, and I work on each description individually improving over time. But you don't want to treat each case individually, instead giving away fair warnings and putting labels on all the things massively. That's not a constructive approach.
#11 by zakamutt
2020-02-25 at 13:50
< report >It doesn't need to look suspicious to be wrong. In fact the fact that you edit the MTL mostly serves to hide the fact that is in fact MTL. MTL is just not accurate enough to be trusted. That. Is. My. Entire. Point.

Again, you're putting out these descriptions regularly in which you don't care enough about accuracy to actually either learn Japanese or stop making them, saying "just do the _work_ of fixing them in case my own laziness in not learning Japanese and instead trusting an algorithm fucked them up, tee hee". I don't think demanding people check your 10+ descriptions from each post (more than 40 a month judging by your ~4 post a month schedule) is reasonable.Last modified on 2020-02-25 at 13:57
#12 by kivandopulus
2020-02-25 at 14:27
< report >>the fact that you edit the MTL mostly serves to hide the fact that is in fact MTL
Where's the logic in here? I'm not sure you did not use MTL while writing description for Suki Tokimeki to Kiss. Even in case you say you did not, you may still be lying about it. What about thousands of other descriptions without sources out there? Put any official description into Google Translate, and you'll see that it differs big time from any my description. It's so easy to check that it's impossible to hide. The end result is to be judged, not the means.

>MTL is just not accurate enough to be trusted
I speak about MTL openly to show that since November 2016 there is an alternative thanks to Google Neural Machine Translation. Before that time I used exclusively word-by-word translation means. It has been constantly improving over the years, that's why all the mobile boom in instant translation apps happened.
Saying that some people are automatically inferior to others because of usage of MTL is one of the most chauvinistic things I ever heard. It's not right to use unedited raw Google Translate for written data, that goes without saying, and that's why raw psxdatacenter descriptions are plain bad.
#13 by zakamutt
2020-02-25 at 15:14
< report >I think I've made my case
#14 by ramaladni
2020-02-25 at 20:11
< report >@5

If a description needs a warning (other than the usual "this is user contributed data, use at your own risk" disclaimer), it shouldn't be in the DB in the first place. I'm a terrible judge, but if there is widespread belief that Kivando's descriptions are bad then they should indeed just be blanket removed.

Well, this might sound contradictory, but even if they are bad, I think outright deleting all of them would be too harsh. Then again, let's say that someone was creating edited MTL patches en masse, would they be allowed in the database? I think not.

@6
None of your friends ever cared to fix or translate themselves.

Not to sound rude, but by the time they fix one translation (because they actually play the games they'd add/fix a synopsis for) another 30 will pop out. I really wish you'd focus on quality contributions instead of quantity only. Why not add synopsis only for games that you play?

About "translations improving over time":

You've been using the word "insult" in your contributions for many years. After editing thousands of entries, didn't you think that something might be odd? The word you're looking for is "rape". Just pointing this one out as it sticks out for being comical.

Also, while I don't agree with zakamutt's methods, it sort of served its purpose in bringing attention to this issue.

If something looks suspicious, it's usually enough to check that official description with your superior manual translator skills.

Well, not everyone can do that. So perhaps there should be a disclaimer. Which loops us back to...

If a description needs a warning (other than the usual "this is user contributed data, use at your own risk" disclaimer), it shouldn't be in the DB in the first place.
#15 by kivandopulus
2020-02-26 at 04:19
< report >>Not to sound rude, but by the time they fix one translation
You do sound rude, because they never fix any translation. Reverting to blank is not fixing. I remember exactly two such cases of tyr reverting back to blank - that's 2 out of over 2000, it's less than 0.1% statistically, but in absolute numbers 2 might be memorable cases. I'm grateful for noting my mistakes, that's why I fix them.

>You've been using the word "insult"
I explained it several time times on other occasions. The use of this word is deliberate not to trigger unnecessary R18 attention

>it sort of served its purpose in bringing attention to this issue
If all it brings is bla-bla, and no one starts adding descriptions, then it does not help

>So perhaps there should be a disclaimer. Which loops us back to...
Wow, any addition is read as usual "this is user contributed data, use at your own risk" disclaimer. I'm sorry if you consider user added data as final truth or something

The guidelines to follow are very simple, but for some reason no one wants to add or fix anything, it's much interesting to beat around unexisting issue of "belief" of bad translation. It's not church here, let's work on concrete examples and not create beliefs.
If the description is actually bad (i.e. worse than nothing), you either remove it or fix it. If the description is okayish but could be improved, either improve it or leave it.

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