Flagging Images

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#1 by yorhel
2020-03-26 at 16:20
If - for some unimaginable reason - you happen to be locked at home with nothing to do. Bored, tired, lonely, not even in the mood for a visual novel? Then perhaps I have just the thing to help you. Or rather, I have something with which you can help me!

We've been working on a new image flagging system that allows for more granularity than just "SFW or NSFW" and which ought to also solve the problem of people violently disagreeing over whether or not an image is safe. The new system allows everyone to vote on random images in the database using a three-point scale in two dimensions:

Sexual content: Safe, Suggestive or Explicit.
Violence: Tame, Violent or Brutal.

These votes should eventually replace the NSFW flag, but for now we're stuck with a database of 220 thousand unflagged images. This is where we need your help: There's a new "Image flagging" link in your menu where you can start voting on images. Be sure to familiarize yourself with the guidelines first.

Known bug: The new system doesn't cure lonelyness. I think.

If you're interested in the motivation and some background for this update, check out t13541. As usual, this is the first incomplete version. Votes are not yet used for anything other than building up the initial database. There are no moderation tools at the moment, I'll be analyzing the data manually first to find out what kind of tools are the most appropriate for the task. Right now the image selection algorithm is heavily biased towards character images, this way we can use character entries as a pilot for the new image flagging system and (eventually) loosen the upload restrictions on character images. Visual novel images will follow later.

If you want to follow along, I keep a few stats as well.Last modified on 2020-03-26 at 16:20
#2 by naiohoras
2020-03-26 at 16:32
here it comes! I see we're going for the voting system after all. now all my bookmarks for "questionable" images are useless... oh well.

but then again, I think there should be an option to direct vote an image, just like tags. the idea of scrolling through random images is indeed fun and appealing, but I think the direct vote will also be a huge help in case when people come across images that need to be corrected outside of the random image flagging.

Edit: I think filter should be applied to image flagging... I mean, I just came across through an Yaoi sex scene and... dang.
Edit2: I think the image border size should be smaller. it's kinda tiring to scroll up and down when a big sized image appeared. (my screen resolution is 1360x766 and the screenshots appeared too large/need to scroll down)Last modified on 2020-03-26 at 17:14
#3 by NowItsAngeTime
2020-03-26 at 16:56
Hmmm interesting new feature.

I'll try this Image flagging link for a bit then.
#4 by saeryen
2020-03-26 at 18:11
I really want to be able to direct vote images too, since Ayakashi Koimeguri's stuff is all completely safe and tame and I wanna mark it as such (it's my favorite VN right now and I wanna make sure all info on it is up to date)
#5 by brunoais
2020-03-26 at 18:15
I really want to be able to direct vote images too.
Looking at an image and being able to express vote my opinion on how safe or unsafe I believe it is.
#6 by vdz
2020-03-26 at 18:22
Are you quite sure link should be considered Safe? If the aim is to have safe images be ""safely" [browsable] in public scenarios where gaming/anime is generally tolerated, but porn and other suggestive material may not" and not get a 'safe VNDB' blocked for hosting questionable content, I think this is incredibly risky. Swimsuits may be socially acceptable in the proper context, but I don't think looking at little girls in swimsuits - especially not with that composition, that camera angle and those poses, showing as much of their bodies as possible - is going to be accepted even at places that are totally into anime.

Also, the guidelines mention 'fully visible underwear' and post an 'underwear only' picture as example, but it remains ambiguous whether pantyshots, particularly slight/subtle ones, should be Safe or Questionable. For example, would link be Safe? I would lean towards Questionable, but the guidelines are ambiguous.Last modified on 2020-03-26 at 18:26
#7 by naiohoras
2020-03-26 at 18:30
#6 that's the function of voting. if you're unsure that the image is safe or questionable (since it's borderline) the majority will decide. the guidelines are just a tool to help you make your decision. we already discussed this long and detailed if you follow the thread t13541.Last modified on 2020-03-26 at 18:32
#8 by beliar
2020-03-26 at 19:10
For example, would link be Safe?
The same question was raised in a private discussion among mods. Eventually we decided to treat all underwear shots as "Suggestive".

Are you quite sure link should be considered Safe?
The idea was to treat the swimsuits that are not super skimpy as safe, but of course you can vote otherwise. As Naihoras has said, that is the beauty of voting, and the guidelines are not hard-set rules. If you feel it's a suggestive picture, you are welcome to vote otherwise.

@Saeryen: Can you tell me, why do you laud Ayakashi Koimeguri so much? What makes it your favourite VN? And is it really a free game or is it full of microtransactions, like the games from Pixelberry Studios.Last modified on 2020-03-26 at 19:15
#9 by rampaa
2020-03-26 at 19:33
I think filter should be applied to image flagging
Seconded. Image flagging system should respect our default filters.
#10 by some-guy
2020-03-26 at 19:34
#6 completely agree with your concerns. The functionality is a really fun idea, but looking through the guidelines I came to the conclusion that I shouldn't use it. My idea of the tags differs a lot from the guidelines, so I find it impossible to vote reasonably with those in mind without studying them for hours. At least the guidelines made sure I realize that :). If they really are just suggestions, I'd suggest (duh) to make this more clear. "Familarize yourself with the guidelines first" sounds like this is the way to vote to me, so I'd feel bad participating.
#11 by vdz
2020-03-26 at 19:44
Aren't the guidelines supposed to indicate what kind of things are supposed to be Safe/Questionable/Explicit? What's the point to having that example in the guidelines if users are expected to vote differently than what is suggested in the guidelines? Certainly you're not expecting (in the sense of wanting to, not in the sense of it inevitably happening anyways) people to ignore the guidelines and vote on the basis of purely personal interpretation?

@7
Actually, t13541.131 did not list any guidelines on swimwear, and the discussion that followed did not lead to any consensus. By the end beliar aptly states "it's impossible to fully agree on this issue". If the intention is to leave it up to users and not push one way or the other, why not leave it ambiguous in the guidelines rather than explicitly stating it should be Safe?
#12 by skorpiondeath
2020-03-26 at 19:57
@11: guidelines as the name suggest are there to guide you, otherwise we should just call them stone rules. And you will find perfectly safe images that can be suggestive, even a woman in stocking crossing legs could be highly erotic...so I guess that there is a limit to guidelines. If it was pure personal interpretation than there was no reason to put guidelines in the first place, you should follow the general idea that there's behind it.

@10: you don't have to follow your heart on every picture. I myself for example could just put "Safe" on every picture even scat or skullfucking becuase simply they do not affect me personally... but rules are made to "behave" so I usually try to choose following the guidelines and the examples given, but when something is left free of interpretation I usually go for the more strict option.
Someone could example complain that a picture is suggestive when he thinks that it's safe, but usually that person will have the option to set is filtering edge to suggestive and thus showing the aforementioned picture. While instead I find it much worse to have doubious suggestive pictures flagged as safe, because even with a safe filter edge users will still see the picture.

When the time comes my filtering edge will be explicit so actually I'm working for other people since I always want to see every picture.Last modified on 2020-03-26 at 20:02
#13 by yorhel
2020-03-26 at 20:21
direct vote an image
Still inclined to say no here. Mods can do it already, but to open this up for everyone makes the system very prone to abuse. It'd be trivial to create a few accounts and flag any image to whatever you want, and image votes are not visible enough to find such abuse quickly. It's not like the edit histories.

I think filter should be applied to image flagging.
I don't think it should. There's a reason I put a big fat warning before the voting UI, if you don't want to see certain content you'd be safer not flagging images.

the image border size should be smaller
Ah, yeah, I had a note to adjust the image canvas to the window size. I'll see if I can fix that tomorrow.

Are you quite sure link should be considered Safe?
Regardless of the "you can vote whatever" argument, I have to agree it's not the best example for the guidelines. I do believe that swimsuits can be safe, but that image does indeed have more suggestive things going on. Let's see if we can find a better example...

EDIT: As for where some of the guideline decisions came from: The image flagging system had been available to moderators for a few days and we've refined the guidelines a bit in private. They're still open for discussion though.Last modified on 2020-03-26 at 20:25
#14 by some-guy
2020-03-26 at 20:33
@13 considering how controversial that swimsuit image is, maybe it would actually be a great example to keep in and mention that both interpretations are perfectly valid?
#15 by rampaa
2020-03-26 at 20:38
if you don't want to see certain content you'd be safer not flagging images
Will refrain from flagging images from now on as you suggested but that is certainly an odd stance to take, considering respecting our default filters would have no downside. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
#16 by yorhel
2020-03-26 at 20:54
considering respecting our default filters would have no downside. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
It would bring down the server. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
To be fair, I haven't even tried yet. I did spend a few days just making sure the feature is fast enough as it is without any filters. But its performance is rather brittle, I'm not optimistic about being able to add filter support without significant costs.

And in any case, there's no guarantee you won't be seeing images you don't want to see anyway.Last modified on 2020-03-26 at 20:56
#17 by gvbn
2020-03-26 at 20:58
How obvious does the NSFW content have to be to count as NSFW? I flagged link as NSFW since there is semen between her legs link only for it to be reverted.
#18 by beliar
2020-03-26 at 21:02
It's definitely nsfw. It's even in the guidelines: "The presence of sexual fluids (most commonly semen) turns the pictures "explicit", even if they would otherwise be "safe" or "suggestive".
The one who reverted it probably didn't look closely enough.
#19 by skorpiondeath
2020-03-26 at 21:02
@17: I would say that semen always makes it explicit
EDIT: shit beliar always spoils the fun!Last modified on 2020-03-26 at 21:03
#20 by eacil
2020-03-26 at 21:36
I saw that picture countless times and I never spotted that detail... O_o
#21 by vdz
2020-03-26 at 21:58
Another non-covered case I ran into: Being restrained is not Violent per se, but what if the character is being restrained by something non-human, e.g. tentacle rape? I would assume that link counts as Violent despite no immediate harm being inflicted (well, other than the rape part of course); I'll be voting it as such but it would be nice to see this cleared up in the guidelines.

EDIT: Actually, looks like I can't vote on it anymore as I navigated away (clicked the image to get the URL) so it's voteless for now.Last modified on 2020-03-26 at 21:59
#22 by skorpiondeath
2020-03-26 at 22:08
@21: I can point you to d19#2.2, 3rd paragraph
Due to how difficult it is to judge consensuality through images alone, rape and other forms of non-consensual sexual activity should not be flagged as "violent" by themselves, unless other actions that would be considered "violent", even without the presence of sexual content, are portrayed in the image (e.g. rapist slapping his victim).
Since consensual tentacle rape exist maybe it's better specify that "Tentacle Rape" should be considered non violent like other kind of rapes by themselves.

EDIT: Image could be violent if tentacles makes bloody wounds for example.Last modified on 2020-03-26 at 22:10
#23 by beliar
2020-03-26 at 22:17
Unless the tentacles are slapping her butt to leave red welts, or stick her with needles, they are not supposed to be violent in and on themselves.
#24 by misterpinkie
2020-03-26 at 22:35
What about inherently censored images, like link or like, half the other characters in violated hero? Does that bump it down to suggestive, or stay explicit since it needed a censor in the first place?
#25 by skorpiondeath
2020-03-26 at 22:39
Does that bump it down to suggestive, or stay explicit since it needed a censor in the first place?
Yes it bumps it down to suggestive because image is censored otherwise it shouldn't have been there in the first place since character images should be SFW. When the system goes fully online my idea was to replace my uploaded censored images (that one being one of mines) with the fully naked uncensored version, because if I'm not mistaken it should be possible by then to upload sexually explicit uncensored characters.Last modified on 2020-03-26 at 22:41