The MangaGamer controversy

Posted in

#51 by paragonias
2020-05-08 at 19:01
#50
I don't think any company whether MG, Sekai, Jast or other will ever create multiple TLs to the same language for a game, with maybe some very rare exceptions like Higurashi. It's just too much cost for a very niche game genre. And to be honest, I don't see VNs ever becoming so big or mainstream they'll get multiple TLs on a common basis.

As for anime dubs vs subs, I rarely watch anime and when I do I just take the subs. I'm fortunate enough that here in Germany, dubs generally stick closer to the original script or TL and seldom contain references to pop culture, if at all. Well, not that I listen to them anyways.
#52 by butterflygrrl
2020-05-08 at 21:08
It has been done (see the multiple versions of Cherry Tree High School Comedy Club) but that's why I was mentioning the possibility of leaving games open to mods, so people who want to submit their own translations can.
#53 by warfoki
2020-05-08 at 21:38
I don't think multiple translations for a single title will ever become a normal thing. Animesubs are not really comparable here: making an animesub for a whole series is orders of magnitudes faster and easier than translating a whole VN.
#54 by forever-here
2020-05-08 at 22:17
so, you think they're hostile to you, and that's bad, so you want to be hostile to them, and that's good. Logic!

IF YOU GATEKEEP THEM OUT THEN YOU'RE JUST AS BAD AS THEM!!!

doesn't work. that's exactly the same reasoning """FANS""" said back then and that's how these SJW virus outsiders got in and infected the hobby/medium. the same reason why star wars is shite as F.
#55 by sf347
2020-05-08 at 22:41
This thread showcases why I cut the MG staff slack for trash talking the fans whatever their translation decisions are. The visual novel community is more toxic than raw sewage. They were no more smug and pompous than your average online community fan. Seems only one guy in Hero Hei's comment section and the twenty or so people who upvoted him were actual visual novel fans given that they couldn't blame them for this very reason.

I find all sides of this conflict unbearable including the so-called moderates who allegedly don't want politics and drama yet keep insulting and bickering with both of the other two.

Since you guys all want to play gatekeeper, can you point me to where all the decent, non-elitist fans who are actually civil and not merely faux civil hang out? Preferably with its own database but not geoblocked like EGS so that I can migrate completely. Then I will happily get the hell out of Dodge.
#56 by zakashi
2020-05-08 at 22:58
What the hell means "gatekeep" these people? Chaining them up ? :D
#57 by encrypted12345
2020-05-08 at 22:59
Not that I've been there, but I really doubt that EGS doesn't have non-elitist fans who are actually civil if you think that this website's userbase is bad. There are bad eggs like in any community, but I don't personally have beef with anyone here
#58 by being
2020-05-08 at 23:11
#55
find a group where it is possible to have discussions/disagreements and exchanging ideas without people literally chimping out. also make sure people have multiple interests and various knowledge outside of VN/Otaku stuff as that means they're more open-minded and thus more likely to be competent at discussions.

I have never, ever seen a wider community for anything be what you seem to want it to be. only places that may seem like that on the outside. Also most groups/cliques are more toxic than wider communities so it won't be easy, but I believe in you!
#59 by sf347
2020-05-08 at 23:22
Eh, I tried. Thanks for being civil with me guys. I realize my post in itself can come off as condescending but that is why toxic is such an appropriate description. You should see my older posts. I was even worse back then.

I don't like what the exposure to the community has done to me. I miss the passionate, enthusiastic me who could read visual novels for days on end that I was before I knew of the community. kazeno captured those feelings perfectly in link Now I just feel burned out and purposeless all the time.

#58 Yeah that might be best. I noticed the deeper into any hobby community I get the more fanatical people tend to become so maybe I just need to find more balanced people.
#60 by warfoki
2020-05-09 at 00:22
If you have a community about ANYTHING, as in literally anything whatsoever, once if reaches beyond small-time, local little community, it's going to have such people. It's unavoidable. You have to learn to tune them out and move on.
#61 by being
2020-05-09 at 00:36
#59
Yes. Visual novels are very casual, so ideally the hobby should be treated leisurely, and fandoms as well. I personally feel too detached from Visual novel folks to get offended over stuff easily. Although a decent amount has happened over the years, I feel absolutely nothing personal over any of it. Passion can really be a double-edged sword; if you consider community stuff as an extension of that passion, disappointment, frustration, and in worst case even anger awaits. I feel somewhat passionate about VNs, myself, but what I feel about VN "community"? It depends entirely on the place. VNDB is just someplace where you can write anything without being censored, which is great. If you want to get some thoughts out, good place. You can use 4chan for similar reasons although it is more of a trash heap. Reddit is pretty much worthless. Discords are occasionally useful but mostly worthless from what I've seen. But yeah, I hope you find more balanced people like I have. I have some friends that are into VNs all of which I got to know through other means like music, film, games, etc.
#62 by tunafishman
2020-05-09 at 00:49
This right here is why I never want to do any sort of VN translation, despite being fluent in Japanese. Getting flack for one badly translated line out of the hundreds of thousands in a typical VN would be so nerve wracking, and I don't think English speakers appreciate all of the difficulties involved in Japanese -> English translation.
#63 by encrypted12345
2020-05-09 at 01:41
@62 You can, but you have to more or less maintain a low profile. Though to be fair, if you can't get e-fame out of it, there's no personal reason to do fan translation unless you're doing it out of the goodness of your heart. I can at least understand being unwilling to work for nothing. While people are less critical of a fan translation than an official one, I won't claim that you won't get any criticism whatsoever.

IIRC, web/light novel and manga translation communities are overall more tolerant of tl errors, though that's partly because of all of the machine translators running around.
#64 by warfoki
2020-05-09 at 01:49
Yeah, the average web-novel translation quality is BAD. If you get anything that even remotely resembles fluent English, most readers will be very happy.
#65 by zakashi
2020-05-09 at 03:08
I think it is better having a bad translation than no translation whatsoever ;)
#66 by ecchihieronymus
2020-05-09 at 03:57
#65 I respectfully disagree. You can't accept the shoddiest piece of work into your field of work simply because it's better to have something really bad than nothing. All accepting a bad piece of work as passable does is widen the Overton window. It's why participation trophies are bad or passing someone with only 50% of the work done/correct.
#67 by zakashi
2020-05-09 at 15:47
I think the solution is improving the machine translators until their performance becomes even better than a human translation, this way there will be more translations being released in the same amount of time, reducing their prices.
So, I prefer encouraging people to upgrade their abilities using a machine translator than completely rejecting the use of these tools.Last modified on 2020-05-09 at 15:49
#68 by ecchihieronymus
2020-05-09 at 15:55
#67

I think the solution is improving the machine translators until their performance becomes even better than a human translation
and by doing so destroy an entire field of work?! Yikes!! Honestly, I think (& hope since my future job depends on it) that machines will never be able to fully grasp or learn the nuances that are needed to translate something, especially when it comes to Japanese.
#69 by encrypted12345
2020-05-09 at 16:00
link Here's an interesting video on the subject from someone who has read the title in question. tl;dr He doesn't hate the fact tsundere was changed, but he disagrees with the translator's feminist-biased interpretation of Jacobo which lead to the translation choice. Jacobo's inherent flaws weren't related to his maleness, and I am inclined to agree.

@67 Yeah, no, that isn't going to happen until we figure out true ai. There's a lot of context and nuance reading when it comes to translating one language to another. Pure machine tl is terrible at it. If it's a sentence or two, the context is simple enough, but for a whole story, the context and nuance becomes too complex for a machine translator to keep the story coherent. As for how close we are to figuring out true ai, no one really knows. For all we know, sapience may only be possible in organic bodies for reasons that can't be emulated mechanically.Last modified on 2020-05-09 at 16:13
#70 by warfoki
2020-05-09 at 16:18
@68

Ehh, not happening. Not until we map out how the human brain works in great detail and can replicate it to create truly autonomous, sentient AIs. Which would be such an absolute and total gamechanger in how EVERYTHING in human civilization works, that translators not being necessary anymore would be the least of our problems.
#71 by zakashi
2020-05-09 at 17:45
I think you guys see danger where it doesn't exist, things change, humans adapt to it, if AIs become these god-like structures that can do anything a human can but better, so everything will be easier for us, since we won't need to do any dangerous job anymore, or better yet, we won't even need to WORK anymore, since machines will do everything for us, this fear you guys have is understandable if you don't put your imagination into work, in the case of machine translators, they don't do the work alone, there has to be a human coordinating the project (if this is your concern).

#68 If your future job depends on it, then you can try to innovate in the field by bringing the improvements in machine translators and your imagination, but if it is impossible, then you will have to adapt, sorry but nowadays you have to improve yourself continuously and don't always stick to the status quo, so I advise you to not close yourself to only one type of job, imagine if human alarm clocks (this job existed) didn't try to adapt for the reality we exist right now, with alarm clocks being cell phone apps.

Look my point is, machine translators improving their technology will be for the best for the customers, since VNs will be cheaper to produce and to buy, so I hope for this in the future.Last modified on 2020-05-09 at 17:53
#72 by encrypted12345
2020-05-09 at 18:10
@71 I know that we're getting really off-topic with talk of the possible technological singularity, but I would like to say that that things that don't need to exist for a society to function are very at risk of being at getting their head at chopping block. Hopefully in this case, not literally. Once machines make humans obsolete in a society, humans are likely enough to be tossed out entirely instead of being left alone to live in pleasure. If not by the machines themselves, then by the people in power.Last modified on 2020-05-09 at 18:11
#73 by forever-here
2020-05-09 at 18:20
#71 machines can't into art. that's the biggest problem. and art comes from both creativity and innovation, which machines cannot as well. I'd argue that's the (only) advantage humans have over machines.
#74 by zakashi
2020-05-09 at 18:35
hahahaha humans own things, machines don't, so you can just buy some machine to work for you, or buy stocks from some company who owns these machines and make a huge profit, or you can play some football and make a bit of money (I can't wait for the moment when robots will start doing box the same way we see in Real Steel, and this doesn't mean that boxers will stop working, one thing is one thing, another is another), either way, machine translators improving are for the best, with google translator for example any person can translate anything (badly depending on the language, but can), and also this is just another tool to anyone who wants to learn a new language, so this is good for these people too, AND for VN customers, or do you want to pay huge amounts of money for any VN?Last modified on 2020-05-09 at 18:38
#75 by ecchihieronymus
2020-05-09 at 18:55
#74

I want to pay as much money as is needed so that the people involved will earn a decent wage. Sorry that I'm not as flexible or comfortable when it comes to sudden change. I don't want to just be the person who's keeping the machine in check/edits for it since I'm already at its mercy at that point. I don't want to work for a couple of pennies per line. You really need to think this AI thing through, because they'll be able to replace use if they've achieved human level JP==>any language translation. It's weird but if I pay too low a price I feel like someone's got royally fucked for it to be that cheap. MG's $45 is already way too Low and I haven't even mentioned the NN, JAST, Sekai and SP prices which all hover at $30-35, half of what it'd be in JP (yeah yeah, entertainment is overpriced there but it should be higher still/hover around MG's $45 at least).