Regarding c33.57

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#1 by thorcsf
2020-10-17 at 05:43
< report >Hello. What do you mean by "she is not bisexual"? She engages in lesbian activity with Rin and enjoys it. She even asks Rin to "give her more" when Rin is kissing her on the mouth. She wouldn't kiss Rin so much and she wouldn't have sex with Rin if she was straight.

The "bisexual" trait was also added to Rin 11 months ago for the same scene/reason.Last modified on 2020-10-17 at 05:46
#2 by rampaa
2020-10-17 at 07:41
< report >Hi.

She's not attracted to females romantically or sexually. She did not engage in said activity with Rin due to her own desire, the situation was compelling them, Rin was willing to "prepare" Saber for Shirou, and Saber was cooperating, that's all there is to it (that is, if my memory is not failing me). I don't remember any sign before or after the said scene where Saber shows any sign of attraction to Rin (whether be it romantic or sexual) or any other female character, whereas she clearly shows them for Shirou (both romantic and sexual).

And I believe her own lore implies she's not a bisexual as well. She had a wife (because the perfect king should have one, according to populace) named Guinevere who she didn't show any romantic or sexual interest. I am assuming if she was into girls as well, she would try to find a wife who would enjoy the company of a girl, that way she wouldn't have made her queen feel like they are "discarding the happiness of a woman" to play the role of a queen. Yet she didn't marry such a woman and her marriage was "one that would never be consummated". Even though if she was into girls, it could be "consummated", yet no such thing happened. Even Merlin's plan to produce an heir didn't involve her having sex with Guinevere (at least as far as I know).

And lastly, consider the following: She have been marked with two traits (Group Sex of One Male and Several Females and Lesbian Sex) for the aforementioned scene already, so what new insight does Bisexual offer? Do you suppose anyone who's actively searching for bisexual girls would miss a character who shows no sign of being a bisexual before (including their lore) or after an h-scene, when that very h-scene is there not because of lust but their life and death situation compels them? That's why I think adding Bisexual to Saber would only misdirect people's expectations and really wouldn't add anything of value.
#3 by thorcsf
2020-10-19 at 06:41
< report >Thank you for answering. I understand your point, but I still disagree. The fact that she never had manifested interest in women before the h-scene, doesn't mean that she didn't come to like it after. Every bisexual person has their first time with a person of the same sex eventually; even when they didn't show interest in them since always.

I will give you an example. I've played a Yuri visual novel called Ne no Kami - The Two Princess Knights of Kyoto. The protagonist, Len, is a bisexual by the end of the story, but she never had manifested interest in women before what happens in the story. She is a high school student that have never dated anyone before, and she writes in her diary that she dreams about the day when she will finally have a boyfriend. She then re-encounters a childhood female friend by the name of Uzume, that had a crush for her when they were kids because Uzume thought she was a boy, because she dressed like one and looked like one (she was just a tomboy, but considered herself a woman and didn't manifest interest in women nor in her friend Uzume). When they finally reunite, Uzume discovers that Len is actually a girl and is shocked. But then Uzume continues to be in love with Len even now knowing that she is a girl; she doesn't care about the gender. Len doesn't notice Uzume's feelings towards her and continue to be just friends. Even though Uzume manifests her feelings towards her many times, Len takes forever to notice, because she never thought that a girl could be attracted to another girl and date them (yeah, it's crazy, but she thought that). When Len finally starts to be aware of Uzume's feelings, she starts to feel lust towards Uzume; not romantic feelings, just lust. They eventually have sex out of lust, but doesn't kiss, attending Len's desire. After that Len still doesn't admit having feelings towards Uzume, she only had lust/sexual curiosity. Len then feels guilty for "using" Uzume to satisfy her lust and stops visiting her friend and they stay a few days without seeing one another. After several days Len makes peace with her mind and admits her feelings towards her friend and goes to visit her again and apologize. They reunite and Len declares her feelings towards Uzume, they have sex again and now they kiss.

Of course Saber and Rin doesn't have a story between them like that, but my point is that Len was hetero in the beginning of the story (just like Saber), she never had interest in women before, but ends up having her first time with a person of the same sex eventually (like it happens with many bisexual people in real life), and then she falls in love.
Saber and Rin never fall in love with each other, but they do feel pleasure out of their kissing and sex. If you have a gay experience with someone for the first time (even if you never had interest in it before) and you like/feel pleasure with it, it means now that you are a homo or bisexual. It's a fact. Ever listened to Katy Perry's song? "I kissed a girl. I liked it." Okay, now you know that you are into girls.

The fact that Saber didn't show interest in Rin nor before nor after the h-scene doesn't change the fact that she liked/felt pleasure with their lesbian experience. And it's kind of obvious that their relationship/interest in one another would not be further explored in the game as there was no reason for it, as Rin is not the protagonist, Shirou is; that's why their (Saber and Shirou's) relationship is further developed.

About Merlin's plan to produce a heir, of course it didn't involve Arturia having sex with Guinevere, as they were both women, so it's physically impossible.

About the sexual traits and the 'Bisexual' trait, there's a difference. 'Group Sex' and 'Lesbian Sex' are sexual traits, while 'Bisexual' is a role trait. So there's value in adding it. For example, if I enter a character profile and set to see minor spoilers but not sexual traits, I would see 'Bisexual', but I wouldn't see 'Group Sex of One Male and Several Females' and 'Lesbian Sex'. If the 'Bisexual' trait is not added, I would never know that she has one or more lesbian experiences in the story, or interest, if I don't set to see the sexual traits. That's the difference and that's why I think adding 'Bisexual' has something to offer. After all, it's the truth (at least she becomes one after her first lesbian experience with pleasure).

And lastly, even if the h-scene/their lesbian interaction is there not out of lust, but because their life and death situation compels them, it doesn't mean that they didn't enjoy/feel pleasure/lust with it. Specially Rin, that was the active person, but Saber also liked, asked for more when was being kissed by Rin, and became wet with Rin's teasing and fingering.

Rin and Shirou's h-scene in UBW was also out of necessity for their lives, but they also did it with love, passion and lust. There wasn't love in Rin and Saber's interaction, but there was certainly passion and lust.Last modified on 2020-10-20 at 06:08
#4 by yorhel
2020-10-19 at 07:24
< report >FWIW, I agree with rampaa.

It was a single interaction - and out of necessity at that. There was not a single mention of that "passion and lust" you talk about after that scene. For the rest of the story they treat each other without even a single hint that they crave after each other - or any other girls for that matter. Calling them bisexual feels like setting all the wrong expectations.
#5 by rampaa
2020-10-19 at 12:53
< report >Thank you for your reply as well. I understand where you are coming from but I also still disagree. Mainly because it sets wrong expectations. The whole ordeal was a one time thing and there's no hint that Saber "awakened" as a bisexual after the said scene.

I think it's fair to assume when you have a huge incentive (ie. the alternative is leaving the yourself and the one(s) who you swore to protect to perish) to take physical pleasure by getting your erogenous zones stimulated (that's mainly their deal anyway), feeling physical pleasure is but normal and it really doesn't require you to be a bisexual. To best of our knowledge, Saber did not ever feel attracted to females and she did not begin doing so after the said deed either.

About Merlin's plan to produce a heir, of course it didn't involve Arturia having sex with Guinevere, as they were both women, so it's physically impossible.
If this was a world without magic, sure. But Nasuverse has magic and Merlin is a powerful magus. And Merlin actually did transform Arturia to a pseudo-male for an unknown duration of time so that she can produce sperm (which was stolen by her sister Morgan by placing Arturia under a spell, that's how Mordred was conceived). So it really wasn't impossible.

Anyway, that's pretty much everything I can say about this matter. I doubt we will be able to convince each other but eh, at least we both tried.
#6 by thorcsf
2020-10-21 at 06:30
< report >@Yorhel, but @Rampaa, please read as well.

It doesn't matter that there was only a single lesbian interaction between them (there was no need for more in the story, the protagonist is Shirou after all, and the "Fate" route was dedicated to Saber and Shirou), one lesbian experience with pleasure is enough to make a girl a homo or bisexual. It's like the example I gave about Katy Perry's song: "I kissed a girl. I liked it." Yeah, their experience was out of necessity, just like Shirou's and Rin's in UBW as well, but it doesn't mean that they (Shirou and Rin) didn't appreciate it/didn't make it with love/didn't feel pleasure and lust. They did, all those things.

And Rin and Saber's lesbian interaction wasn't entirely out of necessity. Rin enjoyed it. Rin could just well have sexually teased only Shirou, if she was really a heterosexual and disliked girls. No girl would ever do all those things Rin did to Saber with so much pleasure and lust if she didn't like girls. I, as a heterosexual man, would never give so much tender kisses on a guy with pleasure and have sex with him, with pleasure. Even if my life was on the line like theirs, I could (with extreme necessity and disgust) kiss and have sex with a guy to save my life, but I'd never feel pleasure from it, and I would be disgusted. Rin and Saber weren't. They felt pleasure and lust, and Saber even craved for more.

There was not a single mention of that "passion and lust" you talk about after that scene. For the rest of the story they treat each other without even a single hint that they crave after each other.

Not after the scene, I said during the scene. Passion and lust during their sex. As for how they treat each other for the rest of the story, I already explained it before. It wasn't necessary to further develop their romantic relationship after that h-scene, because Rin is not the protagonist, Shirou is. The "Fate" route is dedicated to Saber and Shirou, not to Rin. That's why Saber and Shirou's romantic relationship is further developed. But even they barely touch the subject after what happens in that ruin in the forest for the rest of the story, let alone Saber and Rin! Do you understand my point? Shirou and Saber only touch the subject again when they have to have sex again after Saber and Gilgamesh's confront, because she uses Excalibur again and loses her magical energy again.

@Rampaa, Regarding Saber, it wasn't just her having her erogenous zones stimulated, Saber also felt romantic pleasure from Rin's kissing in the beginning, and she even craved for more. No girl would like a kiss from another girl if she disliked girls.

Feeling physical pleasure is but normal and it really doesn't require you to be a bisexual.

I disagree. As I said, it wasn't just physical pleasure, it was also romantic pleasure from the kissing. But even if there was no kissing (and no breast grab, nipples licking and sucking too), just the fingering, I, in Saber's place, would feel no pleasure from a woman if I didn't like them. I, as a heterosexual man, would never like/feel pleasure from a man handjobbing me, nor kissing me.

Wait, isn't Mordred Morrigan's (is it Morrigan or Morgan, I can't remember) son? Are you talking about incest between Arturia and Morrigan? No, never mind, I think you are telling me spoilers. I didn't play HF yet (I'm finishing UBW), I've never heard of this story, so I assume it's something told in HF route. Don't tell me anything more about that route, please. :P Oh, man, that's crazy magic what Merlin did to Arturia! Oh, gosh, don't tell me anything more about it. :P

OK, let's leave Saber off for a while now and talk about Rin? Is it OK? As I said in the beginning, I saw that someone added the 'Bisexual' trait to Rin 11 months ago, but they left it as "no spoiler". At the same day I added the trait do Saber, I changed the rating in that trait in Rin's profile to "minor spoiler", just like I left in Saber's profile. But a user named Silence removed that trait right after my edit, just like you did with Saber. I also messaged them to talk about it, but they never answered me. That's why I thanked you for answering me, because they didn't. Who answered me there was the guy/gal above, Yorhel, but they locked that thread to "keep the discussion in one place" (here). I was frustrated because we were discussing two different characters, and I hadn't talked about Rin here, just about Saber, and I had different arguments for the two of them. So since Yorhel brought the discussion about Rin here, can we talk about her too? If it isn't to much of a bother, can you read my arguments for Rin there? Specially at the end where I talk about a possible romantic interest in Saber from Rin prior to the h-scene. Here it is the thread again: t14874.

If after all that you are still not convinced about their bisexuality (specially Rin's), I have one last resort to refresh up your minds, since it seems that it's been a long time you experienced that scene. Screenshots! :D

It's a link to a gallery. I've selected 29 screenshots of Saber and Rin's interaction. Just open the first image and then use the arrows on your keyboard to navigate through them. I took the screenshots in full screen at 1080p, so if they are too large to your browser's window, decrease the zoom by pressing 'Ctrl + -' (to return to 100% later, just press 'Ctrl + 0'). Please read all the dialogs and narration, and you will understand. Specially regarding Rin. Rin was the one that got more aroused and the one who enjoyed the most.

Here it is: link

I must admit that even I didn't remember all the details. It's been 1.5 year since I've seen this scene. I didn't remember that Saber did show some resistance to Rin a few times, like she was uncomfortable, but it could have been out of embarrassment, as she also showed some resistance to Shirou after they were having sex (I didn't include those screenshots). But even if you guys are still not convinced about Saber, there can be no doubt about Rin. She discovered her attraction to women after this experience. The main evidence is this phrase: "Ah... hm... I'm surprised... I didn't think I swung this way." So, she is admitting (BTW, that's also the evidence that the guy used to add the Bisexual trait to Rin 11 months ago). That's adding to all her naughtiness, lust and pleasure during the act. AND there's also that slight romantic interest in Saber that I mentioned before, that happens prior to the h-scene.

OK, I'm exhausted now, haha. So, what do you guys think? :)Last modified on 2020-10-21 at 06:49
#7 by yorhel
2020-10-21 at 06:54
< report >Sorry but I'm not going to read through that wall of text, so I just skimmed. I think this sums it up pretty well:

Feeling physical pleasure is but normal and it really doesn't require you to be a bisexual.
I disagree.
I, as a heterosexual man, would never like/feel pleasure from a man handjobbing me, nor kissing me.
So you're projecting your own view of sexuality onto fictional characters. Don't, ever, do, that.

According to the story we have no reason to believe they are bisexual, other than a single scene where they seemingly enjoy sexual contact given the situation. But that's an entirely different thing than being sexually attracted to the same sex. If the story doesn't tell us more explicitely that they're bisexual, then they aren't for the purposes of this database.

Unless other mods reading along have been convinced otherwise and want to chime in, let's leave it at that.Last modified on 2020-10-21 at 06:58
#8 by beliar
2020-10-21 at 16:11
< report >I am in agreement with Rampaa/Yorhel. There is a distinction between an act and a sexuality. Bisexuality means you view both sexes as potential romantic partners - it's more than just sex.
No one is entirely gay or straight, majority of people could perform a homosexual act, under certain circumstances, and even fell good doing it. That doesn't mean they would seek those acts. Having one instance of consensual gay sex does not make you gay or bi, it simply means you are adventurous enough to experiment. It means even less if performed under necessity, like in FSN.

FSN is not an outlier here, only the most well known example. Lots of VNs toss in one or two lesbian sex scenes for titillation, especially within the OELVN community. That doesn't make the heroines bi, as the "Bisexual" trait would lose all meaning and become diluted, if applied to every heroine that has ever engaged in lesbian sex.

Neither Rin nor Saber ever thought about their encounter again after that in a sexual way, nor they sought each other's company again. I'm sure the scene was just thrown in for titillation purposes by Nasu, and he didn't even think that some people might take it this way. The scene was just there to satisfy the "Girl on girl is hot" trope, and some people are just thinking too much. :-)

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