|#26 by ecchihieronymus|
2021-05-08 at 20:38
|< report >The job title translator itself isn't protected like a medical doctor or lawyer, anyone with sufficient enough knowledge of two or more languages can call themself translator. I'll probably go down that route once my JP is up to snuff. You want to muddle that field even more with edited MTLs? These people are nothing more than editors for machines, and VNDB 'gatekeeps' MTL for good reasons.|
#17 It's gripe, fyi :)
|#27 by acereishiki|
2021-05-08 at 20:49
|< report >The translation works, it was just that simple. I'm not a goddamn Japanese, I'm not even a native English speaker, but if I can enjoy the game using this thing someone went out of their way to create, I couldn't even give a damn. I'm not going to make life even more difficult for myself. I will still spit on the work those like SakuraGame 'created', but that's because I knew that I will not be able to enjoy their results. If Google somehow developed an AI so advanced they could translate things better than human translator, you can bet that I would abuse the hell out of that machine. I'm just that simple.|
For me, it was not whether they used MTL or not, but whether the translation achieved what the game is made for, entertainment. And they did, I could understand the game, I could play and enjoy it, and fricking hell that was all I wanted from these stranger giving things for free.
|#28 by tremmy|
2021-05-08 at 20:53
|< report >Its all just job security, please understand. You are supposed to be reading the latest official memege for $49.99. Not something someone did for free. Also, stop enjoying things.|
|#29 by acereishiki|
2021-05-08 at 20:57
|< report >Someone finally said it, someone finally said the damn thing. Well, I'll just go to sleep then. To hell with all those bastard charities and volunteers in this beautiful world. Cheers.|
|#30 by kn1000a|
2021-05-08 at 22:20
|< report >@24 I mean, anybody who really care for Eushully or [insert games they love] could also do the better alternative - learn JP. With this you're pretty much set for life, don't have to wait for any fan or official TL.|
@25 If I give you a well-edited fanfiction based on Kamidori and tell you it's the official light novel sequel, I guess you'll eat it up too :P
|#31 by shinytentacool|
2021-05-08 at 22:57
|< report >If VN market was big it'd be one thing but it's not. Just be happy someone did something, because if they hadn't probably no one would've for the next 10 years or something. It's that simple. Also it's an anime porn game, it's not Tolstoy and people here already said it's perfectly readable|
|#32 by zolty|
2021-05-09 at 00:55
|< report >Hey guys, |
First, could a moderator (u4762) please remove the release entry r56976?
That project was discontinued due to translators abandoning the project, and I've removed it from the ZAP website because it was causing confusion so it's not accessible anymore.
What is the usual process for deletion, submitting a report or asking in a specific thread?
Second, a mini rant, because I get the impression that people think that because machine translation was used, all the translator did was look at the English sentences that came out of that and assemble them in a way that makes logical and grammatical sense, regardless of the accuracy.
This is not the case with Depravity, he uses machine translation in his process, but that does not mean that he has no knowledge of the Japanese language, the conversations had in their Discord community show that he does and there have been multiple examples of accurate translations shown throughout.
He clearly knows something about Japanese grammar, Kanji, Kana, onomatopeias, references, etc.
Sure, some wordplay and nuances might be missed, but that would happen even if translated by a fluent speaker, because two languages can't be translated to each other perfectly.
Also, some examples have been shared of jokes and cultural/pop references in the dialog, that have been translated well and accurately (for example, a reference about Gurren Lagann).
The original text files are easy enough to get so you can always compare the translation to the original yourself, if you wish (of course you will need some Japanese skills to understand it in the first place).
Ultimately it's your choice but if you want to play this game in English, I would recommend using his patch.
|#33 by then00bavenger|
2021-05-09 at 04:06
|< report >I think the machine translation rule should be to keep people from releasing patches that literally just do the exact same thing that anyone else can do even without using a patch.|
As it is, I don't think there's any rule keeping someone who barely knows Japanese releasing a patch without assistance from machine translation. It would be an extremely inaccurate translation of course but I don't think you really see people trying to get translations removed just because they're bad. I don't think adding machine translation assistance into the equation should suddenly make things different.
I've seen people that have no business translating release translations presumably without machine assistance that are still just as awful as people releasing translations with machine assistance and I don't really see the difference between them.
I don't approve of releasing stuff of that quality personally(and I absolutely hate the "hurrr anything is better than nothing" mindset) but gatekeeping them in a database like this doesn't feel right to me.
|#34 by yorhel|
2021-05-09 at 05:49
|< report >|
gatekeeping them in a database like this doesn't feel right to me.And you know what? I fully agree. But until we have such a flag, we can agree on what such a flag will do, and can agree on what kind of releases we do accept, that kinda won't happen. :(
|#35 by naiohoras|
2021-05-09 at 06:31
|< report >#34 that reminds me that a vote filter based on a release might be useful. it's the middle between the current voting system and EGS'.|
currently, we have the ability to add a release to our list, but it only include option like "obtained, on loan, etc." which is not really that useful, hence probably why so many users just completely ignore the feature. the filter could solve problem like "I rated this game bad because the translation is shit" or "I rated this game bad because I played the PS2 ver. which didn't include H-scenes", hence more accurate rating for the VN. anything else, I pretty much in alignment with Decay's points on t7126.
|#36 by seryuu|
2021-05-09 at 08:05
|< report >I would say that keeping mtl out was the right decision. Even a databases should have some kind of minimum standards, and when it comes to translation I would say that the minimum standard is actually knowing the language you are translating from ... Just like you wouldn't go to some random person on the street to take care of your medical problems, or you wouldn't enter a airplane that is being piloted by someone who never received any piloting training.|
If VNDB were to start accepting mtl patches, people would start spamming them, and make trash mtl patches for literally every game like they are doing now in the RPG Maker community. So VNDB did a very good thing here by banning them.
Also as someone who works in the localization industry I can assure you that a game received a mtl patch drastically reduces its chance of getting a official localization. We do look at those things when deciding what to localize.Last modified on 2021-05-09 at 08:12
|#37 by xenrir|
2021-05-09 at 08:28
|< report >Haven't hopped on my account in ages, or updated what I've read, but this topic was interesting to me having already played it in Japanese and was checking out how it was being received. |
So I've been going through the JP version and the patch side by side - I wouldn't have guessed there was machine work in here, as it's more readable than most English translations, but perhaps that may be more evident in later chapters as I believe it was 73% translated originally before Depravity finished it? It's definitely not winning literary awards, the writing lacks some character, but it's completely readable, and the meanings of things are generally accurate.
#36 No English company will ever get Eushully to the table to discuss localization anyways. They're antiquated and hate gaijin, so in this instance it doesn't matter. I generally agree about keeping MTLs out, though.
|#38 by pstevo123|
2021-05-09 at 09:51
|< report >@37 completely readable is all I need to hear, |
I find this site a joke when it comes to things like this when they allow a game like Hakoniwa Logic or Harem Game to be listed as complete because you could officially buy it yet the whole game is machined and a poor machine job.
But then removed the Flyable Heart listing altogether which has the same if not better quality then both Hakoniwa Logic and Harem Game only because you cant' officially buy it like the others they leave on here.
|#39 by beliar|
2021-05-09 at 09:59
|< report >Lol, Flyable Heart is not even an edited machine translation. It's a raw machine output. Mayhap they did some grammar corrections, but no editing for sure. The fact you think that's 'readable' shows a lot about the quality some peple are ok with :-(|
|#40 by bcirno|
2021-05-09 at 10:09
|< report >Using machine translation actually cultivates a superior form of reading where you constantly have to use your imagination while thinking about multiple possibilites of meaning and developing a high contextual awareness, questioning every word and seeing every sentence as multiple possible sentences, composing your own story simultaneously to fill in the gaps and calculating uncertainties while contemplating the nature of ambiguity. Readers of Japanese just passively access memorised and thus already stagnant data, while MTL readers actively engage with the text on a much more fundamental level, being intellectually more in tune with the writer's intention and the truth of the text.|
|#41 by zolty|
2021-05-09 at 10:46
|< report >#37|
Your second sentence is why I wanted to remove the release entry for the ZAP dialog patch.
Because of these misunderstandings.
Depravity's patch has no relation to the dialog patch that was once in progress from ZAP.
He did all the dialog translating himself, he did not look at the discontinued ZAP patch and finished it or made it better or anything, he translated things himself from beginning to end.
And, at risk of confusing people further, when Depravity first started working on his dialog patch, he did use a revised version of the ZAP-translated prologue, but he has since re-done it from scratch, though it has kept some words from it.
Whilst me and Depravity have spoken to each other a lot, the ZAP interface patch and his dialog patch are completely separate, which is also why he intends to eventually create a complete version with revisions to the interface patch to make things consistent with his dialog, and to fix bugs that were left there since 2018.
|#42 by hansfranz77|
2021-05-09 at 12:37
|< report >#40 Is this a copy pasta? It sure reads like one lol.|
Regarding the topic what yorhel linked and and what #35 posted are imo steps in the right direction. Having some kind of tl quality rating system to filter out and warn folks about shit, but still having it listed, just with a big warning right on top. I do however not think the part where yorhel mentioned having this flag only available for moderators is the way to do it. If such a thing gets implemented it should be visible to everyone. Otherwise it is pretty much useless to the vast majority of the user base on this site.
The fact of the matter is there are MTL translated games already in this db. Just because they have an official publisher like link for example doing that in the past (maybe even still?), does not make those any more valid to be in the db, imo.
Hell i would even say it would be far more worthy and important to especially flag those things. To not have folks waste their money on something that might be a product that can be bought sure, but does fall way below the average tl quality.
Speaking of link If we can just put a warning like this one here on top of the company / translator profile too it should be even easier to spot the folks doing a shit job compared to the ones knowing what they are doing, right?Last modified on 2021-05-09 at 12:57
|#43 by lordnight|
2021-05-09 at 12:55
|< report >Did someone justified and glorified reading an MTL translation?|
I don't know what to feel, should I be concerned or be amazed?
|#44 by iwannarategames|
2021-05-09 at 13:09
|< report >Yeah fuck MTL lol. We don't need that low effort shit!|
|#45 by pstevo123|
2021-05-09 at 13:15
|< report >@39 I think you missed the point, All these should be removed it makes no scene to remove Flyable Heart but not remove Harem Game for instance, But because this site does not remove it then this patch in question should be classed as 100% if games like Hakoniwa Logic and so on are allowed to be. |
Why single out this game but not the others it my question to you.
|#46 by acereishiki|
2021-05-09 at 14:04
|< report >@45 They already said that they only accept official MTL, so stop trying to make things even more complicated. And some people here, talking shits about this translation or even any translation anywhere, I had a feeling they didn't even check the tl quality in first place, like they were just trying to fit into group conformity or something. I thought vndb was better than this.|
|#47 by bcirno|
2021-05-09 at 15:47
|< report >|
I had a feeling they didn't even check the tl quality in first placeno one gonna waste time on mtl trash
translator wasted 10 months of his life to edit mtl instead of learning japanese already
mtl usage should always be discouraged
#42, yeah, it's my favorite mtl copypasta
|#48 by shinytentacool|
2021-05-09 at 16:20
|< report >Can I get a list of english releases that didn't make it into VNDB? Cause if this is readable in perfectly understandable English and that still doesn't get past VNDb's scruples, then to me VNDB is no longer trustworthy|
|#49 by hansfranz77|
2021-05-09 at 17:00
|< report >#48 i wouldn't go so far. But i sure as hell would call what vndb is doing at the moment a very unfortunate outcome of ignoring a growing problem for years. Hell the post yorhel linked to was form six whole years ago 2015! Why in the ever loving hell did nobody act to implement something in all this time? The situation we now have and with this game, and thus i wanted to use to discuss - so we can avoid similar things in the future, was created due to inaction and plain ignoring an obvious problem that only grew bigger over time. And now the database that should list visual novel releases is very much on the way of becoming irrelevant. Can we please use this to figure something out? To have some type of middle ground tl rating system going forward? |
#46 I just come out and ask you, do you not see the problem with this situation? Do you really prefer to leave this situation as is instead of working out a solution to not have to delete just the unofficial ones, but finding a compromise. I find it utterly baffling you posted this and somehow are perfectly ok with the state of things. Honestly this reminds me of a child putting their hands before their eyes and just telling themselves there isn't a big problem right before their very eyes. We need to do something!
#47 Sadly that is not true. It became obvious this would happen the moment publishers started using MTL and asking money for it. Now we do not just have them but indie folks doing it via patreon as well. And somehow just the ones asking money for it directly get the right to be listed on vndb. That is laughable, ngl.
Either all of those entries stay. Or none of them should. That is the extreme solution you could do, if somehow a quality rating system like we do have for vns already, but for the translations and translators themselves is too much to ask for. You could even do it in a similar way to the tag rating system, so that lower rated entries do not show up as often in the search, maybe? Speaking of which the downvoting on tags could really use the same steps as the upvoting already has. And not just -3. But i digress..
Worst case scenario would be if you clean out all of those done with MTL do not start to wonder when the db becomes deprecated in only a few years.Last modified on 2021-05-09 at 17:53
|#50 by funnerific|
2021-05-09 at 17:22
|< report >|
But if you clean out all of those done with MTL do not start to wonder when the db becomes deprecated in only a few years.I think you underestimate how old VNDB is...