Amayui castle meister Translation

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#51 by kratoscar2008
2021-05-09 at 17:26
< report >Its tiring to see vndb trying to be an arbiter who what makes or doesnt make a thing and this mentality that they decide what to include or not.
In this case the database should serve as that, a database, and include all available translations, sure you can think it isnt a real translation but the fact is that MANY people consider it one and play them. People looking for a translation can and will play an edited MTL and this database should include it so people know they have that as an option. I mean we have descriptions on releases for a reason and that can be used to tell people its an MTL and let them decide if they play it or not.
I see the argument some make that legitimating an MTL could risk a real translation not coming out but its kind of pointless since no one knows for sure the game receiving a real translation was even a possibility, its only an assumption. So yeah all of this elitism makes the database lose credibility.
#52 by hansfranz77
2021-05-09 at 17:32
< report >#50
And i think you underestimate how relevant MTL will become going forward. Don't get me wrong i do not advocate pro MTL, hell i actively try to go around them most of the time, that is why i would find a rating system and inclusion of every possible release a great thing to have. I have no idea how this can be so hard to understand, guys? The folks just wanting to not list mtl on principle. What do you think will happen to such a db if mtl becomes the basis for pretty much every tl. And i really do see that happening, just becasue it is way cheaper and can be done in way less time, so folks will use it more and more. In that case you would have a vast amount of existing translations just missing out of this db. I do not think that is a great way of doing things, thus we should solve this issue in the near future.Last modified on 2021-05-09 at 17:34
#53 by beliar
2021-05-09 at 17:37
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And now the database that should list visual novel releases is very much on the way of becoming irrelevant.
Well, if you think listing machine translations would somehow add relevancy to the db... Let's just say you have some awefully strange ideas.
#54 by hansfranz77
2021-05-09 at 17:38
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I mean we have descriptions on releases for a reason and that can be used to tell people its an MTL and let them decide if they play it or not.

That is not a bad idea, maybe we could even create a tag to put on these entries as well stating it is MTL and telling folks going into such a release what to expect. There should be a myriad of possible ways to solve this, but we do have to start somewhere and it would be great if that happens soon as well.Last modified on 2021-05-09 at 17:39
#55 by hansfranz77
2021-05-09 at 17:39
< report >#53 doing noting will only make things worse.
#56 by kratoscar2008
2021-05-09 at 17:42
< report >#53
Yes? Again its a database. Include the translation so people know it exists and then decide if they play it or not.

#54
I think some kind of option to put on the releases should be enough, like choose no TL, TL, MTL.
#57 by hansfranz77
2021-05-09 at 17:44
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I think some kind of option to put on the releases should be enough, like choose no TL, TL, MTL.

Can you elaborate how that would look? Right in the release section of the vn itself or what do you mean?
#58 by kiru
2021-05-09 at 18:11
< report >@52: TL rating systems don't make sense. The only ones qualified on rating a translation are those who know Japanese, and do you think those people will put in the effort and work to check the translation in several different parts of the game to actually get a good answer? Of course not. Translations are primarily made for people who need them, and those aren't qualified to rate a translation, simple as that.

We have had enough drama with people raging about translation choices (that were entirely correct) or localization choices. Sometimes it's valid, but very often it's just "I don't like this, so it has to be a bad translation".
There's just one thing that's clear. If you actually know Japanese, there's never a reason to use machine translation as help. Especially if you edit it anyway. It's no extra work to do the translation yourself to begin with. In fact, it's arguably less work. So if someone actually edits machine translation, you can be pretty sure that they need that.
#59 by kratoscar2008
2021-05-09 at 18:13
< report >#57
link
Like have below languages an option to choose TL or MTL, ignore the no TL option.
Another thing in favor is the fact that more and more VNs get "questionable" TLs in english like say many chinese VNs do so its kind of ridiculous to ignore they exist just because of some elitist mindset that few people have.
#60 by tester
2021-05-09 at 18:55
< report >
create a tag to put on these entries as well stating it is MTL
> Tags are for all VNs, not for just releases, no?

why i would find a rating system
> Release rating system is quite bad idea, I think. Most people won't bother to compare it to original or even bother to see what is it written in the original. It will be kind of rating of readability, and readability is not the translation quality, but only a part of it.
> For instance, some VN may be cryptic and such, but it may have an actual translation (cryptic too). But users may just discard such translation as MTL because of readability.
> It would be hazardous to implement this.

MTL of literature still couldn't be called as actual TL (at least at this point), but there are MTL releases (official) in the database. They are much more relevant because of it's official status, but still.
Fan MTL wouldn't be much relevant in the database, but, as a compromise, the "crap button" is a good idea. But if some users would rate it, it could result in truly hazardous results.
It could be useful to implement also some "official crap button" or some other indication of the official MTL pieces.Last modified on 2021-05-09 at 18:57
#61 by hansfranz77
2021-05-09 at 19:43
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Translations are primarily made for people who need them, and those aren't qualified to rate a translation, simple as that.

#58 That is a fair point and might even be true.

It will be kind of rating of readability, and readability is not the translation quality, but only a part of it.

#60 But i honestly think having something adressing this issue is better than having nothing at all?
You could always put in work and effort to refine such a system over time. But just sitting in the corner doing nothing is what really irritates me.

They are much more relevant because of it's official status, but still.
Fan MTL wouldn't be much relevant in the database, but, as a compromise, the "crap button" is a good idea. But if some users would rate it, it could result in truly hazardous results.

I really do not understand this, if i follow your logic tag rating systems or vn rating systems as a whole are also a bad idea. Yet here we are, we do have them and they are a key feature of this site.
Imo the tag rating system is half-assed when it comes to downvoting, but still it is here, so what exactly is the point you are trying to make with this?Last modified on 2021-05-09 at 19:48
#62 by tester
2021-05-09 at 20:10
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I really do not understand this, if i follow your logic tag rating systems or vn rating systems as a whole are also a bad idea. Yet here we are, we do have them and they are a key feature of this site.
> Actually, no, it has a major difference.
> VN voting is "overall VN rating". It still has some issues, for example "overall rating" from the players who read the original and SakuraGame translation would obviously be different, but it's representative enough.
> Tag rating system is also representative enough. Yes, VN tags may not apply to all releases, but still. (As long as there are no tags such as "Machine Translation").

But just sitting in the corner doing nothing is what really irritates me.
> Sitting in the corner while having a problem is one issue, but implementing an unreasonable solution which could cause new major problems is completely other issue.
> "Crap button" as it is not a bad solution, but the nuances are important.

so what exactly is the point you are trying to make with this?
> Common VN tags and overall VN rating can be judged by common players, for they need just to play the game.
> Translation quality, on the other hand, is not so easy to estimate. It's not enough just to play the game, no. "Readability" is not equal to "TL quality". So the system there random users votes for "TL quality" wouldn't be representative enough for TL quality as it.
> But there is information about at least some releases as they considered an MTL. If implement the system of "crap button" and such, it'd need moderators to assign "MTL" mark on a release. Of course, not without the discussion.Last modified on 2021-05-09 at 20:14
#63 by Mrkew
2021-05-09 at 20:15
< report >Uprising of the MTL plebs
#64 by mozsca
2021-05-09 at 20:35
< report >While i also dont like mtl, the point of vndb is to have all information regarding visual novels listed and a mtl vn falls under that category, just add a type to it, pretty simple. Also im not that much of a cunt to disparage people who are fine with reading mtl titles(yes im taking shots). Its their view, businness and should have access to that information.
#65 by Mrkew
2021-05-09 at 20:47
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Also im not that much of a cunt to disparage people who are fine with reading mtl titles(yes im taking shots)
Wooooow. If you want I can also disparage you for being an EOP as you deserve.
#66 by matty123
2021-05-09 at 21:34
< report >For the Database to include MTL would be pretty stupid if you ask me (unless clearly marked), not sure if anyone reads CN, JP or KR novels here but novelupdates (which is essentially a db for Eastern Asian novels) went through a similar problem when almost every novel on there was MTL'ed when sites like LNMTL and ComradeMao popped up and some people argued that all those MTL's should be added to the DB prompting hundreds of forum posts asking where those novels can be found only for people to realize they were all MTL's and complain about it until they were mostly and rightly removed.

That said I have read plenty of MTL'ed novels over the years and will probably read this and am grateful that someone went to the trouble to make a patch but I don't think it should be in the database unless the DB is changed to clearly reflect MTL patches (not only as patch notes).Last modified on 2021-05-09 at 21:43
#67 by seryuu
2021-05-09 at 22:17
< report >MTL should always be discouraged. The databases getting flooded with fake translations doesn't help anyone. And as a matter of fact this is a visual novel database, not a translation database. So it still serves it purpose even without listing brain damaging mtl content. If you guys are addicted to low effort mtl, then you can consume it secretly in private without trying to actively hurt both developers and publishers.
#68 by Aresia
2021-05-09 at 22:30
< report >I had a feeling this thread is going to be a laughingstock in the future. History had shown as much.Last modified on 2021-05-09 at 22:32
#69 by gambs
2021-05-10 at 05:55
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If you actually know Japanese, there's never a reason to use machine translation as help.

Lmao, literally every translator uses MTL to some degree. DeepL does everything a J-E dictionary does but better, and can oftentimes perform things like idiom-to-idiom translation even when it comes to relatively rare phrases on either side, which a translator wouldn't be able to come up with off the top of their head unless they were extremely creative.

Using and/or editing MTL when you can't understand the Japanese is pointless, because you won't know if what you're getting back is right or not. But when you know Japanese and use MTL as a tool to translate, you're augmenting your brain with the power of big data, essentially becoming some sort of cyborg. And isn't that badass?Last modified on 2021-05-10 at 06:03
#70 by enselfar
2021-05-10 at 06:13
< report >This translation has perfectly readable English and honestly, that's a fine bar for its inclusion albeit "readable" can be a somewhat subjective term. I think the only issue was that Depravity should've just lied from the beginning and said it was a non-MTL assisted translation and it would've been fine since no one would be able to prove it after the editing. The intent of not allowing MTL on vndb in the first place was so that lazy copy pasting of MTL output wouldn't get submitted as often. Clearly, the way around that is to release it officially and charge 1 USD for it.Last modified on 2021-05-10 at 06:14
#71 by wyldstrykr
2021-05-10 at 07:19
< report >except that people with japanese knowlege will noticed it if they used the patch and imo that would be a larger problem than saying the truth.
theres a difference between editing a machine translation and translating with the help of machine translation. idk which is which. 2 cents
#72 by kiru
2021-05-10 at 07:23
< report >@69: Grasping at straws, huh. If you base your entire translation on MTL, that goes way past looking up some idioms to see if something fits. (usually won't)
And unfortunately, translators need to be creative. That's the biggest problem you have with JP -> EN translations.
#73 by periah250
2021-05-10 at 07:43
< report >Honestly I don't see the issue, this heavily edited mtl is still miles better than whatever the hell happened to "if you love me then say so"
#74 by bcirno
2021-05-10 at 09:01
< report >Translation alters EVERYTHING on a fundamental level. These flashy localization choices draw the most attention, but if you actually look at translations you'll see a huge divide between Japanese and English on a fundamental level. If you actually prefer something that doesn't alter anything - you're fucked. Learn Japanese. If you don't, then you don't actually care about this as much as you think you do, and you're just being tripped up by surface level examples on a moral standpoint more than a practical standpoint. If you believe heavy edited mtl is better than human translation with some questionable (from your point of view) localization choices, then something is wrong with you, unless this is just intentional shitpost. Since when so many people justifying and defending mtl usage on vndb? When did it went so wrong? Why God left all of us unfinished?
#75 by gambs
2021-05-10 at 09:47
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If you believe heavy edited mtl is better than human translation with some questionable (from your point of view) localization choices, then something is wrong with you

My top priority is preserving what the original author wanted to say, and ideally in a similar way to how they said it (or would have said it if they had been writing in English). Some "translators" like the ones who work for NekoNyan butcher the text so hard, that MTL is preferable given these goals. What NekoNyan does goes beyond "localization", it goes beyond "mistranslation", it's an intentional mangling of the text, to the point where I find what they're doing morally abhorrent. NekoNyan management should be tried in international court as Class A war criminals.