The messy display of multiversionlanguage releases

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#26 by beliar
2021-04-20 at 14:28
< report >Stripes for table No. 26, please!

P.S. Or, you know, you could make it possible for us to choose if we want to see stripes or not... Not sure how hard that would be to implement.
#27 by npzmzfg
2021-04-20 at 17:11
< report >I second the request for stripes. I'd actually like it if they were even more distinct.
#28 by lucumo
2021-04-21 at 06:46
< report >Yikes, looks like the website will become even less usable. Like I wrote before (which got ignored): Implement a global language filter! Then Utawarerumono page would look like this:
It would also make "upcoming releases" and "just released" useful, as I certainly don't care about some PT-BR release of some game tomorrow or several recent Chinese releases.

Additionally, do the drop-down/expand menu when the conditions are met like I mentioned before.
It would look like this then:
The android release would be at the top, the "+" would indicate that there is more and when you click on it, you see all the releases between the first and latest one. Simple and useful enough.
#29 by yorhel
2021-04-21 at 07:05
< report >I find sane defaults and good overviews a lot more useful than global settings that only 0.1% of people will use.

It would also make "upcoming releases" and "just released" useful
Case in point, we already have settings for these. The saved default for release filters apply to those listings on the homepage. (I know, totally not discoverable, but it exists)

Additionally, do the drop-down/expand menu when the conditions are met like I mentioned before.
Summarization with expand/collapse thing is definitely a good idea, but what are the criteria for hiding certain releases? How would it help in cases like One Night, Hot Springs where, without language flags, you'd have no clue what the difference is between those releases in the same language group? :/
#30 by lucumo
2021-04-21 at 12:46
< report >You said it yourself, discoverability is definitely an issue. I didn't know about default settings for releases on the home page, despite using the default settings for search results (though, I guess the former was added later). So if it was more prominent, more people would use it. Also, if you don't like the "global" part in "global settings", you can always add the option of letting us filter out releases on VN pages only (if you like it separate...and considering we already have two different ones...).

What do you mean, "without language flags"? The language is displayed above the releases and I generally disagree with any changes to that, as currently it looks basically perfect and it would also make implementing a language filter easier.
As for the criteria, basically what I wrote last page: "Also, for multiple releases there is always the option of a drop-down menu if developer/publisher, platform and medium are the same for another release of the same language. Basically, you see the initial release with an indicator that there are more releases by the same developer/publisher etc combo, you click on the expand arrow (or whatever) and the menu opens showing all other releases."

Though, as I wrote in my last post, displaying the first and latest release makes the most sense. So for "One Night, Hot Springs" you would basically see what is shown in my screenshot. Three releases for Japanese and English, two for basically every other language and one release for Polish (of course, with a language filter you could get rid of the irrelevant languages and make everything take even less space *cough*).
It would (or should at least) also apply to VNs like these: link
Hiding everything between the two chapter 1 and the chapter 19 release then, with an indicator that there is more in between and a + or arrow or whatever to expand.
#31 by yorhel
2021-04-21 at 14:09
< report >
The language is displayed above the releases
This is what the English releases for One Night look like: link - the entire point of this thread is to acknowledge that that listing is pretty useless and look for solutions. Even if you collapse/hide some of them by default (which would certainly be an improvement in this case), in expanded view you can't tell that each of those releases adds an additional language. My proposal fixes that. And adds the language filters that you're asking for.

An alternative that hasn't been brought up yet in this context: tracking which releases have been "superseded" by others. That way all the superseded releases can be hidden by default, which would also clean up the list. But the list still wouldn't be useful in expanded mode.

Hiding everything between the two chapter 1 and the chapter 19 release then, with an indicator that there is more in between and a + or arrow or whatever to expand.
Interesting case, hiding those in-between releases by default makes sense. Though according to your criteria, that would hide all releases except the first and the last one.

Note that the proposals being discussed aren't in conflict with each other:
- language filters (good idea, in any case).
- ungrouping releases by language and adding the language icons to each row (here we disagree, I think it's a good idea).
- hiding "uninteresting" releases by default, according to some criteria (certainly seems useful in some scenarios)
#32 by beliar
2021-04-21 at 14:48
< report >I'm skeptical about the whole "hide some releases and add a function to expand them" proposal. Seeing all the available releases is the main reason why one visits the VN page. You need to quickly see and ascertain how and what kind of releases exist and which of them would interest you. Sorting by language (not as a default, but as a user preference) makes sense, because certain users might only be interested in releases in certain languages.

However, contracting releases based on some arbitrary measures is something I absolutely don't support. Moreover, Lucumo chose the worst possible VN to illustrate his proposal. In Daughter for Dessert every release is individual and does not contain data from the preceding releases. Meaning, you absolutely must see the existence of them all. Contracting them, based on some arbitrary "I don't want to see them all" measure is just nonsense.

On the other hand, I do support flagging the superseded releases, and a possibility to filter them out in some way.
#33 by lucumo
2021-04-21 at 17:53
< report >@31: To be fair, it's also the fault of whoever added the releases. Usually, one would have written in the notes that language X got added (at least I would have done so). So that part isn't really an issue, in my opinion.
What language filter are you talking about? Are you referring to this messy thing? link Err, I very heavily prefer the current, nice and structured layout. Removing a language by "block" makes listings a lot less long, like I posted: link Also, removing languages is typically not a per-release thing but it's highly likely that people would prefer not seeing any releases in the languages that are unwanted.

@32: Rather, filtering by language, not sorting. I like to see all releases immediately as well. However, that doesn't mean it wouldn't make sense to contract things in some cases. One such case would be in "One Night, Hot Springs" where languages simply get added over time and everything else stays the same. Another I thought of was those (mostly Western) VNs where chapters get added over time or where the version number simply increases. Also, as you can easily see, it was not some "arbitrary measure" but it's based on the first and latest chapter. Whether each chapter is standalone or not isn't even that significant.

Though, my weight is behind a simple language filter that completely hides the releases rather than reorganizing things and moving other things around which makes everything look way more messy in the end.
The expanding/contracting idea is for rather few VNs anyway and would always be applied manually. In the end, it's just an idea, no weight behind that from me.
#34 by beliar
2021-04-21 at 20:14
< report >
One such case would be in "One Night, Hot Springs" where languages simply get added over time and everything else stays the same.
This is one of those cases where every new release supersedes the previous one, so an ability to flag superseded releases and a button to filter them out would work great for this particular scenario without any need to contract or expand releases.
#35 by donkeyskin
2021-04-21 at 21:21
< report >I'm starting to believe that maybe, we should only show the latest release that supersedes all the previous ones (& maybe with the original release date, not the newest one). When you click on its release page, it should show a proper History of the release (something similar to link ) which shows the individual dates when languages got added or other updates happened (screen resolution etc). These superseded releases maybe won't show on the visual novel page in order to avoid cluttering it, but only in its release page & when you use the search bar.Last modified on 2021-04-21 at 21:23
#36 by eacil
2021-04-21 at 22:25
< report >
An alternative that hasn't been brought up yet in this context: tracking which releases have been "superseded" by others. That way all the superseded releases can be hidden by default, which would also clean up the list. But the list still wouldn't be useful in expanded mode.
Do that. There will be only one release by language and should therefore take care of the whole problem. When you click on it, programmatically merge them together so it looks like link (the only sane way to display the info imo). Depending on which release you click to land on that page, highlight the dates. It's your solution A with your data model kept as it is.
Better, allow users to create a release with multiple languages (while still adding the releases to the database separately, like you want). You could even be able to track when a new producer is added with new languages though you wouldn't be able to pinpoint which language they are linked to if there are multiple languages.
It would spare users to have to clone the releases and lose information in-between, making them consistent, given that a release shouldn't have different data besides the languages and producers, right? If that's the case, I guess you would have to add that too but the point is to have a common frame to add those languages updated releases in one go.

Also, if you want those releases to highlight the fact that they are "incomplete" when showing up in search results (i.e. they have more languages than what you see), give them a special status like kumiko1 said. Those releases will already have a "special status" if you want to be able to group them together anyway.Last modified on 2021-04-22 at 03:24
#37 by donkeyskin
2021-04-22 at 00:26
< report >How about something like this? link
It's a sort of a mix of #1's examples A & C.
In this way, it is aesthetically nice like example A, languages could still be searched with CTRL + F without having the need for filters or tabs at the top.

- Language flags could be shown in two columns link the first one shows the original language release while the second one, separated a little bit, shows that those are the languages that were added later.
- Or maybe we could add to column B only the languages added in that particular release to visually show that it supersedes the previous one? link
Column B could be shown first: link

Clicking the release page would show release relations ('it supersedes this previous one') or a full superseding history. For example, if you click on the Vietnamese release, it would show you a link to the most up to date one superseding release (the French one) since it includes Vietnamese.Last modified on 2021-04-22 at 00:28
#38 by yorhel
2021-05-16 at 07:32
< report >Not really a solution to the problem I described in my initial post, but I just made the language sections collapsible. Your language visibility choices are remembered* across VNs, so this is a simple way to hide languages you're not interested in.

(* remembered in your browsers' local storage, so it won't transfer with your account. this implementation is subject to change, still trying out and see what works best)
#39 by naiohoras
2021-05-16 at 11:50
< report >eh, I've got no complain. my initial suggestion was to make the release languages as tabs so this is somewhat similar to that. though it would be nice to have an option to load it to our account since I always open my browser in private mode, that means if I exit my browser I need to collapse the releases again, every time.

that aside, I realized that languages with same publisher get grouped into one row like One Night, Hot Springs, but it's still devided into three rows in 9 -Nine- Haruiro Harukoi Harunokaze. I'm guessing it's because there is at least one different publisher in the language, making it inherit the old system.
shouldn't you just grouped it by producer instead altogether? it's still devided into three rows but I believe it's more consistent that way considering how it looks in One Night, Hot Springs. it will be something like this:
[jp][en][ch]Denpasoft&Sekai project
[ch]Yingkong Hanhuazu

P.S. collapsible tag tree when?
#40 by parap
2021-05-17 at 08:53
< report >#38 Nice addition, thanks. But I would suggest to collapse all of them by default. This will make it more discoverable because users can open the languages they are interested in.
#41 by beliar
2021-05-17 at 15:54
< report >
But I would suggest to collapse all of them by default.
Please no. That's a horrible suggestion, especially as your preferences are only saved in the browser cache. Hiding what you don't want to see is infinitely preferable to opening what you want to see.
#42 by parap
2021-05-17 at 16:24
< report >When users click on any section of the VN page (for example on "Reviews") they're literately opening what they want to see. It follows a basic interaction design principle called "progressive disclosure" which obviously has exceptions but in general is considered a good design practice.

On the worst scenario (where the browser local storage won't save your preferences) every release group would work exactly like a tab or a link.

I could agree that not hiding by default is a safer option (is an added feature to the current design) but its low discoverability would make that very few people use this.

The fundamental issue is knowing if the common scenario when a user goes to the VN page is to look for releases. I really don't know, but I would bet that having all releases open by default is not something useful for most of them (or for most of their scenarios) and, for example, they may be more interested in the User Stats or Screenshots section.
#43 by beliar
2021-05-17 at 16:29
< report >Let's say I strongly disagree. I see very few people who wouldn't want to see majority of the language options, and even those who hide some language will most likely do that on a temporary basis. It's just a good tone to keep all languages open by default and let the user sort themselves out. A surplus of information is better than a lack of information. This would be even more relevant to new users who might accidentally think that a release in a certain language is missing, and would try to add it, if the tabs are collapsed.
#44 by eacil
2021-05-17 at 20:27
< report >There should be an original language flag for collapsing. Coz I hid every language but English and Japanese but I just came back from a Chinese VN and the releases were hidden (makes sense). This is not the expected behavior. I unfolded the Chinese releases but now it will show again on pages where this is a unrelated language I don't care about. Meaning I have to refold them once I leave the page.


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