Play length edits

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#51 by bcirno
2021-06-07 at 17:25
< report >More like the ones bringing average up.
Wrong length needs to be fixed.
Gatekeeping people from vn by overestimating length is wrong.
The world needs to know the harsh truth.
#52 by mrkew
2021-06-07 at 17:32
< report >
More like the ones bringing average up
You realize that up means faster reading and down means slower reading, right. Ah, again with the reading comprehension of speedreaders.
#53 by bcirno
2021-06-07 at 17:51
< report >
You realize that up means faster reading and down means slower reading, right. Ah, again with the reading comprehension of speedreaders.
You mean how putting fast with slow together gives you average???
Literally destroying your arguments with facts and logic here, just give up at this point.
You can't win.
#54 by mrkew
2021-06-07 at 17:55
< report >Are we starting with le epic troll now? I've been talking about the average the whole time. The average is 500. The average gets you 63 hours. You've been calling the average slow the whole time. You only want to accept fast.
#55 by bcirno
2021-06-07 at 18:05
< report >Obviously, average is 28 hours according to natives on egs, your 60 hours automode shit is just a shitpost at this point.
I have facts.
I have statistics.
Do you hate statistics this much?
All you have is your abstract calculations and wasted time, but they're only correct in your mind.
Stop denying reality.
No need to feel insecure about reading slowly, just don't force your standards like some kinda of gold rule on everyone else, jsl-kun.
#56 by mrkew
2021-06-07 at 18:10
< report >We already established that EGS is useless for accurate length, but you probably skipped that part while you were "reading".
#57 by bcirno
2021-06-07 at 18:24
< report >You mean YOU decided it's inaccurate because you read too slow.
And now trying to justify your speed with slow-ass automode.
#58 by mrkew
2021-06-07 at 18:44
< report >
slow-ass automode
Automode set to reading speed of average japanese native vs. a bunch of troglodytes who skip voices and claim they completed the whole thing.
Before I leave you, check out the EGS page for Rance 10. It's 100 hours. That's all you need to know for the プレイ時間中央値 on EGS.Last modified on 2021-06-07 at 18:44
#59 by tremmy
2021-06-07 at 18:48
< report >Lets be honest, anyone reading yuzuge doesn't care how long it is.
#60 by phantomjs
2021-06-07 at 22:14
< report >@bciron

EGS mega fanboys like you were exactly the reason I started protesting against the use of their playtime votes as evidence for setting Visual Novel length here in VNDB (Visual Novel DATABASE)

EGS uses a voting style system for playtime. Whether you like it or not, it's a fact that this style is subjective. VNDB's current length definition calls for someone to finish reading all routes of a Visual Novel before setting the length, and it suggests for an objective length setting.

Using EGS data as absolute facts isn't good at all due to it's subjective nature and is all over the place:

1) It's filled with ,imo at least, troll votes. Sanoba Switch has 11 person who supposedly read the VN in >50 hours (1-100+ hours, 3-71-100 hours, 7- 51-70 hours). This data is counteracted by 10 who supposedly read it in under 10 hours (lol). I don't see how this isn't troll votes and those >50 hours are, I don't know, objectively inaccurate data or something. How useful are data like these for setting an objective length of a VN here?

2) Since you like using the avg EGS time so much, you want to set the reading time for Sanoba Witch to mid? EGS avg time is 28 hours after all. the largest portion of votes is for the mid 10-30 hours length too

3) The avg EGS playtime for a lot of Visual Novels such as Grisaia, Rewrite, Hoshi Ori Yume Mirai. Golden Loveriche etc, with established VNDB length time are a lot lower. Since you seems to trust EGS's avg playstime votes so much, how about we change those 'very long' (rewrite, Hoshi Ori) to 'long' , and 'long' (Loveriche) to 'mid' ?

I did a quick calculation of Grisaia's EGS playtime votes (disclaimer: I didn't double check whether I made mistakes in the calculation or not) and I got 35.3 hours. I used the upper spectrum numbers in each column (100 in the 71-100 hours column, 70 in the 51-70 hours column, and so on). If I used the lower spectrum number, I think the result might very well be <30 hours. So what do you say EGS fanboy? How about we change Fruit of Grisaia to Mid length?!?

Take a good look at post #19 and #25 again. He is trying to provide objective data to help determine the length here at Visual Novel DATABASE. He even agrees with you that he did not believe it takes >50 hours to complete Sanoba Witch. What he and I are trying to do her is to provide with objective data of a VN's length instead of replying on EGS's data where voters could had alt the H-scenes, could had skipped side roytes completely, could had listen to most / all voices lines completely to soak it in (like myself) or could had skipped those lines once they read the dialogue, and so on. I don't think this provides readers with accurate data on a VN's length at all

You sound just like this guy who's trying to force their opinion down other's throats / thinks their way of thinking = the absolute (or best) way. Gentle plea - pls stop doing that.

Thank youLast modified on 2021-06-07 at 22:22
#61 by mutsuki
2021-06-07 at 23:13
< report >why don't we set it to "short" so that everyone's equally unhappy?

that's what they did when naming utc
#62 by diabloryuzaki
2021-06-07 at 23:38
< report >#55
"All you have is your abstract calculations and wasted time, but they're only correct in your mind."

Then show us your realist calculation please because I'm curious to it and maybe your calculation can be the base to length in this database
#63 by bcirno
2021-06-08 at 02:38
< report >#58
Nothing wrong with skipping voices, no need to feel so insecure just because you can't read ahead of voice lines, you'll get it over time, don't worry so much!
Funny how you keep bringing reading speed but meaning LISTENING speed by mentioning letting every voice to play lol.
#60
VNDB's current length definition calls for someone to finish reading all routes of a Visual Novel before setting the length, and it suggests for an objective length setting.
How it's objective if you rely literally on single person time and reading speed here? Relying on automode play just makes it completely pointless and useless. Your objective length turns whole db into shitshow with sw and muramasa being in the same length category. If you're willing to record automode for every vn in db (not like it's gonna work for gameplay vn lol) and put exact number of hours (not range), then sure, go on.

It's filled with ,imo at least, troll votes. Sanoba Switch has 11 person who supposedly read the VN in >50 hours (1-100+ hours, 3-71-100 hours, 7- 51-70 hours). This data is counteracted by 10 who supposedly read it in under 10 hours (lol). I don't see how this isn't troll votes and those >50 hours are, I don't know, objectively inaccurate data or something. How useful are data like these for setting an objective length of a VN here?
Just imagine someone discovering sanoba witch with 50+ hours, buying it and ended up disappointed after finishing in 35.

Tag votes on vndb also filled with bullshit and not objective all the time, neither current length system is objective.
you want to set the reading time for Sanoba Witch to mid?
Would love to, but 30-50 sounds somewhat okay, even if it is a big stretch by itself. 30-40 would be perfect, too bad vndb has no such option.
I'm not debating against current 30-50 value, but against people trying to slap 50+ hours and vndb length system.

Grisaia, Rewrite, Hoshi Ori Yume Mirai.
Didn't use app to calculate my playtime back when i read grisaia, didn't read rewrite, so can't judge how correct egs is here.
And again, 10-30 and 30-50 being two steps without 30-40 in-between is just plain stupid here. 5 hour step would be much better tho.
What he and I are trying to do her is to provide with objective data of a VN's length instead of replying on EGS's data
I don't want to rely solely on egs either, what we need is to change "length" to "estimated length" and collect input from multiple readers.
Yes, you need to deal with troll voters claiming they're finished muramasa in 10 hours, but mods already dealing with editor wars and user reports, not much difference here. Even HowLongToBeat looks more reliable than vndb now.

could had skipped side roytes completely, could had listen to most / all voices lines completely to soak it in (like myself) or could had skipped those lines once they read the dialogue
Yes, you're correct here. Doesn't mean we can't adapt mix of egs and how long to beat system here, why not? Show both average for people listening to every voice line, show average for people not listening to every single line and skimming h-scenes from time to time. Who said you need exact value and not just range/few values for different reading styles based on multiple input?


Whole reason we're having this long pointless conversation is the current flawed vndb system.
With vote system each one of us would put their vote silently and would fuck off without shitposting walls of text.

thinks their way of thinking = the absolute (or best) way
Oh yeah, i totally do by suggesting letting multiple people decide hours value instead of one single snail reader with autoplay record or steam afk timer forcing their opinion as the only absolute correct way of thinking and way of reading.
#62 Fuck da math.
#64 by encrypted12345
2021-06-08 at 03:39
< report >@59 vndb being what it is, I'm actually surprised this type of controversy is not more common. That said, vndb usually does lock edits to the most popular pages, including edits to length, so maybe there were some really big arguments in the past that I'm not aware of.
#65 by mrkew
2021-06-08 at 06:40
< report >
Nothing wrong with skipping voices, no need to feel so insecure just because you can't read ahead of voice lines
Voice lines are not there to be read. That's what EOPs do, because they can't understand the voice. They can't rest their eyes and fully listen and appreciate the work of the seiyuu. Surely, you are not an EOP desperately pretending to fit in. Or are you? Or even worse, a filthy light novel reader, who doesn't understand that VNs are more than simple text, otherwise you could simply open the whole thing in a goddamn notepad.

How it's objective if you rely literally on single person time and reading speed here
letting multiple people decide hours value instead of one single snail reader
You probably missed this while speedreading, but my read time does not figure in this whatsoever. I wasn't reading it when it was recording, as I'd already read it previously. Hell, I was sleeping half the time it was recording. What does figure in this is the average reading speed of the people of Japan. You know, the people from that country which made this game and who speak this mysterious moon rune language. Are you still getting this, or are you lost because it has too many words?
#66 by acereishiki
2021-06-08 at 06:59
< report >This is hilarious.
#67 by mrkew
2021-06-08 at 07:08
< report >Care to expand on that, as you were part of the edit war which led to the lockdown?
#68 by phantomjs
2021-06-08 at 07:25
< report >#bciron
Nothing wrong with skipping voices
It matters in context of this thread. Going by VNDB's current definition of length, one could say there's nothing right in skipping voices in Visual Novels either

How it's objective if you rely literally on single person time and reading speed here? Relying on automode play just makes it completely pointless and useless. Your objective length turns whole db into shitshow with sw and muramasa being in the same length category. If you're willing to record automode for every vn in db (not like it's gonna work for gameplay vn lol) and put exact number of hours (not range), then sure, go on

mrkew's method, while impractical to implement, is a very objective way to define how much content is there in a Visual Novel. It provides a systematic way of letting know of the objective length of a Visual Novel. An effective analogy of this method is GSMarena's handphone battery tests. The tests consists of an hour of voice calls, an hour of offline video playback, and an hour of Wi-Fi browsing per day, with the rest of the 24 hours taken up by standby power consumption. Is it how most users use their handphones? Not even close, but by using the same set of testing methodology for every handphone they tests, they provide users with objective and useful data on how long they can expect a handphone's battery to last relatively. Using my suggestion and maybe a easier alt but similar solution to mrkew's recording will provide similar results. How is that not objective?

I (and I'm sure I speak for mrkew as well) am definitely not suggesting this method should or must be the de facto standard of setting the length of entries here, just that it is very useful and, in our opinion, conclusive objective Visual Novel length data.

I don't want to rely solely on egs either, what we need is to change "length" to "estimated length" and collect input from multiple readers.
Yes, you need to deal with troll voters claiming they're finished muramasa in 10 hours, but mods already dealing with editor wars and user reports, not much difference here. Even HowLongToBeat looks more reliable than vndb now.
Yes, you're correct here. Doesn't mean we can't adapt mix of egs and how long to beat system here, why not? Show both average for people listening to every voice line, show average for people not listening to every single line and skimming h-scenes from time to time. Who said you need exact value and not just range/few values for different reading styles based on multiple input?
Dude, you had been very clearly relying solely on EGS and bashing / dismissing mrkew's recording data throughout the entire thread. Now you are talking about mixing from multiple sources? And what do you mean by mixing EGS and HowLongToBeat systems? Both of them have almost identical length voting system, except HLTB lets users choose the exact numbers and have expanded categories. Also, you cannot mix their systems with VDNB's. The current one here imply giving and objective answer, while EGS /HLTB systems are subjective ones

Oh yeah, i totally do by suggesting letting multiple people decide hours value instead of one single snail reader with autoplay record or steam afk timer forcing their opinion as the only absolute correct way of thinking and way of reading.

God, do you realised what you are saying? By doing this, a lot of Visual Novels could be between 2 or even 3 length categories (such as Fruit of Grisaia). There will potentially be constant changes and arguments on all sides. This is exactly why I'm advocating for changes and usage of method such as mrkew's recording as objective data, and are against people like you who uses EGS's avg playtime votes as evidence of a Visual Novel's lengthLast modified on 2021-06-08 at 07:28
#69 by bcirno
2021-06-08 at 10:36
< report >#65,
Voice lines are not there to be read. That's what EOPs do, because they can't understand the voice. They can't rest their eyes and fully listen and appreciate the work of the seiyuu. Surely, you are not an EOP desperately pretending to fit in. Or are you? Or even worse, a filthy light novel reader, who doesn't understand that VNs are more than simple text, otherwise you could simply open the whole thing in a goddamn notepad.
All natives on egs clearly skipping voices so this is only correct way to read as in getting true reading experience approved and acclaimed by native readers aka true eroge enjoyers and not jsl or jtl or even jfl in worst case scenario.
Just admit how much you want to read ahead of voices without waiting for them to play, but can't do this yet and move on.

#68,
is a very objective way to define how much content is there in a Visual Novel.
No
first you don't read every line with equal speed in every game
second you have repetitions
third gameplay vns
The tests consists of an hour of voice calls, an hour of offline video playback, and an hour of Wi-Fi browsing per day, with the rest of the 24 hours taken up by standby power consumption. Is it how most users use their handphones? Not even close, but by using the same set of testing methodology for every handphone they tests, they provide users with objective and useful data on how long they can expect a handphone's battery to last relatively. Using my suggestion and maybe a easier alt but similar solution to mrkew's recording will provide similar results.
Doesn't mean same kind of test needs to be applied to vns.
Dude, you had been very clearly relying solely on EGS
Egs means statistic along with my personal experience and experience of people i know. Not like experience of people who read things means something nowadays, lol.

The current one here imply giving and objective answer, while EGS /HLTB systems are subjective ones
Objective answer from people who didn't even read the game and just run some kind of script to calculate time, for example? Yeah, very reliable. Totally no arguments over people who totally read game putting their totally objective time in yeeeeah

Just how tags and tag votes are so fucking objective nowayas yeeeeah suuuure
God, do you realised what you are saying? By doing this, a lot of Visual Novels could be between 2 or even 3 length categories (such as Fruit of Grisaia). There will potentially be constant changes and arguments on all sides.
Arguments? Just put your vote and go away. Nothing to discuss.
Constant changes? Maybe just in very beginning after vn release/new system implementation and whenever tl released with everyone voting, shouldn't be many changes after a while.
#70 by mrkew
2021-06-08 at 10:52
< report >
Just admit how much you want to read ahead of voices without waiting for them to play, but can't do this yet and move on.
You really need to think through your posts more. The heroine voices are at like 200 moji per minute. If someone was reading slower than that, suppose 150/min, then the whole game would take at least 120 hours. Hope you realized your foolishness with this. Not only are you wasting the most expensive part of VNs, and what distincts it heavily from the other "reading" media, in this case you also ignore the 演出. A character in a yuzusoft game typically changes their facial expression and sprite positioning at least once or twice per line. You completely ignore the characters on the screen, how they look, what they're doing, how they sound. TEXT TEXT TEXT. LN readers, truly pathetic.
#71 by mrkew
2021-06-08 at 10:54
< report >Also, I found this gem v22783.26
Care to explain why you wanted to change the length of musicus to 60 hours based on your reading experience, when EGS lists it as 25 hours long?
#72 by bcirno
2021-06-08 at 11:40
< report >Wow, now YOU're referencing to egs while trying to bash and dismiss my personal experience??? Musicus is really deep and thought-provoking experience, i spent a lot of time thinking about musicus philosophy while reading, so totally should be reflected in db
The heroine voices are at like 200 moji per minute

No one cares about your emojis math here
then the whole game would take at least 120 hours.
LMAO just imagine spending 120 hours to read a single yuzuge
Not only are you wasting the most expensive part of VNs, and what distincts it heavily from the other "reading" media, in this case you also ignore the 演出.
Sugoi aniki your random words in your post looks totally not cringy and shows how good your japanese skill is!!11
You completely ignore the characters on the screen, how they look, what they're doing
This is part of true authentic jp experience, you can't say you finished a vn unless you read it like a native reader while skipping animations and voice acting with side routes of characters you don't like.
#73 by phantomjs
2021-06-08 at 11:53
< report >
All natives on egs clearly skipping voices so this is only correct way to read as in getting true reading experience approved and acclaimed by native readers aka true eroge enjoyers and not jsl or jtl or even jfl in worst case scenario.
You have got to be kidding me right? You ARE kidding me right????......
No
first you don't read every line with equal speed in every game
second you have repetitions
third gameplay vns
Yes
Agree that you don't read everyline with equal speed in every VN. Neither does most people. That is why a system is needed as a baseline so there can actually be some sort useful objective data present instead of people like you telling others skipping voices in a VN is the correct way to get a authentic reading experience just because natives readers do th same thing (serious facepalm...)

Doesn't mean same kind of test needs to be applied to vns.
It would provide very good data for an objective answer. Or what, just ignore everything else anyone says and take everything in EGS as gospel?
No, just hell no.
Objective answer from people who didn't even read the game and just run some kind of script to calculate time, for example? Yeah, very reliable. Totally no arguments over people who totally read game putting their totally objective time in yeeeeah

VNDB's current definition is time it takes to finish all endings (a.k.a routes), and the site doesn't uses a voting system for length, but a single one. This implies that all routes should be finished without skipping anything. Nowhere was any indication that it should be a reliable source of an avg reader's reading time. Like mrkew said, if you want that, go to EGS or HowLongToBeat or something.
Arguments? Just put your vote and go away. Nothing to discuss.
Constant changes? Maybe just in very beginning after vn release/new system implementation and whenever tl released with everyone voting, shouldn't be many changes after a while.
This only applies if the current length definition gets change, which is probably impossible (if Yorhel or the 2 mods want to do it, they would had done so a long time ago)
Thus, I think some guidelines should at least be in place against people like you -_-
#74 by phantomjs
2021-06-08 at 11:58
< report >
Wow, now YOU're referencing to egs while trying to bash and dismiss my personal experience??? Musicus is really deep and thought-provoking experience, i spent a lot of time thinking about musicus philosophy while reading, so totally should be reflected in db
So just because you think it's deep and thought provoking, and you spent >50 hours on it, hence it should be 'very long' and EGS data should be ignored. However, in the case of Sanoba Witch, EGS's data is gospel as your previous posts in the thread seems to suggest. Oh sorry, YOUR word is Gospel and EGS's data should be use as facts when you feel like it. Sorry my Lord!....

K, I think you win this time. Not sure I have the stamina to cont battling a Troll (been's a long time since I did this).

Signing out (?)Last modified on 2021-06-08 at 12:15
#75 by bcirno
2021-06-08 at 12:16
< report >And this is why we need loli communism.

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