The recently implemented machine TL flag...

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#1 by bathhouse-owner
2021-05-15 at 05:31
< report >Making a thread since I didn't see one.

Are you completely sure that you want to include fanmade MTLs in the database? I mean, sure, I see it being done for official releases for database completeness, but anyone can put a game through DeepL and call it an "acceptable translation". I'm not sure if giving exposure to these people is the right thing.
#2 by beliar
2021-05-15 at 09:54
< report >Let me repost my own reasoning from another thread why I supported the creation of this tag:

1. We currently allow to add commercially published machine translations to the db, but disallow fan 'efforts'. It has always been strange to me that we somehow put more legitimacy on the commercial work, than that of the individuals. In fact, commercial MTs are universally worse, as the companies that publish them, like SakuraGame publish pure machine outputs, and don't even bother to edit them into a readable state, like most fan-MTs.

2. There are already plenty of machine translations in the db that we have no idea about. That is a fact. If the 'translator' never 'fesses, it's pretty much impossible to tell the difference between a well edited MT and a crappy or mediocre hand made translation. There are plenty of English translators, like George Henry Shaft or Rattan Man Translations that can be suspected of using MTs, but as the saying in my country goes "It's not a thief if you didn't catch him". And you can bet the numbers are even more atrocious among the other languages like Russian or Spanish.

So, I see where the users that say "You allow plenty of crappy translations, but the moment a readable translation is revealed to be based on the MT, you remove it" are coming from.

3. Currently a user might find an MT that we have removed from the db, and say "Oh great, this game has a translation, even though it's not on vndb. Let's go play it". Adding the MTs to the db would allow us to warn the users that there IS a 'translation', but it's an MT. So, they would know that they should play it with no expectations regarding the quality.

And sure, anyone can put the text through DeepL, but not everyone edits the outcome. Majority of fan-MTs do receive some sort of editing. I only known only of nekoHen's patches that are pure machine output, and they are currently not in the db - only his interface patches are. I'm still inclined not to allow fan-made pure machine output to be included, but I suppose that can be discussed.
#3 by iwannarategames
2021-05-15 at 12:17
< report >So MTLs can be listed on the page for the VN but don't have release pages? That's actually a pretty good idea LOL.
#4 by beliar
2021-05-15 at 12:37
< report >What do you mean 'they don't have release pages'? They do. It's just that they are in a darker colour, and the MT 'translators' are not listed on the VN page, even if you add them to the release. They also do not appear in a search by language.
#5 by iwannarategames
2021-05-15 at 12:47
< report >I kept clicking on the MTL releases for the SakuraGame VNs and consistently got nothing at all. I'll check again.

EDIT: It works as long as you click on the name of the release and not 'machine translation' tag.Last modified on 2021-05-15 at 12:49
#6 by beliar
2021-05-15 at 12:54
< report >Well, I mean, of course. Clicking on the 'unofficial patch' suffix for any other release would also not open it. You have to click of the title. It's the fact that the title is now the same colour as the suffix that probably confused you. It would be mighty silly not to create the release pages for the MT releases, as you would be missing lots of information.
#7 by npzmzfg
2021-05-15 at 13:03
< report >Will there be a dedicated thread for reporting MTL releases, so that they can get flagged, or should we just post them in the How to Edit thread once you're done with your current sweep?
#8 by shinytentacool
2021-05-15 at 13:08
< report >If mtls don't appear if you search by language that doesn't make much sense to me. That's actually less informative than before. I would put in the choice
#9 by beliar
2021-05-15 at 13:14
< report >
Will there be a dedicated thread for reporting MTL releases, so that they can get flagged
Seems like a good idea. I'll probably go and create one.

That's actually less informative than before.
Not sure how it's 'less informative'.... I personally don't see a problem, but you can always try to convince Yorhel otherwise.
#10 by shinytentacool
2021-05-15 at 13:22
< report >Well, assuming that some prior existing releases will be converted into mtl releases, then that means that stuff that used to show up in a search by language no longer will. Personally i don't care if it's mtl or not, so it'd be nice to be able to see everything
#11 by beliar
2021-05-15 at 13:48
< report >
that some prior existing releases will be converted into mtl releases
Might happen in the future, if we find out that a release in the db was actually an MTL. However, currently all machine translations should have been deleted, so you simply won't see any difference in the search when we restore them.
#12 by npzmzfg
2021-05-15 at 13:52
< report >It is already happening with the official releases that are getting flagged as MTL: See e.g. link and link

Personally I don't think that language search results should include MTL releases by default, but it would probably be useful with a search option for that.Last modified on 2021-05-15 at 13:54
#13 by tremmy
2021-05-15 at 14:38
< report >If someone were to write a review based off an MTL release, would that review be flagged as well?
#14 by beliar
2021-05-15 at 14:43
< report >Not sure if serious, but obviously not. Reviews are highly subjective. If the guy enjoyed a vn despite the crappy translation, more the power to him. Though of course, mentioning that the review is based on an existing mtl would be a good form. However, only crappy reviews and not reviews based on crappy games are flagged.
#15 by mrkew
2021-05-15 at 15:38
< report >They are highly subjective, but it's an objective fact that using MTL will severely twist the meaning of the game, making accurate comprehension of the plot and characters much less likely.
#16 by bcirno
2021-05-15 at 15:48
< report >just check egs reviews and not vndb then, if you want to avoid mtlers and n6 hookcucking """jops"""
#17 by yorhel
2021-05-16 at 07:29
< report >
If mtls don't appear if you search by language that doesn't make much sense to me.
VNDB has never catered to people looking for MTLs, this flag isn't going to change that. I'm not likely going to add an MTL option to the main VN search (that involves caching and would be annoying to implement), but I may add such an option to the release search at some point.
#18 by sanahtlig
2021-05-19 at 00:54
< report >Are you going to make a page where you define what a 'machine translation' is in VNDB and the criteria for inclusion in the database? As far as I can tell, the definition being used is not intuitive: official releases include raw and edited MTLs (prioritizing completeness), while fan releases include only edited MTLs (prioritizing "usefulness"). Ideally, there would be a hyperlink in the release page to a MTL tag that would define it and list all releases with the tag, perhaps sub-divided by official and unofficial (since the inclusion criteria are different). Users could supplement this on the release page with release-specific details (e.g., what program was used, whether the MTL is edited or raw).Last modified on 2021-05-19 at 01:12

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