Reporting MTL releases
|#226 by Daniale28|
2022-05-14 at 07:01
|< report >"which a machine does not commit" "how can a machine translation use a wrong verbal tense?" You might think that but I've seen Google Translate and DeepL eat accents out of nowhere (in words like "está" it end up as "esta", and so on). Accents are just put out randomly and without any regard so that made me think about it.|
"nostradame" first and then "nostradamus" And a human translator also wouldn't do this because it's literally on the same line or page. Thats why i'm assuming about it.
"Uno tras otro" instead of "una tras otra" This one is actually wrong since by default it should be "una tras otra" in that context, same as if it instead of "gente" it said "personas". I probably don't have explain this one.
Also "el mismo está escrito en una formato de poema" I actually didn't even see this error to be honest, I thought the only suspicious thing in that screenshot was the weird naming.
What I'm actually more concerned about are these type of phrases link
Ill confess that I haven't read or translated much things at all, but stuff like this that has no flow at all is very suspicious (not counting the grammatical mistakes because that's a different issue, im referring to the redaction). The redaction is absurdly "mechanical" and no, Japanese>Spanish translations are not like this.
It's not just an editing issue, because that wouldn't change the fact the translator is probably just postediting machine translation results (At least that's how the reading aspect of this particular patch feels like) It's the same issue as with that Sayooshi english tl, where even if there was a good editor it wouldn't change the fact the initial translation is made by someone that doesn't actually know japanese or is just a edited MTL.Last modified on 2022-05-14 at 07:11
|#227 by shukumeiteki1|
2022-05-14 at 07:13
|< report >"como tu kouhai, te daré una gran sensación que difícilmente olvidaras por un buen tiempo como junior... chu chu rero rero nng" <------- this is the one that I could take to be MTLd, maybe... I'm not really sure tbh, junior and kouhai are the same, why are they using the same word and in that way? |
The whole sentence smells like machine translation.
The chu chu and rero rero i guess they mean kiss kiss and lick, not sure really since i didnt read it so I'm just guessing but it probably comes from "ちゅう" and "ペロペロ" and the "nng" just a random moan sound (?) (like she is saying "as your junior im going to fuck you and you wont forget it for a good while, *kiss* *kiss* *lick lick* insert random moan sound"
This is something that with basic knowledge of japanese you can translate but a machine translator would never pick it up since the writers always cut the words, like the write ”ちゅぅぅ" ペロ...ペロ...んんん。”
some stupid crap like that (that you always see in vns... )
Again, not sure but probably...Last modified on 2022-05-14 at 07:19
|#228 by Daniale28|
2022-05-14 at 07:19
|< report >The sounds are not the issue, im referring to the rest of the sentenceLast modified on 2022-05-14 at 07:26|
|#229 by shukumeiteki1|
2022-05-14 at 07:24
|< report >Did you understand my reply and why I'm saying that that particular sentence could be machine translated?|
It is clearly an issue since THOSE ARE things that a machine translation would not properly translate (and a real translator should easily do) ... and not the "put random verbal tenses or accents", and also the junior and kouhai.
I will stop here.Last modified on 2022-05-14 at 07:26
|#230 by Daniale28|
2022-05-14 at 07:29
|< report >I misread that part. Im just more concerned about that usage of junior/kouhai and that "dificilmente olvidarás"|
|#231 by Daniale28|
2022-05-14 at 07:33
|< report >Also i should clear this up, but maybe the machine translation was not made from Japanese to Spanish. What im trying to say is that it was MTLd from Japanese to English, and then that English "result" was translated manually to Spanish. Thats the only thing I can come up for how "mechanical" and how literally translated the script redaction is (It would also explain why that sentence feels that way)Last modified on 2022-05-14 at 07:33|
|#232 by anothervnreader|
2022-05-14 at 14:47
|< report >Felt weird playing this. Complicated convos are well translated and sometimes found it enjoyful. However, chitchat moments like the ones you showed are weird translated and they tend to commit basic mistakes. It's like, they had someone competent to do complicated parts, and everything else was handled differently.|
|#233 by Daniale28|
2022-05-14 at 17:33
|< report >I'll be on the look out for more MTL like sentences and parts where sounds are not properly translated. Also, I think this is interesting to see.|
while not related to TnS, it is related to another one of their "JP>ES" TLs. If I understand correctly, the translation basically cuts out entire sentences and makes up the rest? Haven't played any Science;Adventure games but I assume they're easier to translate than a Sca-DI script. That they couldn't translate that one properly puts in doubt the "legitimacy" of this particular translation.
And they seem to have this tendency of lying they're translating from Japanese, when in reality they're just translating from English with Little to no proofread. I saw that happened with C;H, sothis team is no stranger to trying to pass up English>Spanish TLs and edited MTLs as "Japanese>Spanish" TLs.
Just that tendency to lie about the source language of their TLs is suspicious enough and makes me doubt about their Japanese "knowledge" (That, along with the mechanical and English like structure I mentioned in screenshots posted)
|#234 by Daniale28|
2022-05-14 at 18:25
|< report >More examples|
link No comma at all plus clanky and suspicious redaction
link More "untranslated" noises
link That feels like a translation of "That sounds very dangerous" and you wouldn't get this translation if you were translating from Japanese. You only get that when translating from English. Also more untranslated noises
link link More suspicious redaction.
link link Suspicious redactionLast modified on 2022-05-14 at 18:41
|#235 by Daniale28|
2022-05-14 at 18:40
|< report >link Untranslated noises and this feels like a translation of "Be more gentle" in English|
link link Another sentence that feels translated from English. Second one feels like a literal translation from "hit the ground". No one says "golpeemos el suelo" when talking about people falling into the ground
link That "trabajemos" is concerning. Also, while not exactly a sign of MTL, those [ ] inside the other [ ] are strange
|#236 by 4digitmen|
2022-05-14 at 20:21
|< report >I'm gonna be honest, while I'm all for CGT bashing, unless they say it is you won't be able to prove without a doubt that it's MTL.|
It's just translated by someone with a very poor sense of grammar, writing ability, translation ability, and japanese ability. It is then edited and proofread by people with likely the same level of ability or even worse, or people who could care less about the final product.
The point is, if you want to prove MTL, you're gonna have to prove that with screenshots where the MTL (DeepL or Google) matches up with the translation. And it has to happen multiple times, in places where it shouldn't happen (where the result is obviously wrong or mistranslated in the same way as the MTL counterpart). MTL editing jobs, though, are hard to prove precisely because the result won't be the same.Last modified on 2022-05-14 at 20:23
|#237 by Daniale28|
2022-05-14 at 21:09
|< report >"very poor sense of japanese ability" Doesn't that already exposes it as a MTL since the translator doesn't know japanese? also, as you mentioned, it could be heavily edited to cover up for the MTL usage.|
"if you want to prove MTL, you're gonna have to prove that with screenshots where the MTL (DeepL or Google) matches up with the translation" That's good idea but i don't have the japanese script, i'm not sure if its even worth to compare when the text already reads extremely mechanical and unnatural like this link
|#238 by 4digitmen|
2022-05-14 at 21:13
|< report >|
Doesn't that already exposes it as a MTL since the translator doesn't know japanese?No, because bad translations that are done from people who copy and paste a dictionary and read tae kim for grammar are not MTL. Again, in order to prove MTL, you need actual proof instead of "this reads kinda bad."
CGT releases are already properly labeled as being bad. If you want to prove that they're machine-translated, someone is gonna have to admit to it, or you're gonna have to find hard evidence of it.Last modified on 2022-05-14 at 21:14
|#239 by Daniale28|
2022-05-14 at 21:31
|< report >While i agree with you, how other way do you explain the wording and structure that feels traced from english? Those aren't things you get when copypasting from a dictionary/tae kim. It not just "it reads bad"|
Case in point, this example link Ill admit im not sure what the original japanese is, but in english this would be "that same night, after having sex in various ways with Kiyoshi, I made him swear I would *find* who that woman was". The issue here is that "encontraría" because it feels traced from that *find*, when in a non-literal/MTL translation it would be "descubriría". Sorry if im not explaining it well
|#240 by Daniale28|
2022-05-14 at 21:39
|< report >These things seem silly but if you were translating with dictionaries, u wouldn't really get this structure while wording, you would get something made up more likely or something more liberal. As I mentioned earlier, im not saying its a japanese>spanish mtl, but rather a japanese>english mtl script that was later cleaned up and "hand translated" into spanish (and in a very literal way). Actual japanese-spanish tls, or even exclusively dictionary made translations, don't have this lack of flow, literal wording, and traced words from English.|
|#241 by 4digitmen|
2022-05-14 at 21:44
|< report >|
While i agree with you, how other way do you explain the wording and structure that feels traced from english?I think you're saying that you think it was MTLed from an English translation, but no such translation exists. Tsui no Sora doesn't have an English translation to MTL from.
|#242 by Daniale28|
2022-05-14 at 21:47
|< report >Of course, no EN translation exists. Read my other comment (basically Japanese, then MTLd in English with deepl and then translated in Spanish)|
|#243 by shukumeiteki1|
2022-05-14 at 21:49
|< report >I agree with @4digitmen on what he is saying and so far I saw one example of the translation being sketchy, the rest are all conjetures or just poorly edited and stiff translations, nothing else.|
People have been picking this translation group for a while now (there is clearly a dispute going on behind this) and funny enough they've put muramasa as mtl'd link for example and the novel is not even out lol (such a bad idea to let users do this)
Using this as evidence link does nothing but harm your arguments, "this translation is bad, it cuts x stuff, it has this bad thing" blah blah, just prove it or dont say anything, specially don't quote a third random user in a discord chat claiming things up randomly.
Tbf this was all allowed by yorhel (herelink), which is beyond me ... why would he back these claims when he doesn't even understand the language? But it's his site and he can do whatever he wants.
I do applaud Daniale28 for not just randomly tag the novel as mtl'd like the other dude did (sonicokyu) and trying to expose the translation.Last modified on 2022-05-14 at 21:51
|#244 by Daniale28|
2022-05-14 at 22:05
|< report >About that screenshot, i havent even played that game, i just thought it was interesting because its was mentioned by another translator. it wasnt evidence of nothing|
I also dont know about people pick up on that group, but as i mentioned a while ago, they seem to be lying about the source of their translations (C;H is claimed as being fully translated from japanese but apparently its proven to be mostly translated from english). Thats a sketchy practice and harms any credibility they could have, but you're right in that it doesn't really belong as an evidence (HOWEVER, if they knew japanese, they wouldn't have to lie about that. I haven't seen anyone else do that thing)
As for the other thing, if the translation isn't edited MTL and is just a word by word translation made with a dictionary like #238 mentioned... that doesn't change anything, honestly. that's still the same as an MTL since they don't know what they're reading and translating. Translating an entire game with a dictionary and tae kim is not knowing japanese. Its basically a glorified MTL.Last modified on 2022-05-14 at 22:09
|#245 by 4digitmen|
2022-05-14 at 22:13
|< report >|
why would he back these claims when he doesn't even understand the language?Because they're legitimate. It's also unfair to assume that he'd have to know the language to support the claims, as there's more than enough evidence for the claims made in each of their translations, all backed by native speakers who can actually write in Spanish, unlike CGT. All that is in that thread. The nail in the coffin was when a team member came in and tried to defend himself, but failed badly.
And please, don't try to imply they're getting "picked on" or waiving all their mistakes as if they don't exist. You can try to be "unbiased" all you like, but to everyone else you just look like you're defending CGT; and honestly, since you continue to pop up whenever their name gets mentioned, I can only assume that's what you're doing.
Just don't label this as MTL without conclusive proof, that's all. A bad translation does not equal a machine translation.
|#246 by Ezezin|
2022-05-14 at 22:49
|< report >Alright, time to step in.|
unless they say it is you won't be able to prove without a doubt that it's MTL.Some releases marked as MTL don't have this "hard proof" you talk about. Most translators won't say that they used MTL, but in most cases they are still pretty obvious.
The point is, if you want to prove MTL, you're gonna have to prove that with screenshots where the MTLI think what Daniale28 posted until now is enough proof that they used MTL. What's more, I don't trust this group in doing Japanese->Spanish translations when they can't even do English->Spanish correctly. If it were for me, I would have marked all their JP->SP releases as MTL already; but, besides for two games, I didn't tested them myself to confirm.
but rather a japanese>english mtl script that was later cleaned up and "hand translated" into spanishTranslations made from a MTL, even if they are done "at hand" and edited, are still marked as MTL.
A bad translation does not equal a machine translation.So far, I'm not convinced this is case here.Last modified on 2022-05-14 at 22:50
|#247 by Daniale28|
2022-05-14 at 23:04
|< report >So, another example of things that don't belong in a JP-ES translation. link |
link This one is nitpicky but again, it's part of that pattern (Todo lo que tengo que hacer is traced from "All I have to do")
It's the same issue I mentioned earlier of traced things from English, but i'll explain it better now. That "Eres muy aguda" is obviously a translation from "sharp". The issue here is that, while some people DO tell others that they're "sharp" (agudos) in Spanish, it's very rarely used (they would say something like "perspicaz" or "lista" instead) and along with the other evidences of this particular "pattern" of "traced English" prove AT THE VERY LEAST that the translator was looking and basing this off an English script (which obviously doesn't exist as TnS has no english tl, the only place you can get a english script is DeepL or Google).
Like I said, you just can't get these type of wording and coincidences with just a dictionary, tae kim and such. If that was the case you're translation would be LIBERAL and not having traces of other languages that are not japanese
|#248 by shukumeiteki1|
2022-05-14 at 23:05
|< report >@4digitmen well, have you read my posts on that thread? I'm trying to be unbiased nothing more and I really really dislike when someone brings captures of a discord chat or a twitter without any context, it doesn't matter what the topic is.|
I didn't label anything, as I pointed out another user did it with muramasa and the translation is not even out, I think that is being biased.
> as there's more than enough evidence for the claims made in each of their translations, all backed by native speakers who can actually write in Spanish
No there is not, just as I pointed in the thread, most of their proof is hearsay or discord extracts, that was my point, nothing else.
To be fair I don't think it's worth at this point to keep "defending" this group since it is really really sketchy at best but I'm not "defending" them but the principle behind this whole situation.Last modified on 2022-05-14 at 23:06
|#249 by Daniale28|
2022-05-14 at 23:06
|< report >Ok, this screenshot alone is extremely sketchy link|
"Salvador-sama"??? The original is obviously 救世主 (Saviour) BUT they think it's a name (hence the -sama at the end) ? I'm sorry but that's a very clear proof of machine translation. I have never seen any human made translation pull out crap like "Saviour-sama" and such.Last modified on 2022-05-14 at 23:07
|#250 by 4digitmen|
2022-05-14 at 23:11
|< report >|
Some releases marked as MTL don't have this "hard proof" you talk about.I'm not here to argue about how badly the MTL label has been applied on the website. Senmomo, which is an example that has been brought up time and time again, has been marked as MTL when it isn't even out yet. Not only that, it's based on completely circumstancial evidence about the translator's work schedule instead of actual evidence of the text being MTLed. What I'm trying to prevent here is further wrongful application of the MTL label when no proof has been shown for it.
What I mean by "hard proof" is actually showing which portions of the text might have been MTLed by way of showing how DeepL or Google outputs the line. I personally don't think showing a line and saying "it sounds like MTL" is enough. If you think so, that's fine, but there are many stiff translations or amateur translations which sound like MTL because they were translated overly formal and with a dictionary in hand. IMO this is a pretty logical train of thought on how the label should be applied, because otherwise the label ceases to be "machine-translation" and instead starts to mean "bad translation." I don't think that's a road vndb should go down, especially given how many people in this fandom like to ride the Dunning-Kruger wave, and think themselves as higher authority on the subject than they actually are.
C;H NoAH was marked as MTL because it was proven that the common route was machine-translated from the English translation by way of what I described, showing the output of the machine translation in comparison to the Spanish text. That has not been performed here. The only thing Daniale28 has done is show examples which could be shoddy work, or machine translation. It's not conclusive. I'd just like more evidence.
If you want to apply the exact same logic, I could label all of Amaterasu's releases as MTL. They demonstrate similar if not the exact same mistakes as Daniale28 has pointed out. However, we know that Amaterasu didn't use MTL. They were just bad.
(But I must say, I'm all for labeling all their releases as MTL if it means there's a lesser chance of people reading them.)