Animation: A Proposal

Posted in

#1 by eacil
2021-09-10 at 20:02
< report >Let's be honest, the current animation flag is a disaster.
The made up dichotomy simple/full animation is too close from the legit low/full animation that any animefan knows about to not create amalgamation. Many editors can't make the difference anyway and flag releases as fully animated even though it is just basic looping vectorial animation. Can't blame them. Who would think simple/full refers to something like looping?

It conflates too many things into few categories.
You can't distinguish the type of animation used. Biggest flaw imo and main reason why I find the current flag useless.
Simple for non eroge means mostly mouth/eyes/bg_effects but turns into loops for eroges. Confusing.
You can't distinguish a non eroge with lip sync from one with looping CG. Ok, can't think of a single example.
You can't distinguish an eroge 100% animated from one with 99% or less animation if it has loops. You can if it has more than loops.
Animation is spread between those flags and tags: Lip Sync, Highly Animated Sprites, Realtime 3D. I suppose that's why people already asked multiple times where are the tags about animation or if that could be added.

My proposal:

CG

Content: Story, H-scene.

Type: No animation, Hand-drawn animation, Vectorial animation, 3D animation.
Frequency: Entirely animated, Not entirely animated.
Looping: Movie-like, Loop-only.

I initially thought of:
Amount: Details, Most of the screen.
because there are VN where the amount of animation is small, like a tongue or simply background elements. Especially true with oldge. I thought we should be able to make the distinction between animated details and most of the CG being animated.
Details means less than 30% of the CG is animated.
But then, I don't know if it's worth it and if it will fare well concretely. If the animation is not consistent, you will have to calculate the average and it will be a pita.

Of course, all those options can be left blank apart Content and Type.

Tachie, BG effects

Handled with boxes and will replace tags. Technically, because of the way we split VN based on script, it's possible for a remake to have an entirely different presentation.

Lip sync (replacing Lip Sync)
Blinking eyes
Background effects (leaves, snow, flowing scenery)
Animated tachie (replacing Highly Animated Sprites)


Dunno if I nailed it because that kind of issue is always more complicated than it looks like. That's always when you discover you missed something obvious...
Atm I can't think of a single VN presenting different types of animation. If it's the case, it means you will have to generate multiple lines (content-type-frequency-looping) with different content-types.
#2 by beliar
2021-09-10 at 21:18
< report >I do agree with you, E, that animation option are a bit messy currently (though not as messy as the voice acting options, which should be a different whole thread). There is place for improvement, and I like some of the ideas you presented.

In essence you propose to split the animations section along the CG/HCG | Tachie/BG axis, rather than the Sex | Story axis. I'm not sure I agree with it, as more and more VNs I encounter employ composite images, where the line between the Tachie, BG and CG is extremely blurry. I prefer the traditional Sex|Story split, but with more options.

Story:
I like your idea of checkboxes, and some of the options you presented:

* Lip sync / Blinking eyes ( I think the two should be a single checkbox, as by splitting such options we are starting to spread * the information too thin)
* Background elements (not only leaves, snow, flowing scenery, but also say people walking in the background, driving cars)
* Animated tachie
* Fully animated scenes (more and more VNs have full animations that aren't movie files playing at certain moments, but rather full movie-like scenes that are rendered inside the engine. They can exist in tandem with other animations, like "Animated tachie", so they should have their own checkbox).

Sex:
I think you are delving too deep with what you labeled CG animation. No one's gonna bother marking so many options, and thus the data will be left half complete. The greatest drawback with the current system is that you cannot select both simple and full animations simultaneously. The wast majority of the games with fully animated H-scenes taht I have played only had a couple such scenes, with the other ones being "simple animation" scenes. Moreover, currently the options don't take into account if it's the sex scenes between tachie or animated CGs. These are the problems that need solving. Everything else is just... flavour.

So, if we go with the checkbox style for sex scenes too, we don't need the "No animations" option, as no marked checkboxes would mean that. Instead the options should be:

* Simple animations (tachie)
* Simple animations (CG)
* Full animations (tachie)
* Full animations (CG)

I'm not sure why you want to bother with the "Hand-drawn animation, Vectorial animation, 3D animation" hogwash, as no one will be interested in filling that up, not to mention that's even more confusing than the current system. Let's keep everything simple and user-friendly. :-)
#3 by naiohoras
2021-09-10 at 22:19
< report >I'm all for Beliar's suggestion for the story. but as for the sex animation, I believe most people don't know that vectorial animation is categorized as 'simple animation', so they will mark as either 'some fully animated scenes' or 'full animations'. so making it into two category 'simple' and 'full' would not solve that problem. sure, you can just update the guidelines, but no one read them anyway and they are only used as justification for reverting an edit :D
I'm more into adding explanation in parentheses, just like how we do for vn length.

the most popular type of H-animation used in Japanese media is what they call live2d, and it's just another word for vectorial animation. so I completely disagree that no one will bother to mark them, and I'm sure people that frequent boorus, pixiv, or some similar sites will know what'd they got from seeing the animation flag.

so I'm going with Eacil's proposal for H-animation, but with explanations/details included after them

* Hand-drawn animation (*some kind of explanation*))
* Vectorial animation (live2d, *some kind of explanation*)
* 3D animations (*some kind of explanation*)
#4 by beliar
2021-09-10 at 22:44
< report >
so I'm going with Eacil's proposal for H-animation, but with explanations/details included after them

* Hand-drawn animation (*some kind of explanation*))
* Vectorial animation (live2d, *some kind of explanation*)
* 3D animations (*some kind of explanation*)

Let's say we go with this. What happens? I think we could create a selection for the three options you have mentioned. When you make a selection, the checkboxes for 'Tachie' and 'CG' would appear, and we could select if the animation applies to Tachie, CGs or both.

That said, I'm not satisfied with the three options above, as the titles leave a lot to be desired.

* Hand-drawn animation - seems simple enough, except for the fact it's not simple at all, and after half an hour i still cannot think of a definition for this animation group.
* Vectorial animation - frankly, what is vectorial animation? Seriously? Some people throw the term around, but does anyone really know, or are they blindly repeating some phrase they heard on the net? I tried to google this shit and got "Vector animation refers to animation where the art or motion is controlled by vectors rather than pixels." What does that even mean? We really should get rid of such terms.
3D animations - yet another term that has no meaning. 3D animations invokes the feeling of the animations rendered in a 3D engine, like Daz or Honey Select, but all animations made such way can still be either simple loops or full blown cutscenes. Unless Eacil had something else in head when he used this term, but either way, the term is completely meaningless.

In other words I find the three proposed options worse than useless.

rather than discarding the existing simple/full animation terms, Yorhel could include the ability to hover the mouse over the option, and it would show the definition from the faq, so the drawback that no one reads the faq could be mitigated.
#5 by eacil
2021-09-10 at 22:45
< report >I bother with "the "Hand-drawn animation, Vectorial animation, 3D animation" hogwash" because, you know, I care about... animation. I just said that I found the current system useless because it didn't allow us to find animation by type. Of course I care, lol! My reason is simple, I care about hand-drawn animation, which is rare and precious when the norm is vectorial lazy crap. Hand-drawn animation is art, vectorial animation is industrial waste in comparison. If I can't find hand-drawn animation, the system can stay as it is as I couldn't care less.
Sorry but I think you completely miss the point here. Don't you think there is a big difference between 3D animation and 2D animation, for example, and you should be able to filter both?
I think you underestimate people like Warfoki. I created Flat Tints Only and monitored it. So far, those who used the trait understood what I meant even though the definition is one kilometer long (one baffling exception, though a downvote). I intend to write a clear guide as how to make the distinction between hand-drawn animation and vectorial animation. Just the name will force people to read it if they have no idea what's the difference is. You can only abuse stuff you think you know what it is... like simple and full animation.

No one's gonna bother marking so many options, and thus the data will be left half complete
Man, I proposed three options. Frequency and looping are from the current system and I only added type... You are blowing that out of proportion.
There is no problem with the data being left incomplete as long as it is not filled erroneously. All that matters at minimum is to know that the VN contains some undefined amount of animation. Type is enough to convey that as, even if you didn't play the VN, you should at least know what type of animation there is. If not, it would be equivalent to create a VN page without knowing the title. People who actually played the game will be able to fill if the animation covers the whole VN or if it's looping. The current system is more subject to error because you have to know from the get go if the "full animation" covers all scenes or not.

The greatest drawback with the current system is that you cannot select both simple and full animations simultaneously.
I don't follow you because according to vndb's definition, full animation includes simple animation. "Some full animations do eventually loop or transition into simple animations though, and might serve as an intro to a scene." Meaning that if you want to select both, you should select full.

Yeah, the main problem is that I am familiar with typical Japanese VN and Western ones are more innovative. There is also that ugly RPG Maker trend with animated pixel sprites...
It would be great if you could give me concrete examples of "composite images" or "sex scenes (featuring) tachie".
General appeal: if you have counter examples not already featured, please provide concrete examples to illustrate your claims.

we don't need the "No animations" option
We always need the no animation option because there is a difference between the absence of data and data (i.e. you won't be able to know if the game has no animation or if it has animation but was not marked as such yet). I am looking at you, the censorship flag.

Simple animations (tachie)
* Simple animations (CG)
* Full animations (tachie)
* Full animations (CG)
Your proposal falls into the pitfall I denounced which is to keep the ambiguous simple/full animation dichotomy which is a vndb-made unintuitive mess.


To explain why I split my proposal between tachie and CG and used boxes for tachie, it is because blinking eyes and lip sync would have been a pita to classify as vectorial or hand-drawn animation and that would have been confusing and deterring.
They also needed to be distinguished separately but if I shoehorned them into my content-type-frequency-looping proposal, I would have fallen into the pitfall I described where something as minor as eyes blinking would have been amalgamated with something like the entire tachie being animated.

However, I see no problem with putting tachie under content-type-frequency-looping. In fact, RPG Maker games, now that I remember them, use pixel sprites animated by hand.
If you can't convince me that you can't make the distinction between tachie and CG nowadays, I can see my proposal being modified as:

Content: Story, H-scene.
Medium: CG, Tachie.

Type: No animation, Hand-drawn animation, Vectorial animation, 3D animation.
Frequency: Entirely animated, Not entirely animated.
Looping: Movie-like, Loop-only. (CG only)

*Lip sync/blinking eyes
*Background effects (leaves, snow, flowing scenery << they were just examples)

Fully animated scenes
Not sure I follow you. Isn't that handled with Looping:Movie-like? If your game is full of realtime 3D animation then you can find them with Type:3D+Looping:Movie-like.
Animated cut scenes would be handled with Looping:Movie-like too.

though not as messy as the voice acting options, which should be a different whole thread
You took the words right out of my mouth. If the current issue is not too mentally damaging, I intend to tackle it as well because people marking nukige as partially voiced drives me nuts.

Edit: ok, I will write a little something for Beliar-kun, to explain to him what's the difference between vectorial and hand-drawn animation because I wouldn't want him to judge something he doesn't understand what it is in the first place, right?

but all animations made such way can still be either simple loops or full blown cutscenes
And I still don't see the problem. You are amalgamating Type with Looping.Last modified on 2021-09-10 at 22:50
#6 by beliar
2021-09-10 at 23:21
< report >
I don't follow you because according to vndb's definition, full animation includes simple animation.
See, the problem is, our current options are:
* Simple animations
* Some fully animated scenes
* All scenes fully animated
You see, the third option only applies if all scenes are fully animated, so essentially it's only used for rare games, like "School Days".
The second option means some scenes have full animations, but it doesn't say if other scenes are completely unanimated or they have simple animations.
The first option is only used if there are simple animations, but it doesn't say if all the scenes have simple animations, or only some of them.
Can you see the problem? The vast majority of games I have recently encountered had some full animations, some simple animations, and some unanimated scenes. It's currently impossible to pertain that information with the available options, which is the main reason I'm agreeing with the needed overhaul, as I'm personally completely uninterested in what you describe as "Type".

It would be great if you could give me concrete examples of "composite images" or "sex scenes (featuring) tachie".

This mostly concerns the rendered VNs, but there are basically two main means of rendering the images. They can be rendered wholesale (characters and backgrounds are rendered together, thus there are no separate character tachie). In this case the Only Event CGs tag applies. This method requires a very powerful PC. The other option that is much more frequently used renders backgrounds and tachie separately. You would think it would be obvious when that happens, but some more creative developers actually render backgrounds with the character cutouts and then combine the tachie and the backgrounds in engine seamlessly. There were cases where I sincerely had no idea if the characters were rendered separately or not, until I checked the image archive. In some cases, the characters might end up having sex against a static background, where only the characters are animated. One could say, there are no CGs in such cases - backgrounds and characters are the only elements. For example: link. this is the "go to" way of producing sex scenes for OELVN creators that don't have powerful machines.

Not sure I follow you. Isn't that handled with Looping:Movie-like?
Yes, but in your initial post you separated CG from Tachie/BG. It seemed that you only intend to create a checkbox solution for Tachie/BG and leave Type-Frequency-Looping for CG. What I tried to show was that Tachie and BG can also have full animation sequences (In fact I encounter Tachie and BG with full animations much more frequently that fully animated CGs), which you didn't seem to take into account in the OP.
#7 by naiohoras
2021-09-11 at 01:24
< report >I believe people have common senses, and if we can get people to get it right for their very first edit, despite them being not fully comprehended the meaning, is not our objective fulfilled? to be detailed, yet intuitive as possible, as to minimalize wrong edit to occur in editing.
yes, I can see that some people wouldn't know what vectorial animation is, but I am pretty sure that people comprehend the general idea about Hand-drawn animation and 3D animation without us being pedantic. although, I don't mind putting clarifier in form of mouse hovering, parantheses, or guidelines (whatever Yorhel see fit) as preventive measures. a short description plus examples for each type is the best way to make user understand, in my opinion.

It would be great if you could give me concrete examples of "composite images" or "sex scenes (featuring) tachie".
try this one Moto Yankee Tsuma Hinako ~Shinshin Tomo ni Kanzen Netori!~. there are tachie-based h scenes there...

The vast majority of games I have recently encountered had some full animations, some simple animations, and some unanimated scenes. It's currently impossible to pertain that information with the available options
I don't see the reason why it wouldn't be solved by Frequency and Types. the advantage about checkboxes is that they are not mutually exclusive with each other, so if a vn have more than an animation style, then we just need to tick checkboxes accordingly.
as for lipsync and blinking, that should fall into "limited animation" type.

Types:
* Hand-drawn animation (Animations created frame-by-frame by hands. Examples: School Days, <direct example uploaded somewhere>)
* Vectorial animations (Computer-processed animations created by manipulating 2-dimensional objects, hence its alias Live2D. Examples: 9 -Nine- Sorairo Sorauta Soranooto, <direct example uploaded somewhere>)
* 3D animations (Computer-processed animations created by manipulating 3-dimensional objects. Examples: Ookami Shoujo to Issho, <direct example upload somewhere>)

Frequency:
* No animation <choosing this makes user unable to tick other options>
* Limited animations (Blinkings and lipsyncs) <choosing this makes user unable to tick 'types' options>
* Some scenes are animated
* All scenes are animatedLast modified on 2021-09-11 at 01:25
#8 by eacil
2021-09-11 at 02:14
< report >Ok, small lesson about hand-drawn animation and vectorial animation for Beliar-kun and everybody else interested.
First, I see you amalgamate animation type and looping/continuous animation. Forget about the later as it is not relevant. All three types can loop or be continuous e.g. be cutscenes.


HAND-DRAWN ANIMATION OR TRADITIONAL ANIMATION is a type of animation where every frame is drawn independently. Beware that it doesn't mean that every frame needs to be redrawn entirely. You obviously only change the part that needs to be moving.
Look at this picture > link
All of that is hand-drawn animation. Every frame was separately drawn. Most of those are blinking eyes but you can see that you need six different frames to render the movement of a tongue licking.
You put them next to the other and voilà you have a hand-drawn movement.
Think that most 2D anime are made like that.

Exemples of hand-drawn animation are:
Qualiaffordance
Sisters ~Natsu no Saigo no Hi~
Reversible
Jealousy
VN from Erogos
The Viper series


VECTORIAL ANIMATION, on the other hand, starts with a pre-existing illustration. A software such as e-mote, Live2D or Adobe After Effects will then be used that will take the illustration and use cheap tricks on it, such as translations and deformations (vectors). You take the picture, you cut in it, stretch, move, dilate parts of it. In no case you draw anything.
Watch link I randomly selected to see how to animate using vectorial animation. It should be pretty obvious after that what is the difference with traditional animation where you would need to draw multiple frames to obtain the same result.

Example of vectorial animation are (and they are numerous):
VN from Anime Lilith, Anime-seal, Anim
Motto! Haramase! Honoo no Oppai Isekai Ero Mahou Gakuen!
The majority of VN under "simple animation"


Big hint, traditional animation uses the Flat Tints Only style because go draw consistent shading from frame to frame with gradient. Vectorial has no problem with that.

Beware that hand-drawn animation can include vector based animation too, mostly translations! Why redraw every frame in your anime when you want your object to travel from the right to the left! Animation is not black and white.
An anime using such techniques a lot will be said having low animation, such as Tezuka's Tetsuwan Atom from 1963. You need to do if you want to cut cost.
Anyway, don't freak out if you see some translations in a VN supposedly animated by hand.

One difference between hand-drawn animation and vectorial is that the former require huge amount of money, time and talent when vectorial doesn't need any of that. It's the same difference between 3D and 2D. You and me can open a Patreon and start doing 3D crap but none of us can start making a 2D game because it needs more savoir-faire than using a software. It's the same with hand-drawn animation and vectorial. We can't draw a 2D game but we can open a studio to vectorial-wash VN made by others.


3D ANIMATION is obviously animation using 3D engines. Nothing complicated with that.


As you see, it doesn't have anything to do with looping because you can achieve looping with any of those types of animation.


I hope it will help you Beliar stop spouting and making a fool of yourself by saying that those distinctions are "meaningless" and "worse than useless" YOU FILTHY 3D GOER.Last modified on 2021-09-11 at 03:09
#9 by barfboy
2021-09-11 at 05:25
< report >I apologize, what is tachie? Google gives me nothing. It seems to be a lake, a road, a character in type moon, a type of Japanese sword and a soccer player among other things. I can't see anything having to do with animation.
#10 by ninigi
2021-09-11 at 05:34
< report >Tachie is a character sprite. Example - link.
#11 by barfboy
2021-09-11 at 07:13
< report >Okay, thank you. So has anyone here played Suezen! ~Tane o Nozomu Kanojo~

It's looping animation followed by looping animation followed by a finisher animation in one connected scene. I wish I could share an example but all the boorus shut out loli content. So like, the guy inserts inside the girl, pistons in and out in a loop, the loop changes a bit, then he ejaculates inside and the scene is over. No change of positions, a static scene from beginning to end but it's obvious that it's looping animation. Just a series of them to create the scene.

I don't know if you can use some of the animation from that as an example of anything but it seems like something that could be useful.

Also with early games from Swaneye, especially Hara☆Min!! ~Saimin Nakadashi Kozukuri Sengen~ the girls 'breath', their hair moves, they blink and talk but the animation isn't especially high tech or great, it's some in house animation they created. It's inbetween stuff though so it's somewhere between your standard eye blinking and full animation. Might be useful again.Last modified on 2021-09-11 at 07:14
#12 by adamstan
2021-09-11 at 07:31
< report >I'm not sure if it has been addressed or not, but games like Love Escalator or Lovers ~Koi ni Ochitara...~ (actually two versions of the same game, but I have played them so I can speak about them) have hand-drawn looping animation for their H-scenes.
#13 by eacil
2021-09-11 at 10:01
< report >
See, the problem is, our current options are:
* Simple animations
* Some fully animated scenes
* All scenes fully animated
You see, the third option only applies if all scenes are fully animated, so essentially it's only used for rare games, like "School Days".
The second option means some scenes have full animations, but it doesn't say if other scenes are completely unanimated or they have simple animations.
The first option is only used if there are simple animations, but it doesn't say if all the scenes have simple animations, or only some of them.
Can you see the problem? The vast majority of games I have recently encountered had some full animations, some simple animations, and some unanimated scenes. It's currently impossible to pertain that information with the available options, which is the main reason I'm agreeing with the needed overhaul, as I'm personally completely uninterested in what you describe as "Type".
The "fully animated" option should be for VN with both looping and non looping sequences. Story mode never loops but ero mode always loops at some point, afaik.
Meaning that if you select the second option, it tells you that the other scenes are static.
With the new system,
Content:H-scene + Looping:Movie-like + Frequency:Entirely animated = your VN has a mix of looping and non looping H sequences.
Content:H-scene + Looping:Movie-like + Frequency:Not entirely animated = your VN has a mix of looping, non looping, and static H sequences.

I don't see the point for more granulosity.

Btw, you should be interested by my Type if you want to filter 3D animation. Realtime 3D will be removed so you won't be able to find those anymore unless you use this type.

This mostly concerns the rendered VNs, but there are basically two main means of rendering the images. They can be rendered wholesale (characters and backgrounds are rendered together, thus there are no separate character tachie). In this case the Only Event CGs tag applies. This method requires a very powerful PC. The other option that is much more frequently used renders backgrounds and tachie separately. You would think it would be obvious when that happens, but some more creative developers actually render backgrounds with the character cutouts and then combine the tachie and the backgrounds in engine seamlessly. There were cases where I sincerely had no idea if the characters were rendered separately or not, until I checked the image archive. In some cases, the characters might end up having sex against a static background, where only the characters are animated. One could say, there are no CGs in such cases - backgrounds and characters are the only elements. For example: link. this is the "go to" way of producing sex scenes for OELVN creators that don't have powerful machines.
This, however, is a major PITA.
Well, first, I don't see how the way the animation is rendered in your games is relevant to the problem at hands but I am honestly not sure I understand what point you are trying to make. Why does it matter if the characters and the BCG are rendered together or separately?

What we need to be clear about is what is an event CG and what is a character sprite.

I would define a character sprite as a cutout character which is not embedded in a background, or if it is somehow (like you could argue that their feet are on the floor), that character is transposed as is in other backgrounds, meaning not really embedded.
Taking your example, link, link and link are character sprites. All other screenshots are event CG.

It might pose problems with RPG Maker games because for some of them I can see them having only character sprites and never any CG with a background if the game itself is used for that. Like you will have gameplay pixel sprites fucking and character drawings with no background fucking in front of the gameplay. I see some galleries like that on exh.
We won't be able to distinguish those two types of graphics but I say we don't care. RPG Maker games are already bordeline enough, if they can't have proper event CG, it's their problem.

@Naiohoras, I don't see the need for checkboxes instead of plain selects.
Can you think of a single game using multiple types of animation?
At least, Frequency can certainly not be checkboxes because they do are mutually exclusive.

I see "Limited animations (Blinkings and lipsyncs) <choosing this makes user unable to tick 'types' options>" but of course you can have another type of animation because this isn't one. It's a separate checkbox for a reason.

@Barfboy
Okay, thank you. So has anyone here played Suezen! ~Tane o Nozomu Kanojo~

It's looping animation followed by looping animation followed by a finisher animation in one connected scene. I wish I could share an example but all the boorus shut out loli content. So like, the guy inserts inside the girl, pistons in and out in a loop, the loop changes a bit, then he ejaculates inside and the scene is over. No change of positions, a static scene from beginning to end but it's obvious that it's looping animation. Just a series of them to create the scene.
One of the game I listed is like that, with special "starter" and "finisher".
I believe those should fall under Looping:Movie-like for the one reason that if you don't put those under Movie-like then you put nothing for Content:H-scene as Movie-like.
I didn't play School Day but I am sure that Content:Story+Looping:Movie-like will take care of finding those special games.Last modified on 2021-09-11 at 10:20
#14 by naiohoras
2021-09-11 at 11:43
< report >
Can you think of a single game using multiple types of animation? At least, Frequency can certainly not be checkboxes because they do are mutually exclusive.
not that I can think of. it can be there for preventive measure though. but I don't mind either way.

let's say that I agree to all of your proposal. is this how they will look like? (cmiiw)

Content: <checkboxes, checking one or both will make later options appear. they are separated>
* Story
* H-scene

Apply for: <checkboxes, checking one or both will make later options appear. they are separated>
* Tachie
* Event CG

Frequency: <selection>
* No animation <choosing this makes user unable to tick other options>
* Some scenes are animated
* All scenes are animated

Types: <checkboxes or selection>
* Hand-drawn animation (Animations created frame-by-frame by hands. Examples: School Days, <direct example uploaded somewhere>)
* Vectorial animations (Computer-processed animations created by manipulating 2-dimensional objects, hence its alias Live2D. Examples: 9 -Nine- Sorairo Sorauta Soranooto, <direct example uploaded somewhere>)
* 3D animations (Computer-processed animations created by manipulating 3-dimensional objects. Examples: Ookami Shoujo to Issho, <direct example upload somewhere>)

Looping: <selection>
*Movie-like
*Loop-only

Other animations: <checkboxes>
* Simpler sprite animation (Lipsync, blinking)
* Higher sprite animation (Body movements)
* Background effects (Falling leafs, snow, etc.)

-------------

that one hell of a detail just for animation. I seriously wonder that do we really need the Looping option and Tachie / Event CG option as not to make it too complicated for user...
#15 by eacil
2021-09-11 at 12:05
< report >SELECT
Content: Story, H-scene.
Medium: CG, Character sprite.

Type: No animation, Hand-drawn animation, Vectorial animation, 3D animation.
Frequency: Entirely animated, Not entirely animated.
Looping: Loops/non-loops, Loops-only.

CHECKBOXES
*Lip sync/blinking eyes
*Background effects (leaves, snow, flowing scenery << they were just examples)

You don't need to write Content, Medium, Type, Frequency and Looping.
How I see it, it will be one single line of selects. Depends on how long this is.

[Story, H-scene] [CG, Character sprite] [No animation, Hand-drawn animation, Vectorial animation, 3D animation] [Entirely animated, Not entirely animated] [Loops/non-loops, Loops-only] +

[x] Lip sync/blinking eyes
[x] Background effects

You can spam a maximum of 4 lines with the + button, a combination of [Story, H-scene] and [CG, Character sprite].

One idea to reduce the bloat would be to only input animation and have a primary checkbox to fix the result.
Meaning that if there is no animation, you check the checkbox and do nothing else. The whole thing will show NO ANIMATION.
If it's a nukige with classic vectorial animation, you fill one line:
[H-scene] [CG] [Vectorial animation] [Not entirely animated] [Loops-only]
and then check the box.
The box would only be here to say that the rest has no animation instead of N/A.

Reason for editing: making the proposal up to date.Last modified on 2021-09-18 at 22:40
#16 by jacopo
2021-09-11 at 12:10
< report >
I seriously wonder that do we really need the Looping option and Tachie / Event CG option as not to make it too complicated for user...
I agree with this, but instead of scrapping the Tachie/CG distinction, I would scrap Story/H-scenes instead.
Tachie/CG is a more broad and useful distinction to make, since it can also apply to games without any H content. Additionally there is a lot of overlap, since most H-scenes make use of CGs.

More generally, if you know it's an 18+ game, and you see it has animated CGs, you'll know that it has animated H-scenes. I can't imagine a game that would animate the "tame" CGs and then leave the H content unanimated.
#17 by beliar
2021-09-11 at 14:34
< report >
Tachie is a character sprite. Example - link.
Yeah, we should probably use the term "character sprite" in the actual animation options, because not everyone is familiar with the term "tachie".

ry this one Moto Yankee Tsuma Hinako ~Shinshin Tomo ni Kanzen Netori!~. there are tachie-based h scenes there...
Yeah. this link is fan example of a background in composition with a tachie-like sex scene. This method is much more frequently used in western VNs than in JP ones, but apparently it does exist there too.

It's looping animation followed by looping animation followed by a finisher animation in one connected scene.
Yet again a method that is very frequently used in 3DCG VNs. For example a character is shon putting his dick into a vagina in what can be considered a very short clip of full animation, which immediately transitions into an endless loop of an actual sex scene.

With the new system,
Content:H-scene + Looping:Movie-like + Frequency:Entirely animated = your VN has a mix of looping and non looping H sequences.
Content:H-scene + Looping:Movie-like + Frequency:Not entirely animated = your VN has a mix of looping, non looping, and static H sequences.
Not sure I understand. Makes no sense for me. "Content:H-scene + Looping:Movie-like + Frequency:Entirely animated" implies that all scenes are non-looping - it says nothing about looping animations. How can a single option tell you that it's a mix of looping and non-looping animations? The logic is giving me a headache. We should be able to select multiple instances of type and frequency on a release:
Content:H-scene + Looping:Movie-like + Frequency:Entirely animated - All H-scenes are fully animated
Content:H-scene + Looping:Movie-like + Frequency:Not entirely animated = your VN has a mix of non looping, and static H sequences.
Content:H-scene + Looping:Movie-like + Frequency:Not entirely animated +
Looping:Loop-only + Frequency:Not entirely animated = your VN has a mix of looping and non looping, and static H sequences.
Content:H-scene + Looping:Movie-like + Frequency:Not entirely animated +
Looping:Loop-only + Frequency:Not entirely animated +
No Animation = your VN has a mix of looping, non looping, and static H sequences.
This is the only mix that makes sense to me.

Btw, you should be interested by my Type if you want to filter 3D animation. Realtime 3D will be removed
Realtime 3D has nothing to do with animations. You are mixing different concepts here. In fact there are very few Realtime 3D novels in the DB and majority of them are mistagged.
Realtime 3D shows that the Vn is rendered in relatime in the game engine, i.e. there are no such things as backgrounds, tachie or CG in the game archives. they are created at the moment you are viewing them. In comparison, Pre-rendered 3D Graphics shows that the images were rendered before the Vn is launched using an external engine - something like Daz, Kotaku or Iray. These are the tags of the presentation in engine and have nothing to do with animations.

Moreover, most of the 3D rendered games don't even have any animations. lol.

Taking your example, link, link and link are character sprites. All other screenshots are event CG.
There are no Cgs in that game, as none of the characters are embedded in the background.

Types: <checkboxes or selection>
Should be selection I think. I'm not sure if there are Vns that mix the types.

Looping: <selection>
And that definitely should be a cjheckbox. Different looping styles within a Vn is the norm within the OELVN community.

Looping: Movie-like, Loop-only. (CG only)
Absolutely shouldn't apply to CG only. As I have said, a lot of tachie have both looping and even full animations in VNs. For example, a character sees the girl tachie across the street. She is animated going to the crossing, crossing the street, coming to the protagonist ans stopping in front of him. Then the game switches to the normal static Vn screen of her talking to him. Such fully animated tachie scenes are extremely common lately.

More generally, if you know it's an 18+ game, and you see it has animated CGs, you'll know that it has animated H-scenes. I can't imagine a game that would animate the "tame" CGs and then leave the H content unanimated.
I distinctly remember encountering Vns with animated story scenes but only static H-scenes.
#18 by jacopo
2021-09-11 at 20:33
< report >
I distinctly remember encountering Vns with animated story scenes but only static H-scenes.
Damn, I would not have expected that. I stand corrected.
#19 by beliar
2021-09-11 at 20:53
< report >
Damn, I would not have expected that. I stand corrected.
Or maybe they were VNs with full story animations and only simple H-animations... Not sure about that. One or the other, but I remember being surprised.

Edit: Lol. Just as I said it, here FreshWomen is a Vn with animated story sequences and static H-scenes.Last modified on 2021-09-11 at 21:05
#20 by eacil
2021-09-17 at 23:15
< report >
Realtime 3D
Ah yeah, my bad. I thought for a second that realtime implied animation. I always find weird that 3D games use animation so little...
It's weird to use the CPU to render a picture instead of taking it.

Not sure I understand. Makes no sense for me. "Content:H-scene + Looping:Movie-like + Frequency:Entirely animated" implies that all scenes are non-looping - it says nothing about looping animations. How can a single option tell you that it's a mix of looping and non-looping animations? The logic is giving me a headache. We should be able to select multiple instances of type and frequency on a release:
Think it this way, when talking about h-scenes, do you know many games where the animated h-scenes are not looping? Looping is the norm because that's how it works unless your 3D games generate random movements just to fuck with my mind once again...
So, even with the current definition of full animation, full animation (old) and movie-like (new) include loops. That's why it's called movie-like and not no-loops. That is also why loops-only is called only and not loops alone. Loops-only is not the opposite of movie-like.
I was thinking about renaming movie-like "loops/non-loops" but it might be a little long.
The option no-loops has no value. It probably doesn't exist and if it does I think it's not worth the bother. Edit: I am talking ero-wise because story-wise, it's loops-only which has no value, meaning that movie-like takes care of the no-loops option just fine for the story parts.

And that definitely should be a cjheckbox. Different looping styles within a Vn is the norm within the OELVN community.
Now I hope you understand that you don't need a checkbox for that.

Absolutely shouldn't apply to CG only. As I have said, a lot of tachie have both looping and even full animations in VNs. For example, a character sees the girl tachie across the street. She is animated going to the crossing, crossing the street, coming to the protagonist ans stopping in front of him. Then the game switches to the normal static Vn screen of her talking to him. Such fully animated tachie scenes are extremely common lately.
Now that I have understood that tachie can give blowjob, yes, looping should be allowed for them.


Now, the main problem and the reason for my delay: the CG/tachie distinction is meaningful with regular JP games but it loses its meaning with your freaking 3D games because they are also used for events...

There are no Cgs in that game, as none of the characters are embedded in the background.
Wrong, I just finished this garbage (real reason for my delay; not thanking you btw) and it does have CG. Some big h-scenes involve CG.

The thing is, tachie are not supposed to have furniture with them. It's like relief, like if a part of the BCG was put on the foreground with the characters instead of having a clear separation background vs characters.
Now I understand what you mean with "composite images, where the line between the Tachie, BG and CG is extremely blurry".

I see two solutions:

The first one is to define character sprites as "A character sprite is a cutout character which is not embedded in the background CG. It can comes with a 'sub background' e.g. furniture, but the whole is independent from the background CG. It can happen that a character sprite appears to be shallowly embedded in a background by having their feet on the floor while matching the perspective but either the same sprite is used in a different BCG and/or the BCG replaces it with different ones."
What defines a character sprite is the BCG. In Katie's case, the photographic backgrounds set pretty much everything as character sprites. You can recognize CG in this game because the characters have a pretty thick grainy filter on them, like link and link. The background is always in 3D and the characters properly embedded in it.

The second solution is to define events and sprites relatively to each other but I didn't even try defining that because it is too complicated. It might be feasible if I put my mind to it... dunno.Last modified on 2021-09-18 at 02:16
#21 by beliar
2021-09-18 at 15:08
< report >
Think it this way, when talking about h-scenes, do you know many games where the animated h-scenes are not looping?
There were definitely games I have seen, that had at least some fully animated H-scenes that didn't loop or transition into a loop.

Wrong, I just finished this garbage (real reason for my delay; not thanking you btw)
You actually went and did it? Mad respectz, lad. It's a shame our forum doesn't give badges, because you definitely earned your "Fapped to a kusoge" badge :-P

I see two solutions
Eh, I think the first solution is good enough.
#22 by yorhel
2021-09-19 at 08:25
< report >I was hoping this would converge to a wonderful solution with all points addressed before I butt in so I could just disable my brain and implement it, but I see you won't allow me to be that lazy. :(

Going from #15:
SELECT
Content: Story, H-scene.
Medium: CG, Character sprite.
No objection there, distinguishing between these seems useful.

One concern regarding scope: how integrated do the animations have to be into the story content in order to be considered? i.e. I take it opening movies don't really count, but what about other in-between animations? Muramasa for example has some short fully animated videos that play at certain points in the story, e.g. when entering into mecha mode.

Type: No animation, Hand-drawn animation, Vectorial animation, 3D animation.
How do we count the common "simple" animations that consist of zooming and moving around CGs and sprites, such as the action scenes in F/SN. Do we lump that together with live2d-like vectorial animation?

And I find it funny how Beliar advocates for checkboxes everywhere except here. I've no clue how common it is for VNs to mix styles, but if those short animations in Muramasa count and we take CG/sprite movement as vectorial, then all 3 styles apply. (as much as I hate checkboxes, that is, they bloat both the internal database and the UI)
Unlike with the other fields, these options can't be lumped together in some way.

Looping: Loops/non-loops, Loops-only.
I find this one confusing and I'm not sure how valuable this information even is. How long do the loops have to be for it start counting as "non-loops", and is a 1-second animation that is only played once enough to count as "non-loops"?Last modified on 2021-09-19 at 09:15
#23 by beliar
2021-09-19 at 10:29
< report >
I take it opening movies don't really count, but what about other in-between animations?
Yeah, I think OP/ED movies shouldn't count. In essence, we have to establish a difference between cutscenes and full animations. In other words, the movie files the game might play at certain moments shouldn't be lumped with animations, which are rendered in the engine.
#24 by eacil
2021-09-19 at 16:12
< report >
How do we count the common "simple" animations that consist of zooming and moving around CGs and sprites, such as the action scenes in F/SN. Do we lump that together with live2d-like vectorial animation?
Nah, this is level zero of animation and far too common. Imagine if we mark VN with the shaking effect.
If you want to, you can import High Amount of Special Effects as a checkbox.

I find this one confusing and I'm not sure how valuable this information even is. How long do the loops have to be for it start counting as "non-loops", and is a 1-second animation that is only played once enough to count as "non-loops"?
Well, dude, do I need to remind you that you built your current system around that idea of looping? I am following the will of the people for that one as I have no interest here. You should know better than me why you did that...
I wouldn't mind if you scratched that choice. Concretely, looping is useless for story elements. Those parts don't loop. What is left are h-scenes and apparently people want to be able to find anime-like scenes like... idk School Days. I think Story + Hand-drawn animation + Entirely animated should be enough to spot those, imo.
If no one is for keeping that select, I am ok for removing it.

cutscenes
Valid point. Those must count. But yeah, not OP or ED.
Animation is not always using the "engine". You are too focused on 3D, Beliar. When I wanted to change the speed of a vectorial animation from Anime Lilith, I noticed they were just plain video files. They were not just played separately but in the background while the text was displayed. Hand-drawn animation probably only relies on videos.
I propose that an animated cutscene is "a non interactive animated sequence that breaks the continuity of the game". Non interactive and breaking the continuity are the two important points. "Breaking the continuity" because fully hand drawn games like Sogna would have their animation marked as cutscenes instead of CG (I mean, non looping animation tends to pause the game while it is playing). Yes, I am aware that we are stretching the definition of CG.

So, I am adding a special category for cutscenes, then.

And I find it funny how Beliar advocates for checkboxes everywhere except here. I've no clue how common it is for VNs to mix styles, but if those short animations in Muramasa count and we take CG/sprite movement as vectorial, then all 3 styles apply. (as much as I hate checkboxes, that is, they bloat both the internal database and the UI)
This doesn't work like this. You can already select different types of animation for different combination of Story/H-scene, CG/Character sprite. Example:
H-scene + CG + Vectorial animation
Story + Character sprite + 3D
I am not against checkboxes for the Type because you never know. I think I saw both vectorial and 3D being used on those Muramasa mecha cutscenes. This is probably extremely rare to combine multiple type of animation for the same stuff (h-scenes or sprites, etc.) though.
If those checkboxes happen to never be used, you could always convert them into a select later.

__________________________
(* = select, [x] = checkbox)

*Medium: CG, Character sprite, Cutscenes
*Content: Story, H-scene.

Type:
[x]No animation
[x]Hand-drawn animation
[x]Vectorial animation
[x]3D animation
[x]Live movie

*Frequency: Entirely animated, Not entirely animated.

[x]Lip sync/blinking eyes
[x]Background effects (leaves, snow, flowing scenery << they were just examples)
[x]High Amount of Special Effects (?) (should be dependent on the Background effects checkbox)

Cutscenes grey Content and Frequency out. I can't think of any ero cutscenes but I could be wrong. Yeah, maybe not grey Content out just to be on the safe side.
I added Live movie as a Type for stuff like 428 ~Fuusa Sareta Shibuya de~. Be ready to add more types if those appear.Last modified on 2021-09-19 at 16:41
#25 by beliar
2021-09-19 at 16:41
< report >
When I wanted to change the speed of a vectorial animation from Anime Lilith, I noticed they were just plain video files.
You kinda blew my mind here.

I can't think of any ero cutscenes but I could be wrong.
Here you are: Coercion. Well, it's live movies to be exact.

I admit I have a hard time visualizing what you are saying, so it's hard for me to criticize the model. Do I understand correctly that it will go something like this:
We select story, which will open the medium then we'll be able to select for example CG and assign No Animation, then say select Character sprites and select Vectorial animation. After that we repeat with the H-scenes?