Animation: A Proposal

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#76 by Ileca
2021-11-07 at 01:25
< report >Yeah but you can't just brush off games where the animation would be created in true real time juts for the sake of excluding something you don't want. Vectorial can probably be the same. Use your CPU or be just a recording. These are technicalities that are in fine irrelevant to the topic at hands. The worst being that to mark those releases, you would have to dive inside the assets to check if it's real time or pre-rendered stuff. And why would you make this distinction in the first place if you have to dive in the engine to be able to make the distinction? Even if it was spotable to the naked eye, why would you discriminate against such games? Would you be ok if the RPG Maker cutscenes would be recorded beforehand? It would make no sense. I mean, maybe they are!

It's a pretty big abuse of comparison to say that after creating an animation with the help of your 3D engine, slicing it into pieces makes it the same as hand-drawn animation. Because it clearly is not comparable to that. 3D-rendered animation and 3D animation are not qualitatively different if they pretty much look the same in the end.

The animation flag is not here to make distinction based on optimization schemes.
#77 by beliar
2021-11-07 at 01:31
< report >
I don't know about "engine peculiarities" but I don't want to put game sprites and NVL/ADV sprites in the same bag
Neither do I.

Game scripts/events that makes characters move from one place to another during the story parts and are not part of a cinematic event (cutscene), live action, animated background or animated CG.
Sounds good. Though "transition" should also be mentioned among those parts mentioned, otherwise some poor fucker will confuse character movement with character transitions.

One last thing, Isn't Corpse Party a 2D game?
Yes, of course.

Also, I can't think of any visual novel with 3D sprites and without any gameplay that could be confused as game sprites.
Not sure why you are mentioning that, but I believe Knee Deep fits. That game has true 3D sprites (in contrast to pre-rendered 3D, which is factually 2D that only simulates 3D), and no gameplay.
#78 by Ileca
2021-11-07 at 01:33
< report >Btw what about RPG Maker games where the h-scenes are sprites fucking? >.>
#79 by beliar
2021-11-07 at 01:40
< report >
I believe game sprites and illustration sprites should be amalgamated for the sake of our sanity.
Btw what about RPG Maker games where the h-scenes are sprites fucking? >.>
I don't believe gameplay sprites should be amalgamated with the character sprites, especially if the game has both types of sprites. Actually, why do we care about the gameplay sprites that much. Just add them as part of "background effects".
#80 by Ezezin
2021-11-07 at 01:54
< report >I was thinking on allowing Sexual Scenes with Gameplay for h-scenes since there are a lot of nukige where the only animations are during gameplay or game sprites (and I'm seeing people raging because their favorite rape/molesting(chikan) game is marked as no animation).
Also, game sprites during sex scenes aren't moving from one place to another anyway (that would be weird). If there are naked characters running from the rapist or the tentacle monster from Beliar's basement we have Naked Sprites

Edit: In other words, being less restrictive on h-scenes to allow some nukiges being marked with animations.

do we care about the gameplay sprites that much.
We don't? This is a visual novel database. If there is enough demand for it, it would be much better to create a tag for it.

otherwise some poor fucker will confuse character movement with character transitions.
I LOL'd so hard with that xDLast modified on 2021-11-07 at 06:55
#81 by Yorhel
2021-11-07 at 09:55
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Does that mean you will implement that? I mean, what's your struggle? All I see is to add boxes above every "Not animated".
Sure, if that's where the concensus is going to. The struggle here was that I was unable to implement a few checkboxes in a 10 minute rushjob.

Of course, Angelic Serenade is consistent, BUT NOT GEKKOU NO CARNIVAL, THE SECOND MOST USED SKIN! *SCREEN SHAKING* *LOTS OF SPECIAL EFFECTS*
I refuse to take responsibility for skins I did not create. I mean, most of them are totally unreadable yet people still use them. There's no accounting for taste, evidently. Either use a skin that isn't broken or fix it yourself.

EDIT: And poor beliar, unable to convince anyone of his looping ideas. :(Last modified on 2021-11-07 at 10:52
#82 by Ileca
2021-11-07 at 22:58
< report >I "care" about gameplay sprites that much because, writing the guidelines, you have to care about all types of animation and all types of game and tie everything together.
Things are not as simple as "we don't want RPG Maker narrative sequences where they move the sprites to be marked as animation" so "we exclude game sprites". All games are not using the traditional tachie against BCG + CG events presentation. I am not trying to defend RPG Maker games, I am trying to defend 3D games!
RPG Maker games are easy because they are using different sprites for the gameplay, but if you exclude game sprites, you exclude every 3D game with gameplay because there is no distinction for them between game sprites, ADV/NVL sprites and event CG sprites! They are the ones which are making everything complicated again!

Take AI The Somnium. I would not count the point and click sequences as gameplay like you are pretty much expected to click on the characters to open classic dialogues featuring tachie. However it has well defined mini-games. The 3D model used in those mini-games where you have control of the character are also used as tachie, inside ""CG"", and also inside cutscenes. All the game uses the same 3D models in all kind of ways. Ditching them would be like ditching the whole game. There is no separation. Worse, when you talk with a character, you have two layers (look at link (honestly, this gallery is terrible in showcasing the game)) where you have both 3D models used as tachie and 3D models in the background that you can see move. In the end, I would mark this game as
story>sprites>not animated
story>CG>3D+all scenes
story>cutscenes>3D

Don't tell me to exclude AI because there are other games like that. And why would you do that? The animation flag is here to be able to find games like this one where the 3D is not still images during ADV/NVL parts.

If you have 3D patreon crap game with an inch of gameplay, you will also exclude all 3D animation as animation because the 3D model is used both for the gameplay parts and the ADV/NVL parts.
That's why simply dissing RPG Maker games won't make us any good because if you diss them, you diss 3D games too.

If you exclude "moving around" as animation, well, animation is all about "moving around", even in 2D. You can't separate "moving around" in a 3D game from a RPG Maker game.

I also have this second problem with 3D games is that it's hard to make the distinction between character sprites and CG. I hope I nailed a good definition. I added that the character need to be in the foreground.

You will see, here is my first draft of the guidelines (have fun!):

The animation section has two main axes. Effects are a standalone section.

First, effects such as zooming, shaking and sprite translations are not to be considered animation. Same with lip sync and eyes blinking as it is handled in the last section.
Gameplay is to be excluded too.

1. Content
*Story scenes
*Erotic scenes
Self explanatory.

2. Medium
*Character sprites
A character sprite is a cutout character presented on the foreground which is not embedded in the background CG (BCG). It can comes with a "sub background" e.g. furniture, but the whole is independent from the background CG.
It can happen that a character sprite, while being on the foreground, is embedded in the background by having their feet on the floor while matching the perspective, but either the same sprite is used in a different BCG or the BCG replaces it with different ones.

*CG
CG are illustrations taking up the whole screen. They cannot be decomposed into character sprites (as defined above) and BCG.
In the case where animation is involved, the frames must be separately considered CG.

*Cutscenes
A cutscene is a non interactive animated sequence that breaks the continuity of the game.
Breaking the continuity means that if a game is entirely animated, even if you lose control of the animation, it will not be considered a cutscene because it doesn't interrupt the flow or so little. Think of cutscenes as isolated non interactive animated sequences that pop up suddenly.
Example of games featuring cutscenes are
Katawa Shoujo (cinematics)
Robotics;Notes (Kill Balad victory/defeat)
428 ~Fuusa Sareta Shibuya de~ (movies)
Marco to Ginga Ryuu (minutes long anime)

Under those two main axes, you have to set:

A. Frequency
*Unknown
*Some scenes
*All scenes
Self explanatory.

B. Type of animation

*Unknown
*Does not exist
*Not animated
Self explanatory.

*Frame-by-frame or hand-drawn animation, 2D animation, traditional animation, cel animation
Every frame of animation was drawn independently from each other. You can see this type of animation being used by most 2D anime. Every frame is then put next to each other to create movement.
Big hint: if the animation doesn't use Flat Tints Only, it has a good chance of not being frame-by-frame but vectorial animation. Frame-by-frame animation in the VN medium is not the norm. The norm is vectorial animation.
Examples:
link (cutscenes from Katawa Shoujo)
link (the Viper series in general)
Sisters ~Natsu no Saigo no Hi~
Qualiaffordance
most 2D anime

*Vectorial
Using a pre-existing illustration, it is then post-processed with the help of a software such as E-mote, Live2D or Adobe After Effects. The illustration will be manipulated in all kind of ways to simulate movement. It will be deformed, stretched, parts will be cut and moved around, etc.
New parts can be used to be manipulated the same way (ex: elements from inside a mouth to animate a closed mouth), computer generated objects such as jizz created, or basic drawing used to hide the gaps of the animation, but overall, nothing qualitatively new will be drawn. Therefore, this type of animation doesn't require drawing skills.
One thing that gives away vectorial is that the movement is not natural and the illustration stretched. It gives you a 3D feels even though the original illustration is in 2D.
If a software is used to generate a complete 3D model out of a 2D illustration, flag the animation as 3D instead.
Examples:
>Character sprites
You can see plenty of examples on the official website of E-mote. At the bottom of the page, you can see how such movements are created with the use of a software and never without drawing new illustrations, only through manipulation.
Check also the Highly Animated Sprites tag.
>CG
link (from Love³ -Love Cube-)
link (from Watashi ga Suki nara "Suki" tte Itte!)
As you can see, the illustration is always the same. The posture never changes. It can switch to a new illustration, of course, but it won't have any internal qualitative change during the same scene.

If you have a hard time figuring out the difference between frame-by-frame and vectorial animations, search for Live2D tutorial on youtube such as link, link, and compare it to your memory of what 2D anime look like. You will see why vectorial animation is unatural compared to frame-by-frame animation where you are not stuck with a single illustration but as many different illustrations as you want to decompose the movement. You can see that no real drawing skills are required compared to frame-by-frame animation where you are expected to draw new frames, and not just manipulate the same illustration.
Here is a video about how was done frame-by-frame animation when you couldn't use a computer to do it. Every frame had to be drawn on paper and you flipped the papers to see the movement.

*3D
This type of animation animates 3D models.

*Live action
This type of animation doesn't use drawings but videos featuring real actors.

How would you flag Tokyo Chronos (link) or Necrobarista (link)?Last modified on 2021-11-08 at 02:12
#83 by Ezezin
2021-11-08 at 04:35
< report >What is "sprite translations"? A search on google gives me lots of Spanish-English dictionary/translation websites.

A character sprite is a cutout character which is not embedded in the background CG (BCG).
They cannot be decomposed into character sprites (as defined above) and BCG.
So, with this it seems that everything that it's not a part of a character sprite (or GUI) will be treated as background making it impossible to not have a background if there are sprites. Is this intentional?
Not that I'm complaining if that's the case; but this would mean that on visual novels with No Character Sprites, every illustration should be treated as CG.

*Character sprites
I can agree with that, but I'm worried about the wording. Don't you think you are being a bit technical? Will the common user understand all that?

CG are illustrations taking up the whole screen.
Definitely not the only ones: link, link

Breaking the continuity means that if a game is entirely animated, even if you lose control of the animation, it will not be considered a cutscene because it doesn't interrupt the flow or so little.
I would word that as this:
Breaking the continuity means interrupting the flow of story/erotic scenes or doing so by a large amount. This means that if a game is entirely animated, even if you lose control of the animation, it will not be considered a cutscene.
Easier to read and understand in my opinion.Last modified on 2021-11-08 at 04:55
#84 by Ileca
2021-11-08 at 05:10
< report >translation
It's just 2D sprites being moved around.

So, with this it seems that everything that it's not a part of a character sprite (or GUI) will be treated as background making it impossible to not have a background if there are sprites. Is this intentional?
Not that I'm complaining if that's the case; but this would mean that on visual novels with No Character Sprites, every illustration should be treated as CG.
I don't follow you here. You can have games made of BCG. The one I am reading right now only has photographic BCG (and few illustrations but more like GUI ones). The only problem that might cause is when you have a CG that has no character on them. It will count as BCG. However, without characters on them, it will probably never be animated.
Do I need to write that CG must have characters on them? Will that be a problem?
However, I will amend my definition by adding that you can have sprites over CG or even nothing.
>A character sprite is a cutout character presented on the foreground of either a background CG (BCG), in which it is not embedded, or more rarely, a CG, or nothing.

Definitely not the only ones
Ok, I must say I really wrote the first thing that came to my mind.

I can agree with that, but I'm worried about the wording. Don't you think you are being a bit technical? Will the common user understand all that?
The common user will probably not even read that anyway. >.>
If someone can formulate my ideas better, I won't complain. I know my limits.

Breaking the continuity means interrupting significantly the flow of the scenes. This means that if a game is entirely animated, even if you consistently lose control of the animation, it will not be considered a cutscene.
Last modified on 2021-11-08 at 05:11
#85 by Ezezin
2021-11-08 at 05:30
< report >
The only problem that might cause is when you have a CG that has no character on them. It will count as BCG. However, without characters on them, it will probably never be animated.
This is what I'm talking about. To me is very important to put a definition about that in the CG part. Else we would have people confusing events cg with BGC; even I was confused about that when Only Event CGs got approved (In some cases I didn't even knew when a visual novel should be tagged with it, and the description didn't help).

A character sprite is a cutout character presented on the foreground of either a background CG (BCG), in which it is not embedded, or more rarely, a CG, or nothing.
Sounds good to me.

Do I need to write that CG must have characters on them? Will that be a problem?
We can have cg without characters, like explosions, thunderstorms, a bunch of bodies in gore games, and others. I was thinking on BCG as pictures or images that shows the surroundings where the story takes place and it's not focusing on anything in particular.Last modified on 2021-11-13 at 03:19

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