Voicing: A Proposal

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#51 by beliar
2021-09-22 at 16:36
< report >Not even that. We mean characters that aren't even usually added to the character list. For example:
a) Common no name characters, like Enemy A or Guard B.
b) Characters that don't even have a sprite, and either aren't visually portrayed at all, or are portrayed as shadows/outlines.
c) Male mobs in a gangbang nukige, where we may not even see their faces or learn names. We usually just see dicks, and if they are named, it's something like Male A.
#52 by yorhel
2021-10-12 at 08:20
< report >The proposal in #43 looks good to me. Expressed more formally to clarify the data model to myself:

  VoicedOptions =
{ WhichCharacters: All | Some
, WhichLines: All | Some | OnlyToken

CharacterGroup = Unknown | NotAvailable | Unvoiced | Voiced VoicedOptions

ReleaseVoiced =
{ Protagonist: CharacterGroup
, MainChars: CharacterGroup
, SideChars: CharacterGroup
, Narration: Unknown | NotAvailable | Unvoiced | PartiallyVoiced | FullyVoiced

What is not super clear from #43 but which I defined above is the handling of the "partially voiced" options. A character group is either marked as NotAvailable (i.e. there are no such characters), Unvoiced, or Voiced, and in the latter case you get options for:
- which characters are voiced (All/Some)
- which lines are voiced (All/Some/OnlyToken)
"Fully voiced" in the above model being expressed as all characters and all lines, but of course the form could have a shortcut for that.
#53 by ezezin
2021-10-12 at 09:31
< report >From my limited understanding on pseudo-code:
CharacterGroup = Unknown | NotAvailable | Unvoiced | FullyVoiced | PartiallyVoiced

PartiallyVoiced =
{ SomeLines: bool
, SomeCharacters: bool
, Token: bool

ReleaseVoiced =
{ Protagonist: CharacterGroup
, MainChars: CharacterGroup
, SideChars: CharacterGroup
, Narration: CharacterGroup

The reason is that fully voice already means that all characters and all lines are voiced, the only one that needs clarification is partially voiced.
Also there are games, like Dangan Ronpa Kibou no Gakuen to Zetsubou no Koukousei, that combines token expressions and some voiced lines, that's why I separated them.

Edit: Alright, you can laugh now at mi bad attempt to use pseudo-code like this (;_;), I'll hide under my bed sheets now...Last modified on 2021-10-12 at 09:39
#54 by eacil
2021-10-12 at 10:31
< report >I knew that Yorhel was formalizing this proposal in the back without saying anything and that I should have said something before it's too late...

The current proposal is certainly not good in my book. Yep. Here we go again. The pain in the ass is in the place. :D

Do you guys get that if you remove the dichotomy male/female, then a whole lot of VN will be marked as partially voiced? Every VN with female only will be marked as partially voiced the moment you have an unvoiced male in their group. That's a lot of nukige. The goal of this proposal is to handle the female-only option! That's even why I completely forgot about other genders, being so focused on that peculiar problem.

Examples of main characters being flagged as partially voiced with this proposal:
Tsuma no Niku Ana ni Homestay Suru Macho Ryuugakusei ~Shucchouchuu no Sono Ura de, Tsuma wa Kurobikari Bou kara Afureru Hodo no Hakudaku o Sosogare, Yorokobi ni Michita Acme-gao o Sarashiteita~
Koutetsu no Majo Annerose
Nariyuki → Papakatsu Girls!!
Seitenkan ~Ore no Naka de Ikeba Ii Daro!?~
Karizuma - Kon'ya, Aniyome to Nemasu -
Furyou ni Hamerarete Jusei Suru Kyonyuu Okaa-san ~Iki Jigoku ni Ochita Kazoku no Game~
Bloods ~Inraku no Ketsuzoku 2~

Do I need to keep going?
With side characters, it must be even more egregious because all male characters tend to get flushed there, and a woman is never far away from this place too.

It's a problem quite tricky. My proposal is to keep the dichotomy but widen it.
VN tend to voice the genders that are "romanceable" in priority, and to do or not do the same for the rest of the cast. For male-centered games, females, futanari, otokonoko and trans get voiced.
For female-centered games, I am not really sure but I assume males are logically prefered.
For amare games (kekeke), I am not really sure but genders get an equal treatment, so it's not a problem.
Therefore I propose to have two groups, males on one side, and the rest on the other side: female, futanari, otokonoko, and trans. I don't know about non-binary but I think they probably should fit here.
That way you should have partially voiced only if you have discrepancy in the same gender-group (one female is voiced but not a trans or one character doesn't have all their lines voiced) and not trans-group (females are voiced but males are not, which is the norm for nukige, at least).
SQL wizard should be able to find some stats about that and see if my proposal makes sense.

If it doesn't, the only left option is to have as many checkboxes as gender. Not really good.

Now, I want to defend my first proposal because I think it wasn't well understood. Those two proposals are in fact quite similar now that we normalized the categories (main, side, etc.) and options (unvoiced, full, etc.).
Let's say we accept the male vs female/etc. dichotomy. We get back to Beliar's t16991.31.
For a typical nukige, we will have on the release page:
Male protagonist(s) = Unvoiced
Female/etc. protagonist(s) = No female/etc. protagonist(s)
Main male character(s) = Unvoiced or No main male character(s)
Main female/etc. character(s) = Fully
Side male character(s) = Unvoiced or No side male character(s)
Side female/etc. character(s) = Fully or No side female/etc. character(s)
Narration = Unvoiced

This sounds plausible and probably common, right?

With my proposal, you only check who is voiced, which are the same categories as Beliar's proposal:

[x]No one (disable everything else)
[x]Male protagonist(s)
[x]Female/etc. protagonist(s)
[x]Main male character(s)
[x]Main female/etc. character(s)
[x]Side male character(s)
[x]Side female/etc. character(s)

I added an Unknown checkbox which is pretty telling that this part is incomplete and need contribution. I don't see the need for more than that and see information such as
Female/etc. protagonist(s) = No female/etc. protagonist(s)
Main male character(s) = No main male character(s)
Side female/etc. character(s) = No side female/etc. character(s)
or even
Something = Unknown
as unnecessary bloating. With the unknown checkbox, you know something that is not marked is missing (or not). As for knowing that something is not voiced, well, I don't think people care to see that because they can deduce that from its absence.
If that really really matters, then you can bloat my proposal with selects:
*Male protagonist(s) OR No male protagonist(s) OR Unknown
*Female/etc. protagonist(s) OR No female/etc. protagonist(s) OR Unknown
*Main male character(s) OR No main male character(s) OR Unknown
*Main female character(s) OR No main female character(s) OR Unknown
*Side male character(s) OR No side male character(s) OR Unknown
*Side female character(s) OR No side female character(s) OR Unknown

Anyway, where my proposal really differs from Beliar's is that I only put ONE option across all categories.
[x]Every character (disable the other choices)
[x]Not every character
[x]Not every line
[x]Token expressions

I am asking you: once you know which categories of people are voiced, how much chance do you have that these groups will get a different voicing treatment from each other? How much chance is that, that if you check
[x]Main female/etc. character(s)
[x]Side female/etc. character(s)
the first group will get a different treatment than the second group? Do you know many VN where side females get suddenly partially voiced when the main characters will be fully voiced?
I only met this situation once, and it was a Liar-soft: Tokeidai no Jeanne ~Jeanne à la tour d'horloge~. In this VN, women are fully voiced but men have half their lines voiced. This is the only VN I know where Beliar's proposal does its job at showing precisely the difference. The rest of the time, it will be consistent across all categories i.e. it will be either unvoiced, unknown or consistently fully/partial/token. In this peculiar case, my proposal will show [x]Not every line.
I am asking: do we need this granularity knowing it will be for edge cases only?

In the end, to exemplify my proposal like I did with the other proposal, mine will show on the release:
[x]Main female/etc. character(s)
[x]Side female/etc. character(s)

[x]Every character

(and *Unvoiced narration)

As you can see, you have only one option resuming how the chosen voiced groups are voiced.
If [x]Unknown is selected, the WHAT IS VOICED still refers to the non-unknown categories. This can be adapted on Beliar's proposal to get rid of every line which is either unknown, non existing or unvoiced, and which will unnecessarily bloat this section every time. Like I said, our proposals pretty much differ only when it comes to select what is voiced, as Beliar wants to fill this information for every category when I just want a general input across all the voiced categories.

To be honest, we need a SQL wizard (someone, go catch Rampaa ASAAAAP!) to do some stats about:
*how are gender voiced relatively to each other? Are males always separately voiced from the other genders? Or to put it differently: are females, futanari, otokonoko, and trans voiced differently when they are part of the same casting? What about non-binary? Do they get the "female treatment"?
*how much VN are like Jeanne, where voiced groups have different voicing treatment?

Maybe not. Maybe we shouldn't care about barely existing mobs that mayhap only have a single line... I would like Eacil to comment on that.
Yes, side characters are side characters. "Makes an appearance" and unlisted characters should be forgotten imo. They are so negligible that even if they insert some discrepancy, they are not important enough to care. However, they could mess with the side character group if a single one of them miss a line.

That's all.
#55 by ezezin
2021-10-12 at 13:13
< report >Just a thing to think about before I go to sleep. Remember that there are characters with Unknown Gender Protagonist or characters whose gender is a spoiler in itself.
It's not like I don't like that proposal, but should releases have spoilery information when they never had it? It's not like we (or maybe myself alone, if I'm the only one who feels this way) could adapt or learn how to mark them correctly; it's just that it would be a little weird, that's all I'm saying.Last modified on 2021-10-12 at 13:13
#56 by beliar
2021-10-12 at 18:59
< report >Hmmm, I'm not against Eacil's proposal. As he has said, this might flush out a few strange cases where there might be discrepancies, but it does simplify the system and make less work for the contributors. Though I'm not sure I agree with your desire to remove the Unknown status from the characters. I also feel that at least the protagonists should have a "No protagonist" staus for reasons I have mentioned previously.

That said, I do tentatively agree by classifying the characters as Males and Everyone else, if we are going with the character dichotomy. Because the more you think about such things, the less useful the discussion becomes.

Remember that there are characters with Unknown Gender Protagonist or characters whose gender is a spoiler in itself.
And that's why my proposal in t16991.31 has spoiler boxes for the protagonists (cannot imagine needing spoiler boxes for any other character group).
#57 by ezezin
2021-10-12 at 21:51
< report >After thinking (a lot) about Eacil's proposal and reading what Beliar said in #56, I'm fine with it too as long as this is available in some way:
spoiler boxes for the protagonists

Just a question: What about Unknown Gender Protagonist, Protagonist Gender Choice, Love Interest's Gender Choice and Player as a Character ? Will they be in the same group as "female, futanari, otokonoko and trans" or the "unknown" selection would be enough for them?

Edit 1: Search filter of VN with those tags.

Edit 2: Another way of avoiding the spoiler stuff and all those genderless/unknown gender/gender choice/player as characters is having one protagonist group and only separate genders for main and side characters. Although I don't know how common is having voice acting for only females/males protags in VNs with multiple protagonists:

*Protagonist(s) OR No Protagonist(s) OR Unknown
*Main male character(s) OR No main male character(s) OR Unknown
*Main female character(s) OR No main female character(s) OR Unknown
*Side male character(s) OR No side male character(s) OR Unknown
*Side female character(s) OR No side female character(s) OR Unknown

With this we won't have to worry about those situations and we can ignore Love Interest's Gender Choice (just 15 visual novels, nothing important).
Btw, don't forget about voiced narration.

Edit 3: Filter about visual novels with multiple protagonists and only one gender is voiced (or at least those that have seiyuu information).

Edit 4:
how much VN are like Jeanne, where voiced groups have different voicing treatment?
It's not a SQL search, but here is a search using VNDB search feature with female and male characters (Both males and females). The problem is that there are a lot of vn that have side characters without Seiyuu information, so those filters are not very useful.Last modified on 2021-10-13 at 02:45
#58 by eacil
2021-10-18 at 08:13
< report >Found another cute problem with both of our models: how are we supposed to search? Concretely, how do you search for fully voiced VN? Or female-only voiced nukige? Those are pretty sensible options.
Even with a datum across categories of characters, it only allows us to search for aforementioned checked categories. Even if you map everything by inputting "no characters" and "unvoiced characters" for every category x gender, the modularity of this model wouldn't allow us to deduce global results. That could be programmatically deduced I guess?

I also forgot to say that, in case we can't group genders together, my model can absorb them by adding as many checkboxes as you want under each category (protag, main, side). It wouldn't be such a problem because
1/ only the form would suffer from the bloat, the releases would still only display which gender would be voiced (x protag/main/side)
2/ it wouldn't be a pita to use because you would only have to check the boxes that are voiced
2b/ if you multiply the checkboxes by 3 with "no characters" and "unvoiced characters", it becomes a little more painful though, but you can make 3 columns and wisely place some "check all" shortcuts here and there

Not today that we will tackle the problem. :(


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