Voicing: A Proposal

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#76 by Ileca
2021-10-19 at 10:40
< report >Ah yeah, I see what you mean.
For gender choice, you consider them checking the category you can choose from. If it's unvoiced male or female, it becomes
Male protagonist(s) = Not Voiced
Female/etc. protagonist(s) = Not voiced

Player as a Character: ah yeah, it's god damn annoying. Even if the sex is known, the gender being the one of the player, it can be anything. It's only 17 VN though. If we keep the dichotomy male vs female/etc. it will be exactly like for gender choice. If we don't, I think checking thousands boxes for 17 characters isn't that much of a problem?

As for unknown, still the same problem. We probably need this third category as it is also not limited to protagonists anyway.
#77 by Ezezin
2021-10-19 at 11:14
< report >Interesting, and here I though this would be a problem for protagonists only...

I have an idea (I'm borrowing the name "unclassified" for this):

ReleaseVoiced =
{ MaleProtagonist: CharacterGroup
, FemaleProtagonist: CharacterGroup
, UnclassifiedProtagonist**: CharacterGroup

, MainMaleChars: CharacterGroup
, MainFemaleChars: CharacterGroup
, UnclassifiedMainChars**: CharacterGroup

, SideMaleChars: CharacterGroup
, SideFemaleChars: CharacterGroup
, UnclassifiedSideChars**: CharacterGroup

, Narration: CharacterGroup
}
--------------------------------------------------------
** Rules of "UnclassifiedProtagonist", "MainUnclassifiedChars" and "SideUnclassifiedChars":

-- Those will have "NoCharacter" as default and won't have the "Unknown" option, this way users won't
need to fill that information every time when it's not necessary.
Or, for these 3 cases only, you could make "Unknown" = "NoCharacter".

-- Of course, those entries with "NoCharacter" won't be counted for the Full Voiced and Partially Voiced
information when doing the automated process for the rest of the release information.

-- Also, users won't be able to search for them as "NoCharacter" using the vndb filters,
only as "FullyVoiced", "PartiallyVoiced" or "NotVoiced"

What do you think?Last modified on 2021-10-19 at 12:34
#78 by Ileca
2021-10-19 at 21:05
< report >I probably do not agree with the lack of unknown option for that group. I don't see why we should give them a different treatment. Same for not counting them toward the global voice information.
If you fear it will screw the global voice information, know that a character with no line using language should not be counted. Maybe even human language if we want to be strict. If a mascot talks, it should be counted. Also, remember that "make an appearance" characters don't count at all.
Nothing should have defaults other than unknown. If you fear it will be a bother, you can handle that with sensible autofill buttons. Like a button toggling every "unknown" to "no characters".
#79 by Ezezin
2021-10-20 at 00:36
< report >
If a mascot talks, it should be counted.
Ohh right, I forgot those.
If I understood you, any animal/mascot with voiced written lines (being human language or animal sounds) should count towards "Fully Voiced" except if those voices are background animal voices ("Partially Voiced", maybe put them under BGV). Is that what are you trying to say?

Same for not counting them toward the global voice information.
My bad, I didn't make myself clear. What I tried to say is that if they are marked with "NoCharacter", then they shouldn't count towards the rest of the voice information. Of course, if they are marked with "Fully voiced", "Partially Voiced" or "Not voiced", they definitely should be counted.
The reason for this is to avoid unnecessary lines in the code itself; logically it won't change anything. When doing the different combinations, you will see that "No character" is only useful for marking "No characters" in a bigger group.

Like a button toggling every "unknown" to "no characters".
That could work too.Last modified on 2021-10-20 at 01:06
#80 by Ezezin
2021-10-21 at 05:17
< report >I found another problem: Interactive Movie if we follow what Eacil wrote in #72
-"not every line" if those voices are fully formed sentences which are relevant text-wise but are just not transcribed
Are there any VN/movie hybrid where characters are voiced without written lines?
This reminds me, did you reached an agreement on when to include movies in the DB?

I was about to write about voiced cutscenes too, but that can be easily covered using both voices information and animations, if you decided to include a cutscenes selection in t16987.Last modified on 2021-10-21 at 05:37
#81 by Ileca
2021-10-21 at 05:35
< report >Wrong thread I guess but that is handled either by cutscenes or story and live movie or hand-drawn animation.

If I understood you, any animal/mascot with voiced written lines (being human language or animal sounds) should count towards "Fully Voiced" except if those voices are background animal voices ("Partially Voiced", maybe put them under BGV). Is that what are you trying to say?
I can't think of any "background animal voices". I guess you could have non h BGV like suffering. I don't think we should count animal sounds because those are rarely voiced. I don't want to penalize games because they didn't voiced their dogs or pokemons. If it's language, it should count, if it's sounds, it shouldn't.

What I tried to say is that if they are marked with "NoCharacter", then they shouldn't count towards the rest of the voice information.
Well, that applies to everybody.

Btw, I thought that people might also want to search if a specific category (protagonist, main, side) is entirely/partially voiced. Like people not caring about VN with unvoiced side characters and just caring if main characters are (and maybe protagonists). You could exclude side characters from the search, for example.Last modified on 2021-10-21 at 05:52
#82 by Ezezin
2021-10-21 at 05:52
< report >
I don't want to penalize games because they didn't voiced their dogs or pokemons.
But since I was a kid I always wanted to become a Pokimon trainer! *sob* *sob*...

Jokes aside, I agree with that.

if a specific category (protagonist, main, side) is entirely/partially voiced.
It can be done automatically as stated in t16991.59 Any character group that you can think of can be done automatically with male/female protag, male/female main chars and male/female side chars.
Edit: And with "Unclassified" characters we could have even more combinations.Last modified on 2021-10-21 at 05:56
#83 by Ezezin
2021-10-21 at 09:55
< report >So far, the data model would look something like this:

CharacterGroup = Unknown | NoCharacters | NotVoiced | Voiced

Voiced =
{ Characters = All | Some
, Lines = All | Some
, (If Lines != 'All') Token expressions = Bool
, BGV = Bool
, VoicedThoughts = Bool (If we are revamping the system, might as well add that tag here)
}

ReleaseVoiced =
{ MaleProtagonist: CharacterGroup
, FemaleProtagonist: CharacterGroup
, UnclassifiedProtagonist: CharacterGroup

, MainMaleChars: CharacterGroup
, MainFemaleChars: CharacterGroup
, UnclassifiedMainChars: CharacterGroup

, SideMaleChars: CharacterGroup
, SideFemaleChars: CharacterGroup
, UnclassifiedSideChars: CharacterGroup

, Narration: Unknown | NoNarration | NotVoiced | PartiallyVoiced | FullyVoiced
}

Extra stuff:

-- Button for toggling every "Unknown" to "NoCharacters" = [X]
-- Button for toggling every "Unknown" to "NotVoiced" = [X] (useful when dealing with male characters in Nukiges)

-- After filling the "Voiced" selection:

If (Characters == 'All' && Lines == 'All' ) {
CharacterGroup = 'FullyVoiced',
}
Else {
CharacterGroup = 'PartiallyVoiced',
}

-- The data model should be the same for ero-scenes if available.

I guess we discussed everything about the data model, right? From Players as a Character to Animals.
What we need now is:
*how are gender voiced relatively to each other? Are males always separately voiced from the other genders? Or to put it differently: are females, futanari, otokonoko, and trans voiced differently when they are part of the same casting? What about non-binary? Do they get the "female treatment"?
Last modified on 2021-10-22 at 10:13
#84 by rampaa
2021-10-21 at 15:20
< report >
2. What do people want to search for? (not an easy question, but something we need to work out)
In case feedback is welcome, here's what I would be interested to know through this new voice<->release model:

"Is there no main female character to begin with?"
"Are all (main) female characters fully voiced all the time?"
"Are all (main) female characters fully voiced during their h-scenes only?"
"Are all (main) female characters fully voiced during non-h-scenes only?"
"Is the male protagonist fully voiced all the time?"
"Is the male protagonist only voiced during non-h-scenes?"
"Does this thing have real voice acting or is it just token expressions?"
"Are all characters voiced all the time?"
#85 by Yorhel
2021-10-31 at 12:00
< report >So this went from a complex proposal to a simple proposal and now we're back to an overly complex proposal. The number of people involved in this discussion and the constant changes don't inspire confidence. :(

To go on from #83:
CharacterGroup = Unknown | NoCharacters | NotVoiced | Voiced
Okay, rather more complicated than a boolean but makes sense.

	, Lines = All | Some
, (If Lines != 'All') Token expressions = Bool
Equivalent to but more simply modelled as
	, Lines = All | SomeWithToken | SomeWithoutToken

	, VoicedThoughts = Bool (If we are revamping the system, might as well add that tag here)
This is about the protagonist, right? Are other character's thoughts ever voiced?

	{ MaleProtagonist: CharacterGroup
, FemaleProtagonist: CharacterGroup
, UnclassifiedProtagonist: CharacterGroup
AAAAARGH. I must have missed something, why are we now splitting up the protagonist again? I liked that it was a single option.

eacil Ileca came with this "Female" and "non-Female" distinction to "solve" the gender issues (it's still extremely ugly and biased against otome games, but meh), so why are we back with Male/Female?
And are these "unclassified" characters interesting/important enough to warrant their own section?
#86 by Ezezin
2021-10-31 at 13:47
< report >
This is about the protagonist, right? Are other character's thoughts ever voiced?
Scratch that if you want, It was just an idea I had at the moment. The idea was to be applied at a release level instead of character level (a bool separated from all that stuff) but now that I think about it, it's not that important to include it in the voice information.

AAAAARGH. I must have missed something, why are we now splitting up the protagonist again? I liked that it was a single option.
I agree with that, and in #73 I stated my reasons, but I don't know why Eacil still wanted to separate genders for protagonists.

so why are we back with Male/Female
Oops, my bad, I forgot that when I wrote the proposal. But you get the idea: Male/non-male, Male/Female and others, etc.

Edit (off topic):
The number of people involved in this discussion and the constant changes don't inspire confidence.
For better or for worst, people stopping in giving feedback or proposals being in the dark is something that happens in this database quite frequently (in no particular order): t3617.2461, t3314.1889, Changeable Voice Language, t16987, t12533.41, t17177
Polls and announcements, on the other hand, tends to be very active.

Edit 2:
And are these "unclassified" characters interesting/important enough to warrant their own section?
I agree with Eacil on this one. Maybe it's not explicitly clear, but we are not defining only voices, but also character groups. With this system we can search for both in any combination we want. That's why the proposal got a bit complex again at some point and this is why we have a "no character" selection in the first place.
The name on the other hand... I know it is not a good one, but that's not important at the moment.Last modified on 2021-10-31 at 15:53
#87 by Ileca
2021-10-31 at 19:47
< report >
AAAAARGH.
Feel my pain for once.

Ileca came with this "Female" and "non-Female" distinction to "solve" the gender issues (it's still extremely ugly and biased against otome games, but meh), so why are we back with Male/Female?
Uh? I proposed cis-male and female/futanari/otokonoko/trans/non-binary(possibly) categories. We used Male vs Female because writing "Female/etc." was too damn annoying.

To me, this proposal is in a deadlock because there is no guarantee that implementing those two categories (now three with unclassified) will work unless it is checked against the current data. I am not very knowledgeable when it comes to otoge or non-JVN with complex casting and therefore can't predict accurately if the data model we are discussing will apply to the data given that I have not a good overview of said data.
The proposal is complex because the data is complex and you always have some edge case coming to light that needs to be integrated.
I have not much faith in this dichotomy to actually work. We need fujoshi, otome and EVN fans to butt in asap if no stats can be done.

I must have missed something, why are we now splitting up the protagonist again? I liked that it was a single option.
My question is more like why do you want to merge genders for protagonists in the first place? Why the different treatment from the other categories? It was discussed at the very beginning that you can have multiple protagonists and that simili-NTR VN can have a voiced female protagonist and an unvoiced male protagonist. If you don't make the distinction, those VN will be marked as partially voiced.

And are these "unclassified" characters interesting/important enough to warrant their own section?
You have 348 voiced and 591 unvoiced characters fitting that category. Seems non negligible to me. It's good to have a category to take care of all the characters who don't fit. Non-binary characters MAY even be put there if they don't fit the two other categories.

I would like an update on the animation proposal. I feel like it is done but without you saying anything, I don't know if you shelved it or if it is underway. It looks like you are focusing on the voice proposal when the animation proposal should take precedence like it's done. If it's not, it would be good to know what the issues are because I am sure they can easily be fixed when we are this close from the end.
#88 by Yorhel
2021-10-31 at 20:02
< report >
I would like an update on the animation proposal.
Oh, yeah, that one feels done to me, ready to be implemented. I was hoping to implement both the voicing and animation proposals at the same time to avoid double edits on half of the database, but with this voicing proposal being what it is, I should probably change that plan.
#89 by Ileca
2021-10-31 at 20:23
< report >Imagine merging the two proposals when you could write two announcements. TWO announcements! How many announcements do you think we have every year? Do you think you can waste such an opportunity like that???

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