Voicing: A Proposal

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#26 by eacil
2021-09-18 at 23:06
< report >There is the problem of otokonoko being voiced but being counted as males. Meaning those games will be marked as partially voiced the moment there will be a "virile" male character at their level, and we don't want that.
The big problem is the difference between sex and gender. Otokonoko are voiced regardless of their gender. But if you use gender to categorize, you won't be able to get at first glance in which category the otokonoko was put. Is this guy a female or male main character? Also, gender is something pretty often N/A, especially with otokonoko, despite the trans community wanting to appropriate them.
On the other hand, non binary can be of both biological sex so... opposite problem.

;__________;

Edit: honestly, with my proposal, you could subdivide the first category (who is voiced) a lot without damages. In the end, you will only show which categories were checked.
Edit2: like adding an Otokonoko and Other gender choice options for each level (protag, main, side).Last modified on 2021-09-18 at 23:35
#27 by beliar
2021-09-18 at 23:09
< report >I think Eacil is having a stroke... Call doctor Killgood!

Anyway, does your model consider the "WHAT IS VOICED" section attributed to each character group or global. From your proposal it seems to be latter, while my proposal is to have the former.

For example, in a hypothetical game you could mark:
[x]Male protagonist - Unvoiced
[x]Female protagonist - Voiced
[x]Main male characters - Unvoiced
[x]Main female characters - Not every line
and so on...

if no one can give me an example of a game with full narration
I'm pretty sure Full voiced narration is much more common than a partial one.

Moreover, like in my original proposal, I think we have to have an ability to mark the lack of a certain character group, otherwise we risk people thinking the data simply hasn't been entered yet.
For example:
[x]Female protagonist(s) - None
or
[x]Narration - None

In the absolute, this section could be removed and handled with the Not every line box.
I agree with you on this.

So what happens if you have, say, a voiced protagonist who is neither male nor female?
Well, my original proposal simply named the Protagonist, and separated the female protagonist in cases of Multiprotag games. That would solve the problem of genderless protags.

moans, expressions a la Danganronpa
Not a good choice, because different parts of the game have either grunts or full voiced sections. So, you either would have to be able to select multiple options from "What is voiced", or better yet, simply go with [x]Not every line.
#28 by eacil
2021-09-18 at 23:23
< report >
Well, my original proposal simply named the Protagonist, and separated the female protagonist in cases of Multiprotag games. That would solve the problem of genderless protags.
lol man, that doesn't solve the problem of having other gender in your main cast at all. XDDDD
Don't miss my post above yours.

Anyway, does your model consider the "WHAT IS VOICED" section attributed to each character group or global. From your proposal it seems to be latter, while my proposal is to have the former.
Yes, global. Pretty simple this way, right? If we go with your proposal (but we will go with mine anyway -__-), I suggest you consider subdividing partially voiced like I did and remove Voiced only during the H-scenes.

Not a good choice, because different parts of the game have either grunts or full voiced sections. So, you either would have to be able to select multiple options from "What is voiced", or better yet, simply go with [x]Not every line.
Yes, [x] means checkbox. Meaning you can select both Not every line and Token expressions for your case.
#29 by historyeraser
2021-09-19 at 01:22
< report >#26 As far as i can recall, otokonoko and mtf transgenderism are usually considered considered different/mutually exclusive concepts, at least in the modern age. So I can honestly see the issue you are describing being (mostly) restricted to older games.

In most modern games it's either clearly stated outright or suggested that otokonoko characters are either see themselves/are depicted by the story as male, or they are depicted as a "third gender" essentially. There might be some VNs where a transgender character is mistaken for an otokonoko in universe, but I don't know if this is a common trend either.Last modified on 2021-09-19 at 05:01
#30 by beliar
2021-09-19 at 09:43
< report >
ol man, that doesn't solve the problem of having other gender in your main cast at all. XDDDD
This is neither the time nor the place to discuss the gender identities of otokonokos, but if you want my opinion, they are definitely male and should be treated as male protagonists/heroes. In essence, what the HistoryEraser said.

Yes, global. Pretty simple this way, right?
Yeah, no. Going global is no better than the current situation. In fact, the current situation is better, because the current options do not pretend to be something they are not. Your proposal pretends to clarify the voicing options, but infuses even more confusion. You cannot even mark the Vns as having non-voiced protagonist with voiced heroines when going with your option. Global flag is one or the other.
#31 by beliar
2021-09-19 at 10:03
< report >[x]Unvoiced (disables other choices)

[x]Male protagonist(s) (not checking results in “Unknown”) [x]spoiler
-----[x]No male protagonist(s) (disables other choices)
-----[x]Unvoiced (disables other choices)
-----[x]Fully (disables other choices)
-----[x]Not every character
-----[x]Not every line
-----[x]Token expressions
[x]Female protagonist(s) (not checking results in “Unknown”) [x]spoiler
-----[x]No female protagonist(s) (disables other choices)
-----[x]Unvoiced (disables other choices)
-----[x]Fully (disables other choices)
-----[x]Not every character
-----[x]Not every line
-----[x]Token expressions
[x]Main male character(s) (not checking results in “Unknown”)
-----[x]No main male character(s) (disables other choices)
-----[x]Unvoiced (disables other choices)
-----[x]Fully (disables other choices)
-----[x]Not every character
-----[x]Not every line
-----[x]Token expressions
[x]Main female character(s) (not checking results in “Unknown”)
-----[x]No main female character(s) (disables other choices)
-----[x]Unvoiced (disables other choices)
-----[x]Fully (disables other choices)
-----[x]Not every character
-----[x]Not every line
-----[x]Token expressions
[x]Side male character(s) (not checking results in “Unknown”)
-----[x]No side male character(s) (disables other choices)
-----[x]Unvoiced (disables other choices)
-----[x]Fully (disables other choices)
-----[x]Not every character
-----[x]Not every line
-----[x]Token expressions
[x]Side female character(s) (not checking results in “Unknown”)
-----[x]No side female character(s) (disables other choices)
-----[x]Unvoiced (disables other choices)
-----[x]Fully (disables other choices)
-----[x]Not every character
-----[x]Not every line
-----[x]Token expressions
[x]Narration (not checking results in “Unknown”)
-----[x]No narration (disables other choices)
-----[x]Unvoiced (disables other choices)
-----[x]Fully (disables other choices)
-----[x]Partially

Alternative proposal: remove the protagonist split between males/females, as the split will be pretty useless for the vast majority of games and would basically only be used for the multiprotag games.

In this case we wouldn't even need spoiler tags anymore, as I cannot imagine a case where they would be needed.

[x]Protagonist(s) (not checking results in “Unknown”)
-----[x]No protagonist(s) (disables other choices)
-----[x]Unvoiced (disables other choices)
-----[x]Fully (disables other choices)
-----[x]Not every character
-----[x]Not every line
-----[x]Token expressionsLast modified on 2021-09-19 at 12:39
#32 by naiohoras
2021-09-19 at 10:44
< report >I'm guessing we should not tick the corresponding checkboxes if it's Female Protagonist for a Short Time or Male Protagonist for a Short Time? those tags are child tag of Multiple Protagonists and respective protagonist tags so they might confuse users if not clarified.
#33 by beliar
2021-09-19 at 10:55
< report >
I'm guessing we should not tick the corresponding checkboxes if it's Female Protagonist for a Short Time or Male Protagonist for a Short Time?
My idea is that they shouldn't be checked. In those instances those characters are not marked as protagonists in the character list. For example, Rin is not labeled as a Protagonist in Fate/Stay Night, so respectively she shouldn't be treated as a protagonist in the voicing options.
#34 by mrkew
2021-09-19 at 11:35
< report >So the split between prominent side characters and unlisted 5-line mob chars was cancelled?
#35 by beliar
2021-09-19 at 11:54
< report >Eh, I'm not sure we need to bother with them. It expands the options even more and Eacil seems to be against including them in the list. This is not final, of course, but I wonder what others think about those faceless mods: exclude them altogether, merge them with the side characters or create yet another separate section for them?
#36 by naiohoras
2021-09-19 at 12:07
< report >how about spoilerous character? like Saihara Shuuichi (which I created earlier) in New Dangan Ronpa V3 Minna no Koroshiai Shingakki? (it's okay to see it, Beliar. you've already played this game)
should I tick the voiced male protagonist in this case? or do we need another 'spoiler' checkbox?Last modified on 2021-09-19 at 12:11
#37 by beliar
2021-09-19 at 12:24
< report >Why do you have to make everything so complicated? Just be the culprit... er I mean, make everything simple.

Deeper into the forest, the more trees there are...

It seems we do need the spoiler checkboxes, at least for the protagonists. Not sure about the other groups. Could there be a Vn with a single female main character, whose presence is a spoiler?

Edit: Added the spoiler protagonist checkboxes to the proposal.

An alternative would be to return to my original draft and not splitting the protagonist roles between male and female, and creating a specific instance where only female protagonists are voiced in a multi-protag games. It would result in less clutter in the form, though Eacil for some reason dislikes that.
Though, now that I think we already have the proposed "Not every character" checkbox, so we do we really even need the male/female split at all...Last modified on 2021-09-19 at 12:36
#38 by naiohoras
2021-09-19 at 12:52
< report >
Not sure about the other groups.
umm... link link
#39 by ezezin
2021-09-19 at 12:59
< report >Do we really need to clarify every possible scenario for voice acting? Personally, I feel that releases should have just enough information for the most important topics of a visual novel so users can make a decision about playing/buying a game with just a quick glance at them or compare them with other releases.

Unless I'm mistaken on what was the idea behind a release's information, I feel that what Beliar proposed in #31 would defeat that purpose. I'm not saying is a bad idea, actually I would like that kind of information somewhere in the db, it's just that maybe it would look better in the vn main page (maybe under the character's information tab) or in the character's page.

If you ask me, I liked the original proposal the most, separating voice options between protagonist|main characters|side characters. I don't think we need to distinguish between gender; we already have tags and character pages for that.

Edit: ohhh... you already edited your first post.Last modified on 2021-09-19 at 13:01
#40 by beliar
2021-09-19 at 13:02
< report >
umm... link link
I mean, none of these are necessary spoilers. The fact that for example Both Male and Female Love Interests is set to spoiler, doesn't mean the character's presence in the VN is spoilerous. The only case where I can see there being spoilers, is if there is only one main male/female character in the game, and their very presence is a spoiler. Anything else does not need a spoiler tag.

If you ask me, I liked the original proposal the most, separating voice options between protagonist|main characters|side characters.
I agree that we probably don't necessarily need to split the protagonist, but do you think we don't even need to split the main/side characters either for simplicity's sake? I... could be convinced of that.Last modified on 2021-09-19 at 13:05
#41 by naiohoras
2021-09-19 at 13:26
< report >
Though, now that I think we already have the proposed "Not every character" checkbox, so we do we really even need the male/female split at all.
this have my vote. the number of protagonists in most cases would be one or two, or still at least be countable by a hand in the worst case. and I cannot see a case where male protagonist is voiced but not the female protag.
so it's either [x]Not every character or [x]Only female protagonist voiced, not going all the way by splitting it.
#42 by eacil
2021-09-19 at 16:36
< report >The problem with gender/sex ruins the dichotomy male/female.
You want otokonoko marked as males? The thing is, they are vocally treated as females...
Let's say you have a main male character and a main otokonoko character. Only the otokonoko is voiced because he is a love interest (having the "woman's treatment"). Main male character(s) will be marked as partially voiced even though the logic would be to treat otokonoko as female characters, allowing both sides to be rightfully marked as fully voiced. Example: link, link, link etc check link.
And what about newhalves? Non binary ? Futanari ?
Like I said, if you use biological sex, you won't be able to handle non binaries, and if you use gender, this will become too complicated and unpredictable.
Having "[x]Only female protagonist/main/side voiced" only will be extremely reductive.

Food for thought. I am going to bed. :)
#43 by beliar
2021-09-19 at 16:48
< report >Well, it just proves the Ezezin's point that it's too complicated to deal with the whole male/female split, and we should simplify the system to protagonist | Main Characters | Side Characters | Narration.

So, an alternative proposal to t16991.31:

[x]Unvoiced (disables other choices)

[x]Protagonist(s) (not checking results in “Unknown”)
-----[x]No protagonist(s) (disables other choices)
-----[x]Unvoiced (disables other choices)
-----[x]Fully (disables other choices)
-----[x]Not every character
-----[x]Not every line
-----[x]Token expressions
[x]Main Character(s) (not checking results in “Unknown”)
-----[x]No main character(s) (disables other choices) (while rare, there are experimental VNs that have no other characters other than the protagonist)
-----[x]Unvoiced (disables other choices)
-----[x]Fully (disables other choices)
-----[x]Not every character
-----[x]Not every line
-----[x]Token expressions
[x]Side character(s) (not checking results in “Unknown”)
-----[x]No side character(s) (disables other choices)
-----[x]Unvoiced (disables other choices)
-----[x]Fully (disables other choices)
-----[x]Not every character
-----[x]Not every line
-----[x]Token expressions
[x]Narration (not checking results in “Unknown”)
-----[x]No narration (disables other choices)
-----[x]Unvoiced (disables other choices)
-----[x]Fully (disables other choices)
-----[x]Partially
#44 by ezezin
2021-09-19 at 19:46
< report >Using the protagonist example Beliar posted, since Yorhel doesn't like selection boxes very much, It could be implemented as a drop-down list:

Voices --- Protagonist: | Unknown (default) 🔽| No protagonist | Unvoiced | Partially voiced | Fully voiced | <= story | ero scenes (if +18 is selected in age rating) => | Unknown (default) 🔽| No protagonist | Unvoiced | Partially voiced | Fully voiced |

And if partially voiced is chosen, it will appear the 3 selection boxes related to it, instead of disabling them every time the other choices are selected:

-----[x]Not every character
-----[x]Not every line
-----[x]Token expressions (may I request a short description for this one?)

The same could be said for every other character except narration, since that one doesn't have those 3 options.Last modified on 2021-09-19 at 19:51
#45 by beliar
2021-09-19 at 19:55
< report >That is actually a very nice idea, Ezezin! Drop down menus would actually look more aesthetic than checkboxes.
#46 by ezezin
2021-09-22 at 12:52
< report >A bit late, but if Yorhel doesn't mind the extra work, what I said in #44 could be modified to be more aesthetically appealing.

1. We could choose characters in a drop-down list like we do for language and media. After that, another list will show where we can select the voice options.

Voices: | - Add voices - 🔽| Protagonist(s) | Main character(s) | Side character(s) | Narration |
| Unknown (default) 🔽| No protagonist | Unvoiced | Partially voiced | Fully voiced |

| - Add voices - 🔽| Protagonist(s) | Main character(s) | Side character(s) | Narration |
| Unknown (default) 🔽| No main character(s) | Unvoiced | Partially voiced | Fully voiced |

| - Add voices - 🔽| Protagonist(s) | Main character(s) | Side character(s) | Narration |

If one or more of those options are not filled, it would be the same as leaving them as "Unknown"

2. If it could be done automatically and Yorhel wants to do it, we won't need the "Unknown" option if the first point is implemented; if not, forget that I proposed this (I mean, the difference is just two clicks when editing)

| Unvoiced (default) 🔽| Partially voiced | Fully voiced | No protagonist |

3. I don't think we need to set "No protagonist(s)", "No main character(s)", etc. again for ero-scenes. If, for some reason, it is still needed for searching, this could be done automatically, but I don't see the point in having two "no protagonist(s)".

<= story | ero scenes (if +18 is selected in age rating and "No protagonist" is not selected) => | Unknown or N/A (default) 🔽| Unvoiced | Partially voiced | Fully voiced |

4. Like you saw in 3, I added "N/A" alongside "unknown" in ero-scences in case there aren't a single protagonist/main character/side character who participates in sex scenes (If you don't like it and still want an option for it, read the fifth point).

5. I don't think we need to be more specific since we already have Not Sexually Involved, but I understand if people want a similar option for releases (if you liked the fourth point, ignore this):

| Unknown (default) 🔽| Unvoiced | Partially voiced | Fully voiced | Not sexually involved |

We may need to clarify that one character taking part in a sex scene is enough for choosing a ero-scene voice option and "not sexually involved" should be used if there isn't a single character of a group of protagonists/main characters/side characters participating in a sex scene.Last modified on 2021-09-22 at 14:10
#47 by beliar
2021-09-22 at 15:43
< report >
I don't think we need to be more specific since we already have Not Sexually Involved, but I understand if people want a similar option for releases (if you liked the fourth point, ignore this)
I don't think we need this.

Moreover, we shouldn't forget that if "Partially voiced" is chosen, a new selection should open:
-----[x]Not every character
-----[x]Not every line
-----[x]Token expressions
#48 by mrkew
2021-09-22 at 15:55
< report >So if mob characters are not separate, should a VN that otherwise has all the important side characters voiced as "not every character"?
#49 by beliar
2021-09-22 at 16:27
< report >Maybe not. Maybe we shouldn't care about barely existing mobs that mayhap only have a single line... I would like Eacil to comment on that. In any case, now that we have contracted the characters by not splitting male/female difference, there is enough space to include the faceless mobs without cluttering the interface. But should we do it? Sadly, no one else commented on this matter...
#50 by ezezin
2021-09-22 at 16:30
< report >Just to be sure, are those mobs the "make an appearance" characters?Last modified on 2021-09-22 at 16:36