Coming up with guidelines for comics on VNDB.

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#1 by historyeraser
2021-10-11 at 19:38
< report >(Full title: Spastically trying to come up with guidelines for the inclusion of comics on VNDB)

So I decided to do what you requested and try to come up with a first draft of potential guidelines to use in order for the mods to determine what digital comics are included in VNDB. I definitely don't intend the following to be final, and I need feedback on this ruleset, especially in regards to how some sections are worded.

Guidelines for allowing digital comics on VNDB:

• The reading experience must be presented more dynamically than just merely viewing the entirety of a page in a typical comic at once, regardless of whether or not it has a digital or physical origin.

∘ Examples of common ways to make the reading experience more dynamic includes presenting only a single panel on screen at a time, with basic transitions or cinematics being used to move between panels after each mouseclick. Alternatively, all of the textboxes in a panel could gradually displayed on screen as the reader progresses as opposed to all at once.

∘ If the comic is primarily cinematic and advances automatically, then the reader must have an option to pause the video in order to read the textual content at their own pace.

• Comics are disallowed if they lack textual storytelling to begin with. Example
Last modified on 2021-10-11 at 19:44
#2 by beliar
2021-10-11 at 19:47
< report >This is pretty good for a first draft. In fact, those same barebones criteria were used by me when I decided if a digital comic can be considered a VN and could stay here or not. Though many digital comics tend to get so borderline that sometimes I feel ridiculous trying to decide if that still passes as a Vn or not.

P.S. Added a few more people to the discussion. Mayhap E or Y will have some insight into the situation... :-)
#3 by historyeraser
2021-10-11 at 19:51
< report >
In fact, those same barebones criteria were used by me when I decided if a digital comic can be considered a VN and could stay here or not.
The similarities are very intentional for the most part.
#4 by eacil
2021-10-11 at 21:21
< report >The problem is more complex than that. I am kinda reluctant right now about investing myself in long and complex debates but one I wanted to start was about inclusion's criteria, given the recent development.

This is more complex than writing rules for mangas. Simply put: we are on a slippery slope. First, we allow motion comics, now we allow videos of visual novels. I added a plain CG set to the database, waiting for someone to denounce it. Yeah, you heard right. And nobody noticed. Well, I took the wrong example because it might be a legit visual novel (what was dumped on the internet might be a ripped off version of it, really, it's unclear) but I can find other examples of CG sets being designed like a VN. I was gonna add the sequel of Daruma Auction which is a CG set, not a VN, but because of that, nobody would have noticed too! Anyway, because of this slippery slope, I can theoretically add every CG set on existence. They satisfy every criteria we have. Basically, you can make a VN out of them using Ren'py. (Look at 淫虐の侵略者~戦うヒロイン快楽堕ち~ for example. This thing has 106 pictures before reaching the first CG!)

Before writing rules for a specific medium, we need to look a the bigger picture and draw the limits, medium-wise.Last modified on 2021-10-11 at 21:26
#5 by historyeraser
2021-10-11 at 21:51
< report >#4 But do any of the CG sets have text on the like a comic book? Not likely. The fourth bubble on my criteria list also partially exists to keep out pure CG sets.Last modified on 2021-10-11 at 21:53
#6 by eacil
2021-10-11 at 22:29
< report >If you mean
Comics are disallowed if they lack textual storytelling to begin with.
then you clearly don't know what I am talking about. By CG sets I don't mean a bunch of plain CGs like CG sets from VN. Yes, CG sets have text on them. Ton of text. Check the examples I gave and maybe try to look for the CG set I recently added. It has screenshots.
#7 by beliar
2021-10-11 at 22:55
< report >I admit that Yorhel's post in t2108.4038 sets a bad precedent, one which I'm personally opposed to, but that is neither here nor there. It doesn't stop us from crafting a guidelines to separate visual novels from digital comics, and in fact I think such guidelines are sorely needed.

As for your trolling, Eacil, are you surprised no one noticed? You're a mod - people are less inclined to question you and in lieu of better evidence they are predisposed to trust your edits. So, the fact some obscure CG gallery you added passed unnoticed, is not strange at all.
#8 by historyeraser
2021-10-12 at 01:52
< report >r83658

I think this is the plain CG set judging by the by the description
#9 by yorhel
2021-10-12 at 06:36
< report >
• Comics are disallowed if they lack textual storytelling to begin with.
Is already covered by d2#1.

Other than that, the proposed guidelines look good as a way to exclude pure image galleries. No objection from me.

Before writing rules for a specific medium, we need to look a the bigger picture and draw the limits, medium-wise.
I suspect we'll get stuck with such a bigger picture approach. We already roughly know what visual novels are, so at this point it's fine to look at specific borders and refine the defintions around those borders. We now have one proposal for the border between VNs and image galleries, I'm definitely open to discussing the border with videos. My first approach there (as I suggested) would be tackling forced automode for the entire playtime. How many VNs have that?

Alternative approach: VNs must have a system to save reading progress somewhere. That, too, would exclude pure image galleries (provided they don't come with a reader application) and videos.Last modified on 2021-10-12 at 06:42
#10 by historyeraser
2021-10-12 at 13:37
< report >
Is already covered by d2#1.
Slightly offtopic, but are these new guidelines gonna be placed right under the current ones?
Alternative approach: VNs must have a system to save reading progress somewhere. That, too, would exclude pure image galleries (provided they don't come with a reader application) and videos.
No Saves is a thing, so I'm not sure if that's a good idea.
#11 by beliar
2021-10-12 at 18:42
< report >
I suspect we'll get stuck with such a bigger picture approach.
I'm in agreement with Yorhel. It's the wrong idea to focus on the wide picture - instead we should focus and define specific instances that can be partitioned and decided upon separately. In this case, we focus on the border between VNs and comics. A border between VNs and movies can be decided on a later date.

VNs must have a system to save reading progress somewhere.
Yeah, as HE has said, there are plenty of VNs that have no implementation for saving the progress. I'm pretty sure No Saves doesn't even fully represent them all, and there are many more.
#12 by historyeraser
2021-10-12 at 22:05
< report >A better way to distinguish most CG sets from VN's is that most VN's have some sort of UI/interface or menu you interact with.

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