yasuyoshi (spoiler warning)

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#1 by horyx
2021-12-15 at 16:00
< report >Who is yasuyoshi?
There are mentions of her here and there, but even though i'm reading this novel at the 4+ time, she is the only person i don't really know enough about or understand.
From what i understand she is a really important character, almost on kensuke's level (given the thing she has done behind the scenes), but i don't remember anyone ever explaining her or kensuke ever understanding what she was.

If anyone has information on her or know where can i find out more about her then please share that knowledge :D
if there was information about her in the novel and i just missed it every time i read it then please point out at which point in the game they explain her character and role.
#2 by casualreader
2021-12-15 at 18:44
< report >I can answer you from what I remember from the last time I played, but it's probably not going to be the most reliable information and, since you played 4+ times, it's also probably anything you don't know already (I plan to replay it just before EX1 comes out, but that's at least two months away).

Anyway, if I'm not misremembering, Yasuyoshi was Mari's aunt who ordered her to escape the Imagawa territory and to go find help with Kuon. She apparently died while helping Mari's escape (I don't remember the contents of the letter she sent anymore).

That said, I can't recall if they ever confirmed her death, so she might just show up again at some point (if you look at the EX1 character's list, for example, one of the characters is ???, which might be her or someone else entirely).
#3 by horyx
2021-12-17 at 19:26
< report >I see, thank you very much.
For some reason she totally come off for me as the same as kensuke, erika and the mestermind behind the oni(sorry, i don't remember his name). But turns out she was "just" a really smart person.

And since i'm reading it again now, i would point out that according to the game, she didn't die, she turned into an oni with high intelligence, although after that there was no information about her, so as you said, she can could show up anytime anywhere.
#4 by casualreader
2021-12-18 at 10:41
< report >I didn't get that impression when I read it, but it's not impossible if you look at the facts.
By the historical records, at least from the one website I could find info from (I can't read Japanese, so if you do, maybe you can validate this), Asahina Yasuyoshi died three years before the Battle of Okehazama/Dengaku-hazama event. Considering everything before Kensuke's appearance was historically accurate (recall that they went as far as putting sprites and voices for the two officers who historically killed Yoshimoto, Mori Shinsuke and Hattori Koheita), it's really weird and out of place for Yasuyoshi to still be alive. If you add all the background things she did, there might be a hidden agenda as to why she wanted Mari to be with Kuon.

If she is like Erika and Kensuke though, she can't be (just) Asahina Yasuyoshi, as they all have to have "roles" to play. Erika was Luis Frois and Akechi Mitsuhide, but came back as her part to play as Nankabou Tenkai. Kensuke is the one entitled to make the demons presence known and acknowledged and has a mission to exterminate the demon presence in Japan (we still don't know if he will disappear from the world once his role is over, see spoilers below if you feel like reading more as to why I think he might and you have played Shin Koihime). "Yasuyoshi" would also need a role to play in all this for it to be of a similar existence or else would have disappeared already, even if she is/was a similar existence to them.

Again, some Shin Koihime spoilers here, don't open if you haven't played them.
With the concepts of "roles" and "perception" introduced in Sengoku Koihime, it actually makes sense as to why Kazuto either remain or disappears in the three routes of Shin Koihime.

In Gi, Kazuto's "role" was supporting without interfering ("swimming against the current", as the fortune teller predicted to him). So by taking actions such as saving Shuuran, providing medicine beforehand and seeing through Go-Shoku's plan of collecting arrows, Kazuto strengthened everyone's perception of him as "someone not from this world". When he (due to the fortune teller), and now everyone believed his role was to get Gi to unify the continent, he ends up disappearing as soon as that is done.

In Go, Kazuto's "role", from the start, was spreading the "Messenger from Heaven" blood/seed into Go. And throughout the story, he and everyone else around him believes more and more of him to be "a member of the Go family", so he never ends up disappearing.

In Shoku, Kazuto's "roles" was to lead Touka into realizing her ideals. Although he is considered throughout to be the "Messenger from Heaven", he is never considered an outlier and never uses his "future" knowledge to influence the decisions. In the one moment when he is about to think himself as someone who doesn't belong, in Sei's last character event, Sei makes sure that Kazuto understands that the world he is from and this world have no connection and he is not "reliving the past", but rather "living the present". And thus, he ends up gaining his role as the "bridge" between the three kingdoms (same role he seems to have on Moeshouden/Eiyuutan).

Kensuke, on the other hand, has it very heavy on his conscience that his role is to end the demon presence in Japan, as shown in the X content of Sengoku (Houjou arc). So if my theory is correct, unless someone snaps him out of it, he is on his way to disappearing once the demon presence is fully eliminated
#5 by horyx
2022-01-10 at 17:04
< report >Well i will be frank: i totally forgot to draw parallels between the games (I played both koihime and shin kiohime before sengoku kiohime). I thought Kazuto dissappeared in Gi because he rewrote history, but now that you pointed out the essence of the whole game I'm rethinking my whole experience with koihime games. Even though i understood the perception part given the "just" koihime game, i didn't understand the whole role thing. Now with the new understanding back to the original topics:
-On the topic of Yasuyoshi, i'm totally in agreement with you: right now she can be either way more than just yasuyoshi or not. Right now it's totally up to the script writers and their intentions with the character.
-As for Keisuke, i'm close to having my heart shattered. I totally thought he was transferred to this world, had to fight literal monsters, but at the end he managed to win and attain happines forever with that oversized harem. But if the whole role thing plays in this game too, than that whole thing can shatter with a single extra chapter or two. After they kill the last oni, he could end up vanishing like Kazuto in Gi. Boy, this game just got another level or two deeper than i thought :D Thanks for all the information :D
#6 by casualreader
2022-01-10 at 20:59
< report >Glad I could be of help. Honestly, this could just be me going wild with my theories, but knowing there's still the possibility he might disappear in the end is one of the things that make me excited to play the sequel and see where they'll lead us in the story.

I just had a few new epiphanies regarding some other things after your reply, so read on if you're interested (not completely off-topic, but links to all the games so far):
In the original Koihime and in Sengoku, there is always something that the protagonist brings with them to the other world (in Koihime - the mirror, in Sengoku - the katana). It might be the case the item that links Kazuto in Shin Koihime is his cellphone. This seems to be teased in the events that happen in the extra episodes of Kakumei: his journey with Kada, Chousen and Himiko. Spoilers from that to follow (I wouldn't read them if you didn't play them yet, as it has quite an interesting ending).

In the three extra episodes, present on each of the Kakumei games after clearing them, Kazuto is back to the world of the Three Kingdoms, yet he can, alongside Kada, Chousen and Himiko, walk between worlds, which is what he does at the end of each episode. What I didn't realize up until now is that there might be more to his dialogue with Kazuto from En (I'll call him Kazuto2 from here on out) on the last episode . To recall, Kazuto asks Kazuto2 one key question during his dialogue: when Kazuto2 fell from the sky, did he have his cellphone with him? I just assumed that this simply meant to indicate it wasn't Kazuto's first time in the Koihime world, as in the end it's revealed he's actually the same Kazuto that disappeared from Gi, but there might be more to it.

Here's my line of thinking:
- For Kensuke, the katana is the very personification of his role as a demon slayer, given the special demon slaying power it has.
- For Kazuto (original Koihime), I have no idea as I haven't played it (I assume the mirror also personifies his existence).
- For Kazuto (Shin Koihime), the cellphone is the only proof he has that he is from "Heaven". If you recall, in Go he takes a picture using it and in Shoku, it's mistaken as an "artifact from Heaven". It's only in Gi that he never uses the cellphone to prove he is from another world and instead it's only his knowledege from the "future" that convinces Karin that he is not someone from this era. Throughout the events of Gi, by drastically changing key events, he ends up erasing exactly the roots of his existence: the future he knows, which is another possibility as to why he ends up disappearing.

So the reason Kazuto, in the Kakumei extra episodes, can walk between worlds and ultimately can come back to Karin, and the reason he didn't have his cellphone anymore, is because his "role"/what defines him in the world changed to something akin to Chousen/Himiko, just like it changed for Erika whe she stopped being Mitsuhide Akechi, disappeared and came back as Nankabou Tenkai. It makes even more sense considering Kazuto's addition to Kada's episodes only occured in Kakumei, which was released after Sengoku Koihime and in the original Shin Koihime Kazuto was never part of Kada's episodes.

Anyway, I guess I'll just play the original Koihime to see if they all these theories break down or still hold up in the end.
#7 by horyx
2022-01-13 at 20:09
< report >Now that is an interesting theory, and as you just listed them, a lot of things seem to support it. Since you said you want to play koihime i won't say anything about it, but let me just add that if my memory is right (which is not a definite, since i played koihime at least a decade ago or more), than the koihime game will be the one that undermines your theory. With shin koihime and sengoku koihime, your theory is, at his point, more or less spot on. It's not as easy to spot in shin koihime, but given kensuke's whole role in the oni thing, i would support your theory. Back when i played the games i always wondered why did kazuto dissappear in Gi, and why only there? First i thought because he changed history, but that was a weak guess at most, since he changed history in the other 2 routes too, but he stayed there in those. But since i couldn't come up with anything better i was stuck with it. Now after reading your theory, this whole essence thing seems really spot on, we could say it's the truth (or something really close to it), but before we continue this discussion, i would recommend you play koihime too, because as i said, that game could be the one that undermines your theory (only if i remember correctly of course.)
#8 by casualreader
2022-01-16 at 16:50
< report >So I played the original Koihime and, yeah, you are right, it does change my perspective in a lot of the things I said. Some in a rather disappointing way for me, to be honest.

First, on the original topic over Yasuyoshi (original Koihime spoilers to follow):
Chousen mentions that, in alternate histories, there is always an existence that's trying to end it (Saji/Ukitsu) and those that are trying to secure them (Chousen). There's a big chance Yasuyoshi is one of those existences similar to Saji and Chousen, as differently from Kensuke, who has a clear role and is playing it, and Erika, who was also stuck to a specific role, Yasuyoshi's role was supposed to be over already (like Chousen's, who also wasn't acting the part of Diao Chan).
I still think Kensuke can disappear, because by going the concepts set by the original Koihime: he'll either play his part as demon slayer until the demons are gone, and the story will finish/the world will disappear or he'll abandon his scripted role and disappear like Kazuto from Gi.
The new theories I can think of for him staying are: he'll create a new world just like Kazuto did in the original Koihime or; his role in this history is not as demon slayer, but similar to what Kazuto has in Moeshouden/Eiyuutan. (I'll honestly be very disappointed if that's the case, as it's just too convenient and anti-climatic for me.

Now on Shin Koihime's Kazuto's ending:
I'm not sure about the cellphone anymore, but my theory for Kazuto disappearing in Gi is still similar: he's given a script which is his character, to be the messenger from Heaven from the prophecies of Kanlun. The moment he uses his knowledge as Hongou Kazuto from St. Francesca to create a rift the story can't recover from anymore (Red Cliff/Sekiheki), and he is longer seen in the world as part of it but instead as something "foreign" to it is when he once and for all discards his scripted role and is deleted from existence. Kanlun and the fortune teller that Karin speaks to are actually scripted existences as well, and when Kazuto is warned "not to swim against the flow", it's regarding not to go against his scripted role in the flow of the alternate history.

His return to Gi by the end of the extra episodes might not have anything to do with Kazuto at all. Instead, it makes more sense that Karin, being the genius she is, understood the mechanics behind the alternate histories and created a new "world" (alternate history) in which Kazuto is back. She herself claims both when they say their farewells and in the epilogue that she was going to bring him back.

What I don't like about the concepts that the original Koihime brings is that it makes things too broad. In summary, anything is possible as long as they will for it. Although it's also an interesting nod to breaking the fourth wall and saying that, as long as the readers remember and want it, the story will go on.

I'll proceed to replay Sengoku Koihime now, which might take a while, but I'm hoping to see things in a new light now that I've played the original Koihime, and be prepared for Ex1.


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