|#1 by Ileca|
2022-02-20 at 23:02
|< report >Yorhel, what about a Linux feature for your next big project? Need to keep you busy. What? How comes I always propose some worthless new platform-specific feature every time I get stuck inside said platform? It's just your imagination. It is what people wants.|
Ok. Enough crazy talk. Seriously, would you be interested in developing some feature to help Linux players to find which dependencies they need to install to make a game work? Something like WineHQ appdb but dedicated to VN. Every user could input the service they used (Lutris, Wine-stable, Wine-staging, POL, Proton, whatever), the version (note field), their Linux distribution, version (note field), the vn release, the source/build (note field). Some free forms like installation/dependencies, comment (what work/doesn't work), hardware(?). A ranking (work flawlessly, work mostly bug free, work poorly). The ranking would be used as a vn filter.
Just throwing ideas.
Aren't you a Linux user yourself btw?
Most people won't care about such feature so you could hide it as a new vn tab (relations, releases, edit, etc.). You would have the room to be creative~~
What. Do. You. Think?
|#2 by Yorhel|
2022-02-21 at 08:51
|< report >I've not yet recovered from the titles feature and you're already throwing more work at me!? Such a slave driver.|
IMO: No, this is way out of scope for VNDB. Wine is a constantly moving target and the value of such user input declines very rapidly; if it even has value in the first place without detailed and up to date installation instructions, which is a major pain to get right.
I'd much rather see people contribute VN install scripts to the Lutris DB or something, that'd be much more useful and convenient. even if lutris is a slow and bloated piece of crap
|#3 by Widowan|
2022-02-21 at 09:22
|< report >While I agree that'd be insanely useful (mostly for old vns that work on pure magic because they were already outdated on release), it really is hard to keep track with how rapid wine/proton developing is.|
|#4 by myougaunzen|
2022-02-21 at 15:59
|< report >I think its a good idea. although as a much simpler thing, and also not just for linux. I find the OS data on egs really useful personally.|
the way I would do it is have a section exactly like the length vote system. the only information would be needed is input for what OS (eg. win10 64bit, win7 64bit, linux, mac, etc.), whether it ran or not (just simple checkbox similar to egs with something like runs, runs under conditions, and doesnt run/cant install) and an optional comments field.
not sure whether we would want choosing a specific release as a requirement as well or just leave that for the comment field if necessary.
but basically most of the time people would just choose OS and tick runs fine and not even worry about a comment. and then when something is annoying to install or as a linux user or whatever, adding that information as a comment would be really useful to other users.
i know nothing about linux but even if the information goes out of date surely it might still give someone a hint on where to start, (maybe have a feature to flag someones comment as obsolete), but even if the method doesnt work exactly for the next user, thed probly add their own way they figured out to get it working when/if they do, or just add it as doesnt run.
|#5 by cubky|
2022-02-21 at 16:18
|< report >I do not see much value in Linux info, but +1 to user submitted compatibility information. That is actually one of the most common reasons I tend to visit EGS for|
|#6 by substanceof|
2022-02-21 at 17:13
|< report >Wine might be a "constantly moving target", but problems (at least for vns) are actually mostly the same: some winelib doesn't work same way as its original counterpart in some corner cases. If it works - it works, if it's not, solution is also mostly the same: install native lib. Deciphering which ones from logs is a hard task, so feature like that would help even with "outdated" info. Although winehq appdb does have pages for many vns, I wouldn't say that vn specific db is uselessLast modified on 2022-02-21 at 17:17|
|#7 by ibie808|
2022-02-21 at 17:19
|< report >I agree with Yorhel that it would be too complicated to add and maintain, becasue of all of the variables needed.|
I also agree part-way with myougaunzen, but that the game should only be listed as "working", with no other variables, such as "part-working", and "not working", because making minor changes with WINE, or just downloading a simple dll file could fix the issue.
Adding "part-working", and "not working" would require hard-to-define parameters to justify what they are, like in the Wine AppDB, and some minor flaws which may only affect a minute part of the game will move a game from "working" to "non-working".
The main reason I am against these definitions/parameters is because it will deter people from playing the games.
I agree with Widowan, and also think that this feature should only be added to older games, like Fate/stay night. in Fate/stay night's case, it should be listed only as "working".
If the game isn't working then it shouldn't have any tag, because the fix may be easy and it may stop people from playing the games.
Anyway, shouldn't such a feature be reserved for the WINE AppDB? Well, Ileca did mention it in his post, lol -->
(─‿‿─) (￣ω￣) (─‿‿─) ! ! !
(o^ ^o) (//▽//) (o^ ^o) (//▽//) (o^ ^o) ! ! !
Also, this thread feature is kind of - [no, really] - nice (^_^) ! ! !Last modified on 2022-02-21 at 17:21
|#8 by Ezezin|
2022-02-21 at 17:23
|< report >|
I've not yet recovered from the titles featureAnd here I finished recording 10/17 of the examples for the animation proposal :/ (this is the reason why I'm not editing)
On topic, I agree with submitted compatibility information, however I would put it in the release information close to the media selection, so when we choose Windows, Linux and/or Mac as media another set of selections will appear related to those three OS (for example, choosing Windows as media would let us choose from Windows 95 to Windows 11) and a short field where we can write anything related to those systems (here would go the 32bit and/or 64bit and other minor details, for example, if it only works by doing certain workarounds, etc.). Maybe the same for Android and iOS?
Edit: Of course we wouldn't put any media that doesn't work, how to get past DRM, how to run AppLocale or Hook codes.Last modified on 2022-02-21 at 17:38
|#9 by Ileca|
2022-02-21 at 22:11
|< report >Freaking window$ users trying to hijack my proposal SMH!|
I don't understand some of the criticisms but it's probably because I am a Linux noob.
(Forgive the lack of structure of my post.)
Wine's appdb is the way to go?
Ok, I did a test, I took my Wishlist-High label which has 48 of the most anticipated VN I want to play (38 are on Windows without a Linux release). I input them inside WineHQ, and I got
>Database Error: Illegal mix of collations (latin1_swedish_ci,IMPLICIT) and (utf8mb4_general_ci,COERCIBLE) for operation 'like'
You can't search for Japanese... so good luck finding any untranslated JVN.
Anyway, I checked the romaji as the names happen to be very simple. I got FOUR results! Of course, very well-known top 50 VN, VN that are 20 years old, ALL in English.
I checked the latest localizations > link
I had to reach Danganronpa 1 (because Anniversary Edition) to find a result.
Unless I am very unlucky, people don't contribute scripts or workarounds to Lutris or WineHQ when it comes to JVN.
To put the last nail in the coffin, I will give one last example which I believe will convince you of the uselessness of Wine's db for VN. It doesn't include Muramasa even though instructions are available and NEEDED because that is quite a pickle to run! link
Can you see a script for Lutris? No. Well, you complained about adding scripts on Lutris so I guess you are aware of the lack of support.
Anyway, you can see why I think VNDB would be useful as the place to go to find data about VN. What I would like ultimately is for the Linux community to gather here and start helping
Wine is a constantly moving target and the value of such user input declines very rapidly?
it really is hard to keep track with how rapid wine/proton developing is
I use Lutris because 1/2 of the games I tried work out of the box. This leaves a LOT on the side of the road. Also, when I have an error, sorry but I am unable to fix it coz I have not the slightest idea what I am supposed to do. In the last game I tried, it crashes but I had NO ERROR in the log.
But the egregious thing is that I wanted to run all my VN on Wine, because while I am grateful toward Lutris and depend on it, it doesn't help me improve and I can't debug the shit it throws at me. Also I don't like having my VN spread on different interfaces (I know you can add local sources, but it uses the desktop icons brr).
When I tried running those working games on Wine, NONE worked out of the box. I was only able to run a single game, and I was lucky because it didn't run on Lutris.
I even tried link and after setting a big fat 1.5giga prefix, stuff works slightly better (as in, it starts) until it crashes (can't reach the menu lol).
I don't understand the argument that the user input declines rapidly? As a noob I can't run half of my games without doing intensive research. I can't even run games on Wine out of the box. Where is the progress and how is it related to my suggestion?
From my understanding, when it comes to videos, you have to have ten different prefixes with many combinations of codecs because sometimes you need this one, sometimes this other one, you can't have both on this game because this one makes it crash. This is insane. Just knowing which codecs you need should be of tremendous help.
Sooooo... Wine might be improving, but you still need to know what kind of shit you need to install with Winetricks, or what the flying fuck need to be tweaked to make the game work.
I mean, I have a game that works, but the font is jagged t17860. Go figure how to fix this tiny issue even though most people would consider this game "working". Well, I can't read for hours if the font bothers me this much.
Does Proton gives a fuck about old VN? I don't think so. Is it shipped with per game patches? Are we stuck with steam games? Is steam or wine making up a revolutionary way of automatically detecting which stuff an old game needs that will guarantee you 100% compatibility out of the box?
@myougaunzen: it is absolutely useless for a Linux user to know that it works on Linux without knowing how. Ok, it works. Well, it doesn't work for me. Wow, useful feature. About the windows version, setting windows compatibility in winecfg appears to be the least useful hint to run a program in Wine.
@ibie808: my proposition doesn't include "not working". You are exaggerating when you say that it would deter people from playing a game. You are supposed to explain what is not working. If someone doesn't check the report, it's their problem.
+1 to the last paragraph of myougaunzen, and substanceof.
Anyway, the point of that suggestion is to list guaranteed ways of success, or part of it. It doesn't matter if the information is outdated, because for someone who can't make a game work, it is still gold information. All they have to do is reproduce the settings. That's why I put those boxes (service, distro, versions, etc.): to be able to reproduce. Only the setup will be fixed/granular, the rest will be free forms. You could even just put one single form. You contribute how you want with hints, a script, just reporting it works, write a long ass wall of text with detailed instructions. Just write what worked for you. If you allow to comment on such reports, someone could ask this person what they did with more details in case something is missing. Reports could be improved over time.Last modified on 2022-02-21 at 22:36
|#11 by fallenguru|
2022-02-21 at 23:39
|< report >I use Linux exclusively, so having a go-to resource for VN-specific info and workarounds would be useful to me. Thing is, I can't see how it would work in a DB context. There are a million different versions of WINE and as many launchers for them, running on a myriad of distros, running on various hardware. ProtonDB works because Proton massively reduces the variables, but even there a lot of the data is free-form text. Game-specific tutorials simply can't be usefully reduced to a number of standardised DB fields, and long-form ones can just go into the forum. (Currently I just add my notes to my WAYR posts on R.)|
That said, something akin to the ProtonDB rating, e.g. "officially supported", "works", "works with tweaks", "works with caveats", and "doesn't work", for platforms and versions/variants thereof ("sub-platforms", perhaps?) would be useful, and for far more than just WINE/Proton. W10, W11 vs legacy Windows, MacOS pre and post Catalina(?) and Intel vs Apple silicon, console versions on various emulators, ...
Make it so people can vote publicly on each sub-platform (unless it's "officially supported" anyway), maybe add a comment, and display the vote stats, so everyone may draw their conclusions. A single "works" vote doesn't mean much, but if there are a couple, you know it's possible, which is worth a lot. On the other hand a "doesn't work" would indicate more research before purchase at the very least.Last modified on 2022-02-21 at 23:43
|#12 by Ezezin|
2022-02-22 at 00:14
|< report >I'll just add that Wine AppDB is a property in Wikidata. Sure, it will not solve the problems stated in #9 but there it is if Yorhel wants to link that website to VN pages.|
Edit: There is also Lutris DBLast modified on 2022-02-22 at 20:51
|#13 by Ileca|
2022-02-22 at 00:14
|< report >You can't search the forum efficiently to find working games on Linux. Such threads are extremely rare when a report feature would incentivize people to write them.|
I am not asking you to write millions of reports for every Wine version, just one per service you tested max.
Let's say you write a report for Wine. You say it works on Wine 5.0.3. You used
>WINEPREFIX=~/.winevn winetricks ffdshow quartz wmp9 d3dx9 dotnet35 vcrun2003 vcrun2005 vcrun2008 vcrun2010 vcrun2012 vcrun2013 vcrun2015
to make it run.
Ok, now I try to make the game work on my side. I missed some components. Thank you for your report. I tried with the same components but still not working. I use up-to-date 7.0 Wine. I will try downgrading it and if it works, thank you for your report. Nothing work, maybe I can hit you with a question. If nothing work, that's too bad, but maybe it helped someone else.
This feature is not supposed to be something absolutely objective like pinpoint exactly what dependencies a game needs to run. It would be more akin to a collection of reports someone could use as base to investigate their own situation. Like reviews. Reviews are based on many preferences and will never tell you objectively if a game is good or bad. It is not possible. However, you can use the arguments and similarity of taste to draw your own conclusion.
What you are basically saying is that there is no way to communicate anything useful that would help anyone to set their own Linux because any setting is unique. I find that hard to believe to an extent. If a video doesn't want to play unless you installed LAV Filters, how communicating that data in a report would become useless because of your billions and billions of variables? Are you telling me the guy who wrote a guide on how to run Muramasa on Linux shouldn't have done that because his advice will be useless on everybody else's gear?
Those reports would be snapshots of configs that work.
Such reports could make you aware that the game NEEDS codecs x because the game HAS videos and that if you never read the report, you would have skipped them without noticing!
Edit: Ezezin, I thought of that but we both know how much linking to a third party website helps filling that third party website. How many of us are creating Wikidata entries for the purpose of linking them back to vndb?Last modified on 2022-02-22 at 00:17
|#14 by Yorhel|
2022-02-22 at 07:29
|< report >You don't have to tell me about the annoyances of running VNs on Linux, I live through that hell as well. But the thing is, I'm unconvinced that yet another half-assed undiscoverable section on a generic VN database will help much; this desperately needs a separate and dedicated "VNs on Linux" wiki & community.|
Reports about which wine versions and which distros worked are useless to me, I'm not going to install a seperate (sometimes 10 years old) distro for each VN I want to read; later wine versions can sometimes break where older versions worked, and oftentimes it's fonts/libraries that the user didn't even know they had installed that make or break a VN (coughgstreamercough).
|#15 by kusrhdf|
2022-02-22 at 08:37
|< report >I think putting Linux / Wine data here is overkill for this DB, and also a duplicate of efforts. What would make more sense is to link Lutris's DB, ProtonDB, Wine's AppDB if they're available. Let those third parties care about the nuances of Wine being a moving target, and others.|
I can't seem to find a way to add or edit Links though. Sorry for being a noob on the website.
|#16 by Ileca|
2022-02-22 at 08:38
|< report >I thought the distro would be about finding what are the differences between yours and the one listed in case it matters in some way. It's like hardware, I don't care about people listing their hardware but that might be relevant to someone. Maybe it doesn't run because you have a driver problem. It's a track to investigate in case it's the only thing diverging. The guy is on Arch and you on Ubuntu and maybe you know Arch implements something differently and that might be the source of your problem. I am not adamant about that.|
What matters to me is service & runner + version on one hand and tweaks on the other hand. "Later wine versions can sometimes break where older versions worked" is exactly the kind of problem this feature is supposed to address.
I don't understand why you all hang about your millions variables, like every Linux is unique. Who cares? Knowing what kind of components you need with Winetricks, how did you modify Wine's configuration, did you have to download something specific like I read you need to download something called fjfix to make the Sonohana work. How the fuck are you supposed to know that and how not having a report here about that would not be helpful in any way? How is that hardware/distro dependent? What tells you that the report won't warn you that gstreamer breaks the VN? If you found out, why aren't you the one warning others??
As for the "it's another database about fixes". Well, the other databases are not helpful when it comes to VN. We are in our little community and we care about VN. It's not fixes for Battlefield but for this old 2004 VN only VNDB users care about. We all have the same problem about making games work, discoverability shouldn't be a problem if you put a "linux" between "relations" and "releases". I don't know, I feel like seeing Linux users (who read VN) shooting themselves in the foot because they don't want to know in any easy way what they should be aware of when installing something, sparing them a lot of time discovering the wheel again.
|#17 by rusian|
2022-02-22 at 10:54
|< report >+1 for wine data here. VN community is quite a small community and linux users with vns are just rare creatures. We must help each other. Even a small input from linux users in database helps a lot.|
|#18 by nutjob|
2022-02-22 at 14:14
|< report >Something like ProtonDB, with reports based on the distro, proton/wine version, winetricks/protontricks and other workarounds used would be really great.|
|#19 by ibie808|
2022-02-22 at 14:40
|< report >The Winetricks configurations are the variables, though. Sometimes you have to download millions of things just to get one VN working. |
Well, I do agree that the variables shouldn't put in as options, like a drop-down menu on the website, and instead put in as a thread, or a text file on the page of the game.
Actually, maybe there could be a seperate section of the website for WINE, and each game only has one thread discussing the fixes . . .
|#20 by ibie808|
2022-02-22 at 14:42
|< report >Well, it could be loosely moderated, but sometimes there are security exploits . . . @_@ . . .|
|#21 by poyayaaan69|
2022-02-22 at 15:31
|< report >+1 for a small section that lets you vote for the playability in your platform and specify some tweaks to get it working. I know of the dbs for this purpose but still, a vn centric db would be convenient because only here do we have a community familiar with the common vn engines, also vns are niche enough that I don't think the common Linux gamer will contribute much toward vn compatibilty. Not everyone might be able to contribute install scripts or tell you ins and outs of why something doesn't work but they may still be able to get it working and tell you how they did, and this, would be very helpful.|
|#22 by kusrhdf|
2022-02-22 at 22:50
|< report >I think storing a kind of score of Wine playability would make sense. Right now when I'm looking for a new novel, I go one by one and check individually if there's any luck running them with Wine in Linux. So a score, like on AppDB or ProtonDB, would help. But I wouldn't extend the DB with fields about how to actually run the thing in Wine. That's just way too much data for not much of a gain - because we already have websites that tackle this, and everyone is free to contribute to those. What VNDB could do is link to those websites whenever it's appropriate, like how Wikipedia and other links already work. |
So we could have some score here, even maybe a simple yes or no, and links to AppDB, ProtonDB, Lutris Games for actual install discussions.
Also if people want to discuss Linux playability, there's already Forums here for that. Anyone's free to start a topic called Wine settings for a game and write their experience there. Create a template that everyone should use like AppDB, and so on.... no need to place this on the website devs.
|#23 by Ileca|
2022-02-23 at 00:40
|< report >This YES/NO support feature is too dependent on someone's skill. It is not as straight as telling if a windows game works on windows 7, 8 or 10. Sure, for popular VN, the number of votes will fix the bias but for unpopular ones you will have maybe one vote and if a noob like me starts to vote without explaining what he has tried, you will get a lot of NO because he can't run most of his VN in vanilla Wine even though it would be doable for some moderately seasoned user.|
I took a look at ProtonDB and this DB appears to be pretty useless beyond telling you what works on steam and being a feedback system for the Proton team. I first need to find out how to install Proton without the DRM crap called steam, tho.
because we already have websites that tackle this, and everyone is free to contribute to thoseVN fans are free to contribute but they don't. Also, those websites don't have 1/10 of vndb's search system's power. If those websites were actually useful for VN fans, I would have asked for simple links. Edit: VN fans as in not steam fans and English-only readers.Last modified on 2022-02-23 at 01:00
|#24 by fallenguru|
2022-02-23 at 01:03
|< report >> Right now when I'm looking for a new novel, I go one by one and check individually if there's any luck running them with Wine in Linux.|
FWIW, I've stopped bothering to even check for Linux support before I buy a VN, simply because I haven't come across one yet that doesn't work. A few had issues that I couldn't solve within a day or two, then it was either live with them, ask for help, or wait for WINE/Proton to catch up (which it invariably did within a couple of weeks, months at most).
I do check for non-trivial copy protection / DRM, however, because I won't have any of that on my boxes even if (especially if?) it did work. Nothing to do with Linux, that hasn't changed since my Windows days.
> Proton [...] falls short when you're dependent on [...] locale emulator
For Steam games: put "LANG=ja_JP.UTF-8 %command%" in the launch options.
For non-Steam games, launch Steam from a terminal like this: "LANG=ja_JP.UTF-8 steam".
If the "this needs Japanese locale" symptoms persist, use LC_ALL instead of LANG.Last modified on 2022-02-23 at 02:11
|#25 by substanceof|
2022-02-23 at 18:08
|< report >|
score of Wine playability would make sense ... But I wouldn't extend the DB with fields about how to actually run the thing in Wine.
Then this feature will be completely useless. When it comes to wine and older vns (and with older vns even windows users should be concerned), it's not a boolean "works / doesn't work", it's " it works because I did this and this". As people already said here, desktop linux community is small, linux gaming community is even smaller, and linux vn readers community.. If there's a go-to place to share your expirence (and not just score) it would be extremely helpful for those who want to read (not just launch it) less popular older vns.
For example, I recently tried to run I/O and good luck finding page for it on appdb (there is a page for it on appdb, but google site search chokes on this title). I honestly don't understand why someone would think that just score field is better than e.g. score field + freeform notes field, this field wouldn't hurt anyone for sure. Then again, there are issues pretty much specific to vns no one else cares about (broken ugly fonts, missing videos) and I think they will receive much more attention here than anywhere elseLast modified on 2022-02-23 at 18:10
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