Request to restore entry.

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#1 by sen-
2022-06-22 at 19:58
< report >Many game-VN hybrids still exist on this platform such as the entire blazblue series, Ace Attorney, Zero Escape and so on.

This is another one of them that features a Card Game alongside heavy emphasis on a VN told story with a few gameplay (card game) moments but mainly a VN in story and the card game can still be played on it's own much like Blazblue still being able to be played as a fighting game on it's own.

Shadowverse also allows the player to read the VN story without ever playing the card game so you can read it for a prolonged amount of time without any gameplay interruptions.

#2 by nirvaren
2022-06-22 at 20:14
< report >I don't really know anything about Shadowverse in particular, but according to the inclusion rules, the game must "consistently use the novel narrative for telling its story. Examples include describing visuals, events, character actions or thoughts. This point is ESSENTIAL - dialogues, no matter how extensive, are a characteristic of such game genres as RPGs, adventure games, dating simulations, etc., NOT of visual novels."

The video you posted was all dialogue, as far as I could tell from skimming through. Perhaps it would still qualify as a non-hybrid if you can play just the story, not sure how VNDB handles those cases.
#3 by sen-
2022-06-22 at 20:18
< report >There are many VNs here that do not describe at all such as Professor Layton and the latter Blazblue games (earlier ones do describe) and are solely dialogue based.

That said, this series does describe now and then but IS largely dialogue based I admit.
You could argue it being non-hybrid if you only read but I feel like it should still work within the hybrid rules if those other games are allowed to stay.
#4 by sen-
2022-06-22 at 20:37
< report >link
(at around 20 seconds in)
(30:10 also has narration)
Start of this has novel narration to establish the setting alongside recapping previous chapters events to an extent. So it does use narration, just sparingly admittedly.Last modified on 2022-06-22 at 20:42
#5 by beliar
2022-06-22 at 20:48
< report >So, do you have to do something to play the story mode, or you can play it from the very start just skipping the battles? If the story mode truly exists without a need to get involved with gameplay, then narration is not really a requirement anymore.
#6 by sen-
2022-06-22 at 20:50
< report >Story mode is there straight away. You can skip right away, it'll only give you a prompt if you want to skip the card game battle or not when one comes up.
#7 by sen-
2022-06-22 at 20:54
< report >link

Here in the prologue chapter, you can see you can just tick skip battle and you're allowed to simply just read.


and another battle in a much more recent chapter that still let's you skip.Last modified on 2022-06-22 at 20:56
#8 by beliar
2022-06-22 at 21:04
< report >I'm unfamiliar with the game, but doesn't it somehow curbs your ability to read, unless you spend ingame items, which you can only get by playing battles? After all it's how the gatcha usually works.
#9 by sen-
2022-06-22 at 21:09
< report >The gacha aspects and any monetary aspect is only limited to the card game. There is no restrictions on the story mode, no stamina system, etc. The story is wholly available for free for the player at no additional costs or restrictions.
#10 by beliar
2022-06-22 at 21:11
< report >I see, in that case I see no problem in restoring the entry.
#11 by ravosu
2022-07-06 at 06:24
< report >So this game recently appeared on my filtered list and I was surprised I ignored a "Long (30 - 50 hours)" visual novel. How long is the actual VN side of the game?
#12 by sen-
2022-07-06 at 11:52
< report >Most characters stories are about 1-2 hours each which in the first two arcs consist of 8 character stories + an epilogue which is about 2 hours.
Right now, there are up to 14 arcs (including epilogue arcs) and some epilogues are longer than others.
For example, The Final Loop is 6 hours long.
linkLast modified on 2022-07-06 at 11:52
#13 by lordnight
2022-07-12 at 18:22
< report >I beg to differ but the skip function is available AFTER you finished that particular part of the story, including the battle.
this is what it looks like on the first time. Sorry for the quality I had to dig that up from a random streamer.
the title of the vid says itself, the video skips the battle segment and just shows the story part, which consist mostly around 5~15mins depends on your reading speed. And apparently he already completed the chapter.Last modified on 2022-07-12 at 18:32
#14 by sen-
2022-07-12 at 18:34
< report >I had my friend go through the game for me with a fresh account (since I have a finished story mode) and the only battle they were forced to do in the story were the tutorial. Every battle afterwards that (as far as they have progressed) were skippable.
You can see in this screenshot that there isn't a clear tag on the chapter they're on but they are able to skip.
#15 by lordnight
2022-07-12 at 18:53
< report >No they are all not.
That was only for the entirety of the Morning Star chapter and Guild Wars kinda has that feature... Assuming you don't want the rewards then yes you can skip battles.
However, on Gears of Rebellion and beyond you cannot.
#16 by usagi
2022-07-12 at 19:33
< report >Is it even matters whether the gameplay is skippable or not? Believe me when I say nobody plays in Shadowverse for the story alone. And why skip battles in story mode if they are quite interesting and challenging to do? Even if there is skip option - the story mode is clearly designed to do those battles as well. Actually I played for a long time in this game several years ago - and I don't remember that there was way to skip battles in story mode at all but maybe it was added later. Still it seems strange to me considering that for many battles and chapters of story mode the player was rewarded with rare and useful unique cards and resources. That wouldn't be a REWARD if that was so easy to do, wouldn't it? I clearly remember it was quite challenging to do - and if there was ability to skip battles - I would gladly use it without doubt since some cards you could get in story mode - were used in winning decks in net battles at the time. But I don't remember I could do it at all - on the contrary I was forced to spend lot of time and efforts to get those cards and I remember even my frustration about it.
With that said, whether skip option is true or not - the game is not vn. It's multiplayer online competitive collectable card-battle gachage first and foremost. With addition of story mode you should assess it as a hybrid because it is a hybrid. However even story mode is designed around battles and resources you could get from them - which are required for gameplay section of the game. Therefore for a hybrid - amount of narration there is negligible. The game has quite interesting story (albeit messy and confusing) and lot of characters (very one-dimensional though) for sure - but with such weak standarts here soon we are going to accept every gachage and jrpg out there in vndb. What's next in line? Disgaea, Arknight, Fire Emblem? Why not - there are huge anounts of text, intricate plots, lot of anime-looking characters made in adv presentation style who could talk lot of time, aren't there? Technically I don't see any key difference between Shadowverse and Disgaea series, for example - except abilitiy to skip battles in story mode. Is this really what defines a genre for you - tiny skip button in a corner of a screen? 0_0
The same could be said about Blazblue, of course - and this series probably is not meant for a vndb as well, tbh. Still, there ARE quite a few pure narration sections in NVL style - at least in first game. And even unskippable battles in story mode can be finished in like 5 seconds if you have enough experience in fighting games or set easy mode - turning the whole story mode experience in a visual novel experience - whether you like it or not. Which can't be said for Shadowverse:
1) there isn't enough amount of narration at all - the game is dialogue-based
2) card battles can't be fast - they are going to take your time. And there are lot of them in each chapter.
2) I really doubt you can read the WHOLE story in one go with novice level deck and without extensive amount of time needed to level up your decks. I remember some boss battles there were difficult to win even with lot of legendary-level cards which novice players usually are not having enough. And to get them you usually spend huge amount of time in net battles as well - turning story mode sections you is able to read ocassionally in just an extra bonus - which it is actually meant to be by design.Last modified on 2022-07-12 at 20:09
#17 by sen-
2022-07-12 at 19:56
< report >#15
You can skip them.
Gears of Rebellion can also be skipped.

While most people playing shadowverse are definitely only playing it for the card game, I think if something is possible to be completely read as a VN should be able to be put in VNDB.
Blazblue like we have mentioned, is majorly a fighting game franchise and most people playing Blazblue would not be playing Blazblue purely for the VN story mode. That said, it is still on VNDB because of the option to (mostly) play it as a VN.Last modified on 2022-07-12 at 20:01
#18 by usagi
2022-07-12 at 20:05
< report >#17
While most people playing shadowverse are definitely only playing it for the card game, I think if something is possible to be completely read as a VN should be able to be put in VNDB.
Blazblue like we have mentioned, is majorly a fighting game franchise and most people playing Blazblue would not be playing Blazblue purely for the VN story mode. That said, it is still on VNDB because of the option to (mostly) play it as a VN.

The following is a lists of few games that are included in the database, but are very much borderline cases. When arguing for another game to be included, do not, ever, refer to these games as examples.

The BlazBlue series

Src: d15Last modified on 2022-07-12 at 20:06
#19 by sen-
2022-07-12 at 20:21
< report >Ok then I refer to another hybrid case like AI: The Somnium Files. That game is largely dialogue-based (very few, if at all, narration segments) with generally point and click gameplay and puzzles where the player can move around and interact with items. These aren't skippable and MUST be completed to progress. Despite all this, it is still on VNDB. Arguably, shadowverse fits on VNDB more than AI: The Somnium Files. I personally would still count both as VNs but if VNDB is only for very traditional VNs, a lot of entries here shouldn't be here at all.

Also as beliar and I discussed earlier, the option to skip the battles and allowing the player to read it without any additional costs or other reasons is what allowed it to be added into VNDB.Last modified on 2022-07-12 at 20:22
#20 by diabloryuzaki
2022-07-13 at 00:24
< report >it seems like we need best comparator when gacha games is worth to mentioned as a vn or not in vndb category. i see less example to comparing when it comes for gacha games with vn element in vndb
#21 by sen-
2022-07-13 at 02:15
< report >I think if you can read the VN portion without the game's gameplay or mostly without it, it should be able to apply for VNDB. This basically already applies to most hybrid games/VN entries here so I don't see why some gachas with a similar format shouldn't be accepted.Last modified on 2022-07-13 at 02:15
#22 by ravosu
2022-07-13 at 03:43
< report >#19 I completely disagree with the comparison against AI: The Somnium Files. The gameplay in The Somnium Files is used to complement the story, not the other way around.

I tried Shadowverse for a bit (just a bit, I could be completely wrong) after asking on this thread. It's... just a gacha game with a bit of story to keep the players entertained until they start grinding hard again and the story doesn't matter anymore after that. The goal of the game isn't to tell a story (a shitty story is still a story)

Final Fantasy Brave Exvius does/(did?) the same thing, and while I admit looking forward to the next part of the story, the story was just there to introduce new characters/mechanics and some lore. After the "brief" story segments you're back to the grinding, microtransactions, etc.

The cycle is lore -> grind for months -> lore -> grind for months -> repeat

I don't have any opinions regarding BlazBlue as I haven't played the series.Last modified on 2022-07-13 at 04:16
#23 by sen-
2022-07-13 at 08:36
< report >#22
I'm assuming you're playing morning star and at that point, I definitely agree that it was originally just there to give items to the player with an ok story at best there. but I personally do believe a few arcs onwards, Shadowverse does actually care about it's story. Sadly Morning Star is the start and catalyst to future events in the Shadowverse story.
Example, Fate's Trigger for Bunny and Baron only had their first (of like, 2 or 3 battles) 6 parts in.
link (same link in #17)

That being said, while it is ultimately a side option for the overall shadowverse game, I do still stand by the fact that it's story mode being purely playable as a VN (with the option to skip the battles) should still allow it to stay on VNDB as another example of a hybrid entry.Last modified on 2022-07-13 at 08:43
#24 by usagi
2022-07-13 at 22:53
< report >IMO very telling criteria whether the game vn or not would be question: would the game still be playable if we will remove vn part from it (story mode etc.)? Would its gameplay not lose any sense without story? If yes - then it's not a vn since gameplay there is significant enough to represent most of game's core, so to speak. If not - then it's a vn since the story is so important there that gameplay part turns to just a bonus and can't have any value without a story added to it. I like this criteria and I propose to add it to hybrid vns guidelines in addition to narration clause - it helps to clearly see what is important and what is not in a game, where lies game's main priority, what is point of its existence, its essence - for what people would play it first and foremost. That's what should define final game's genre IMO - not some bureaucratic nitpicking and sophistry on the level of attorneys debates about law's interpretation (and that's exactly what mechanical gimmick such as skip is). Isn't it ridiculous that if/when the skip function was added later in later updates - the early game's builds weren't vn whereas later builds suddenly becomes a vn - while the game technically and mechanically remains absolutely the same?

Ok then I refer to another hybrid case like AI: The Somnium Files. That game is largely dialogue-based (very few, if at all, narration segments) with generally point and click gameplay and puzzles where the player can move around and interact with items.
I am not sure you understand what exactly narration is. Characters thoughts are also a narration. Given the detective genre of the game - in AI Somnium Files character thoughts are much more abundant comparing to Shadowverse's negligible amount of characters self-reflection.
However you continue to ignore clear rule's violation for hybrid vns by Shadowverse in terms of narration amount. It's not even important whether story is long enough or interruptible or not - if it's mostly dialogue-based. Dialogue-based story in a hybrid game should be a red flag - it's "final line of defense" against horde of plot-driven jrpgs not conquering vndb after all. I believe we should respect this rule even if it seems unconvenient and gimmicky at times.Last modified on 2022-07-13 at 23:10
#25 by sen-
2022-07-14 at 03:54
< report >#24
According to #5
If the story mode truly exists without a need to get involved with gameplay, then narration is not really a requirement anymore.

but also in the argument of where the game's priorities lie, shouldn't all/most of the borderline entries (and even most hybrids) listed as "special games" not qualify? I understand at this point that they're "special" and shouldn't be used as reference to argue for another game but for the sake of the argument you've brought up, more than half of them are prioritizing another game genre that just have some extensive reading segment.
Ar Tonelico's justification is literally only a partially optional smaller segment that is 2-3 hours maximum per character (which are only so few per game) in a game that is otherwise a 30-40 hour RPG.