Huge change of the tagging system
|#1 by Mrkew|
2022-06-29 at 23:30
|< report >In case you missed it - and I don't blame you if you did, after all it was done in complete secrecy with no thread, no proposal, no place for feedback or discussion, not even a mention in the tagging thread, the tag voting was updated to be much much stricter regarding tags' presence in VNs. That's right, something like changing the way breast sizes are tagged was done as a big public project, but changing the cornerstone of the site is done in a hidden mod thread and changed in a blink without so much as a beep. |
What's the change? The old rules were ambiguous and relied on common sense. Now, it's specifically outlined what counts as significant and insignificant.
In general, in a 30 hour VN, a tag has to be present for at least 6 hours to not be "insignificant". Now, I know what you're thinking, 6 hours is a shitton. That's longer than 1 route, usually. So, if a route is completely about one single plot point, it is still not good enough to tag the plot point 2.0. Does the VN have 6 heroines? If they don't share any of the traits, all the tags related to their traits are insignificant.
Of course, the problem isn't just between power 1.0 and 2.0. Power 3.0 is only there for a few select legends. Roughly 3/4 of the VN has to contain that tag for it to qualify. You know all them KEY games with comedy tagged super high because that's what the whole first half of the game is? Well, too bad. That's not enough, and the drama in the latter half is not important enough to be tagged 3.0 either. A game that's half comedy and half nukige? If the H-scenes aren't goddamn hillarious, that's a 2.
In other words, most of the tags in the database which are tagged with power over 2 are now incorrect according to the new rules. That's like what, roughly 20k VNs with tagging done wrong according to the rules now? Well, I sincerely doubt the mods will go and manually overrule all the existing tags on popular VNs, but keep this in mind for all the new games. If you liked a proper tag cloud, say goodbye to it.
PS: I see the "don't take the numbers literally part". If you want the numbers to be taken into account, then don't make them up after smoking crack cocaine. If you don't want the numbers to be relevant to tagging, then why put them there at all.
|#2 by Ileca|
2022-06-30 at 01:29
|< report >Dude, you got riled 15 minutes after I made this edit. When did I have the chance to write a heads up? Instead, I waited a little to see if there were more angry users before answering but you were met with indifference, hence your new thread (totally fine).|
Quoting the post here as a reference:
d10.4 the percentages are ridiculous and I will be the first to speak against that. If half of all H-scenes contain one theme, it's a giga 3. Should be more like
And none of the plot tags will be applicable for 3.0 from now on, because instead of an ambiguous strong plot presence, you need the VN to literally only talk about that single specific thing. The true heroine looks like x and the whole true route is about y? Too bad, it's just one route, amirite
I'll provide some examples on my most recently completed VN.
Panchira power 3 - exposed pantsu directly related to the plot, starting the whole game. The minigame is strictly about catching pantyshots. Would be 2 now, because it's just half of the non-hcg that have panchira in them and that's not enough. There will now never be a game tagged 3.
Vaginal Masturbation power 3 - 3 whole masturbation scenes in a game that has 7 H-scenes in total, the rest appearing only at the very end of the game. But too bad, you didn't masturbate enough girl. And nobody else ever will.
The opposite end High Amounts of Rape - the remaining 4 scenes being rape, but having every penetration scene be rape is still not good enough to tag it as 3.0
If my % are high, yours are ridiculously low. 0-10-40-100 is basically admitting you are ranking on a 2-point scale as there is no significant difference between your coefs 1 and 2 or 2 and 3. That's exactly why I tried to fix the current lack of difference between coef 2 and 3. Part of the change is btw to have removed the default 2 as 2 is now a pool of lazy "by default" misweighing. Because, yes, "most of the tags in the database which are tagged with power over 2" are not "now incorrect" but were since forever. I personally only browse tags above 2 (if I am not thirsty) because you are certain that when reaching 2 it will be filled with either default 2 or 2=3 bullshit.
I didn't expect this change to be that controversial. I mean, 3 is supposed to be when you search VN where the tag is predominant. Not having VN where the majority of their content is unrelated to the tag.
Yes, you are right, if your true heroine is one amongst 3 or 4, why do we care if she is the "true" heroine? The fact is that 2/3, 3/4 of the VN (ignoring common route) is not about this heroine and her associated tags.
I am not against ambiguity to count as 3. As it is written, not everything is quantifiable. If your tag is permeating the whole VN, then it counts. If your VN is only half comedy, then it's a 2 and only full comedy VN will be 3. That's the intended purpose of weighing. A half comedy half nukige VN having coef 2 for comedy and nukige sounds perfectly reasonable.
"the remaining 4 scenes being rape, having every penetration scene be rape is still not good enough to tag it as 3.0" well duh, if your VN is consensual all the way, but you only rape at the end, being vaginal or not is unrelated to the fact that the majority of the VN is about consensual sex... the tag is called HIGH AMOUNTS of Rape. I am clearly not the one misweighing here.
|#3 by Ezezin|
2022-06-30 at 01:55
|< report >|
I didn't expect this change to be that controversial.
Dunno, I don't have a strong opinion about the change, it's more or less how I tagged visual novel in the past except the "boolean ones" which I used power 2 for most works except game jams.
What I really dislike is devs and new users using power 3 to every tag they use; hard to change those votes without downvoting them (which I don't think this should be done in these cases), specially if a certain tag should have power 1.
Whatever the change (or lack of it) is fine by me.
|#4 by Mrkew|
2022-06-30 at 02:55
|< report >A heads up should probably be done beforehand, not as a reaction. In my opinion, the percentages I put up are also high. You just underestimate how much 10% of a novel is. There is a significant difference between each 10% of a game. A 50 hour VN, you could be reading about one thing for 5 hours in a row. You would definitely not forget that part. And yet you would call it insignificant. Pulling up the definition from google "too small or unimportant to be worth consideration", "meaningless". In other words, something that could be missing from the game and you wouldn't even notice.|
You can easily check my tagging and see I use the whole scale the way the old rules were written. After all, 3 was not mentioned as something that's predominant or that it's the only thing that VN has to offer. It is "very apparent and plays a major role". This is as clear as it gets. People's tagging was not incorrect. A major role in a VN could easily equate a major role in a single route. VNs with routes are rather a collection of stories than a monolith. If there's a disabled heroine and her whole route revolves around it, it does not matter how many other routes the VN has. It's a major plot point. It's a 3, not a 2, and definitely not a 1. One of the heroine just dies at the end of her route? Who cares, she's just 1 of 5. She's not important, her death is meaningless. Stop looking at VNs with routes as a singular story. Grisaia is the VN that comes to westerner's mind when you mention comedy. But it wouldn't be a 3 here, because it has some drama and then it has some H-scenes. And you can't have drama and ero, because then the comedy suddenly stops being a huge part of the game. Going back to the half comedy half nukige, it really baffles me that you insist on that being a 2. It's literally only about 2 things, and you still think it's not significant enough. Again, 3 does not mean 1 and 1 thing only. Such VNs do not exist.
Another example, a VN has 2 heroines - a loli and a cow. They're equally important, equally huge part of the VN. Yet neither of their tags would be a 3, because 50% of a VN is nothing right. Loli heroine tag would only ever be 3.0 if there was 5 or more heroines and 4 of them were lolis, because you don't use the tag for a single heroine game.
"the remaining 4 scenes being rape, having every penetration scene be rape is still not good enough to tag it as 3.0" well duh, if your VN is consensual all the way, but you only rape at the end, being vaginal or not is unrelated to the fact that the majority of the VN is about consensual sex... the tag is called HIGH AMOUNTS of Rape. I am clearly not the one misweighing here.I mentioned that I was talking about just 1 single VN, so you need to look at all the tags I talked about there. Then it becomes apparent that there are no consensual scenes. There is only solo masturbation and rape. Just there 2 things in the H-scenes and numerous scenes of each. Huge part of the game. But neither would be important enough for 3 with your change. There can be multiple 3.0 tags. A game cannot only be about 1 thing. That doesn't happen in reality except for maybe 0.0001% niche DLsite games.
Just take a look at random tags and think how many would stay 3 after this. No matter what category you choose, the number of VNs that would remain at 3 would be minimal. You say the whole charade is just so that 3 is rarer. Well then, why are you making 1 significantly more common with the same change? I wholeheartedly agree with the sentiment than 1 and 3 should be rarer than 2. Then why make the database into only 1 and 2? There will be no 3 for you to search. It is impossible with these requirements.
|#5 by alto|
2022-06-30 at 08:34
|< report >I would vote for a reversion for the moment. IMO it's a case where more general guidelines are better. While the changes are reasonable for things easily quantifiable, i.e. erotic scenes, it's worse for everything else. It conflates importance with prevalence. |
Bullying might be a major theme of the game but only have a tiny amount of active "content" on-screen. Is that a 1 or a 3? I'd think 3 but honestly not be sure now! A six route game having a tag power of 1 or two route having power 2 is not what I'd expect as a user. For the boolean types, I've usually based power on "are they actually important" on a case by case per game basis - Simulation Game is major, No Backlog isn't. I don't think all need to be 3. Agreed on all the points Mrkew makes in #4 too.
My biggest complaint is that it changes all past votes. No-one was previously going these based of these when voting and this is a big change. Sure for "countable content" I expect most people were voting roughly along these lines but for everything else it's now more confusing. And, if people were generally voting along these lines anyway - why do the guidelines need to be changed?
Edit: Thinking about it some more, the less and less I like the % approach even if limited to quantifiable content. If 15 out of 30 ero scenes are about a theme, the idea that it isn't a 3 feels insane - if I'm looking for that I'd be delighted to find that much content! The fact it's "half" the VN is irrelevant - 15 scenes of what I'm looking for is *great*. On the other hand, a game with 3 of 4 scenes would be a 3 but using the tag system I'd but MUCH happier to find the first which I'm now less likely to find.
For more thematic and fuzzy tags, I'd naturally weigh them on different scales and the % would be different. I strongly disagree with the idea that a VN that's only half comedy (however you measure that!) should be a 2. That's a MAJOR part of a VN and like Mrkew says, 3 would be practically extinct outside niche games with a threshold at 70%. From a user perspective, if there's a five route game with 20 hours of content with a type of hero/heroine on-screen (including common route - I don't know why you'd exclude that?!) out of 40 hours, I am super interested. The total size of the game does not matter a jot. It would count as significant to me and I'd vote 3 every time.
I don't like the idea that users need to add up the length of everything to figure out how much "content" there is - ok MAYBE that's reasonable for ero but not anything else. If someone plays through 2 of 3 routes and didn't know that the last is twice the length, it does not invalidate their tags if they would in fact fall below the % threshold.
I'd much rather leave the rules loose and let people decide based on instinct and feeling, it's too hard to write more complex rules that work better. Even if you find some that work, people aren't going to read them fully. The old ones were simple and easy to follow.Last modified on 2022-06-30 at 09:57
|#6 by bassttark|
2022-06-30 at 10:51
|< report >I very much prefer the new guidelines, especially regarding level 3 tags which I see as something that should only be used for a few selected tags when the whole game revolves around that theme.|
The examples that you mention here only seem to confirm it. If a game has 4 heroines and 1 of them is disabled then it is not a game about disabled heroines and it should not have a 3, it is a game that includes disabled heroines and hence it can have a 2, but there are other games where all heroines are disabled and those games do deserve to be distinguished with a 3. If a game has two heroines: a loli and a cow, these tags do not deserve a 3. If both of them are prostitutes then the prostitute heroine tag should have a 3, so it is definitely not impossible to have tags with a 3. If a game is half-comedy and half-drama then it should not have a 3 for comedy because there are definitely some vn that are purely comedic and we need to distinguish these two gradients.Last modified on 2022-06-30 at 10:52
|#7 by NaioHoras|
2022-06-30 at 10:51
|< report >well, to put it bluntly, Ileca, this change is not very good one in my opinion either. Alto has pretty much explained what I have had in my mind, but to put it simply, you underestimated how people perceive tag ratings, and that is the reason why I didn't respond to your proposal before. there is also the fact that people never read guidelines and are most likely gonna ignore it anyway and vote on their own.|
% of a VN content cannot represent what significant and insignificant in a VN, and my recent played Tsuki ni Yorisou Otome no Sahou shows as a pretty good example. Existential Crisis (not a spoiler btw) is an important plot point in the game. however, it doesn't have too long of a screentime. hell, the text for that is only like 20 minutes in total throughout the game, which is like 40 hours long, but it's pretty much what motivates the protagonist the entire time, and what the bad ending is about. otherwise, the game is pretty much a cheerful one.
if we apply the current, that tag woud have a value of less than one, which is just nonsense.
yes, it would make pretty much of tags subjective, but is that not why we have, votes, in the first place? it never make too much problem before. while I do think tags sometimes do have inappropriate rating, subjectively, they are pretty much a minor one. and we have tag overrule to accommodate that when it becomes necessary.
the prev guidelines are way better, and the problem with it lay not on how the guidelines were written, it is just we don't have enough people willing to tag VN themselves.
if I had to take a vote for the rule, it would be for a reversion.
btw, I really triggered when you said this:
Yes, you are right, if your true heroine is one amongst 3 or 4, why do we care if she is the "true" heroine? The fact is that 2/3, 3/4 of the VN (ignoring common route) is not about this heroine and her associated tags.did you seriously just... deny the importance of heroine in visual novel?Last modified on 2022-06-30 at 15:17
|#8 by entra|
2022-06-30 at 11:14
|< report >The change is not good. The tags are not about a VN" revolving" around a theme or screen time prevalence. They describe the content and its significance. This is not something objective you can use a percent table for. It's not something everyone will agree on either. If you are measuring based on prevalence then surely you should also take the VN length into account.. which then messes up the percent criteria.|
Like NaioHoras says, this is what votes are for and generally work from what I see - could you maybe point out some VNs or tags you think would change based on this? It might be you see the tags as being used for finding "themed" games but not everyone else does? I can see why you'd only want 3 in that case. When browsing if somethings 3 I expect it's significant. A normal route among however many would count to me.
|#9 by shinytentacool|
2022-06-30 at 14:12
|< report >Don't fix what isn't broken. What prompted this change?|
|#10 by beliar|
2022-06-30 at 14:51
|< report >I agree with everything said by NaioHoras, Alto and MrKew. Don't fix what isn't broken. The idea that what's important in a Vn can be quantified by percentages is... well slightly insane. Tags will always be subjective, but that's why we have the voting for. So that people could decide how much of an importance they put on ant single tag in that VN.|
The previous tagging descriptions were as good as it gets. Like MrKew has said, "is very apparent and plays a major role" is as clear as it gets when it comes to what needs to be voted '3'.
And what, if the Vn has 10 heroines, you would vote each of their presence as a 1, just because each of them somehow constitutes 1/10th of the content in your eyes? The idea is just insane! Depending on how much the interaction with heroines is important in the Vn, each of them should be rated 2 or 3, because every route is as important as the sum of all routes.
Anyway, I'm strongly against this and hope you come to your senses.
|#11 by kei-tr|
2022-06-30 at 15:33
|< report >Just to be sure, this new system completely disregards intensity or effect of a tag on a game and only values quantity right? For example, if a vn has relatively short but heavy drama (something on same level with terminal illness or dramatic love triangle) that still will deserve Drama 1.0 while a vn with much longer but much lighter drama (something on same level with lover's quarrel) will be Drama 2.0 right?|
This also brings my mind the vn I am currently reading, Cafe Stella. Whole vn/theme revolves around cafe, from it's description to even it's name. All heroines are waitresses and protagonist is cook. They talk about cafe even when they are not working at the cafe at that moment and trying to come up with new recipes and items for menu. But still, scenes happening inside the Cafe less than 50%, I think. So, this vn only deserves Cafe 2.0?Last modified on 2022-06-30 at 15:47
|#12 by Ileca|
2022-06-30 at 21:56
|< report >Being in the minority, I reverted my changes, to keep going with the ambiguous rules that everybody can interpret how they see fit.|
I thought I was basically ratifying how the system was supposed to be used while adding some concrete/stricter boundaries but, oh boy, I was wrong. I was ready to adjust the percentages but the backlash is diverging too much from my views so I am clearly not ratifying anything.
Well, "break things to get feedback" is true indeed. >.>
No, I didn't came to my sense with all your arguments. When I search for chocolate, I don't want my VN to be spoiled by freaking chalk girls! Being 2 is not an insult but accepting that in 3 makes the category useless and what boggles my mind. Giving 3 to Heroine with Glasses because one heroine out of 4 is a meganekko is what is insane because when I search for Heroine with Glasses, at 3, I expect to have a healthy dose of glasses, a shower of glasses, not something that is for the most part devoid of glasses! (I am kidding, please get the damn glasses off me! Urrr, so disgusting...)
because every route is as important as the sum of all routesBut clearly not weight-wise! Why would you want to find those VN with 10 heroines in the 3 category??? Why are you equating 1/10 of content with 7/10 of content? If I want imouto, it's not to have a ridiculous tiny portion of 1/10 imouto. Weight makes no freaking sense with your system!
If we can't even agree on that, let's leave it at that and keep going with 2=3 where pretty much everything qualify as a 3 because it is "very apparent and plays
Let's keep with finding at 3, for comedy, half to full comedy VN. What is at 2? Don't ask me, probably nothing.
Clearly not broken.
If your theme can't account for a big part of a VN, then maybe accept that your theme is... maybe not the focus of your VN? Maybe you have to accept that the focus of your VN is... shitty SoL? That would be hard to accept, I understand.
From a user perspective, if there's a five route game with 20 hours of content with a type of hero/heroine on-screen (including common route - I don't know why you'd exclude that?!) out of 40 hours, I am super interested. The total size of the game does not matter a jot. It would count as significant to me and I'd vote 3 every time.I agree, 20 hours of content is significant and yummy but you still need to throw away 20 hours of content that doesn't interest you. Why do you consider it an insult for this VN to be a 2? It's like 2 has no use whatsoever. Only 1 should be used to filter out VN from searches that do not try to pinpoint a title.
You are all too anal about those % anyway. Already the ridiculous examples with the tape measure. The goal was that outside of what is easy to count, you would have some concrete beacon to count by rule of thumb. What, did you think I was expecting you to count the lines in the script? As if it was possible. Didn't you learn to visualize fractions at school?
First 5 hours of 50 hours is on the limit so it will be a 1.5, then, yes, something like 4 hours out of 50 is insignificant, a joke. Tho there is a difference between info dumping and something spread through the whole VN in a way that makes the whole VN feel [tag]. 20 minutes of content out of 40 hours is a 3?? Well, if your protagonist is dealing "with major uncertainties about the nature of reality or the accuracy of his perceptions" all the time, by his actions, why are you counting only the lines of dialogue? A theme doesn't have to be vocalized to be expressed. If the actions of the protagonist are the logical expression of that tag, then they count. That's where you interpret the rules and were the voting system come in handy. Where you shouldn't imo is to think that if truly your tag only account for 20 minutes of 40 hours, it is worth mentioning and should be a 2. It's the same for your 5-/50 hours of content.
This also brings my mind the vn I am currently reading, Cafe Stella. Whole vn/theme revolves around cafe, from it's description to even it's name. All heroines are waitresses and protagonist is cook. They talk about cafe even when they are not working at the cafe at that moment and trying to come up with new recipes and items for menu. But still, scenes happening inside the Cafe less than 50%, I think. So, this vn only deserves Cafe 2.0?Facepalm. Cafe is about games "taking place inside a cafe or a similar location". If you are not happy with the definition then bring that to a tag mod. It's wholly irrelevant to the conversation at hand. Should this tag be about being inside a cafe or talking about cafe at school, being a cook and having cafe in your name?
For example, if a vn has relatively short but heavy drama (something on same level with terminal illness or dramatic love triangle) that still will deserve Drama 1.0 while a vn with much longer but much lighter drama (something on same level with lover's quarrel) will be Drama 2.0 right?So, the mere contained mention of a dying character should be counted 2? And be superior or equal to light drama that is consistent and heavily present?
did you seriously just... deny the importance of heroine in visual novel?I denied the importance of the qualifying adjective "true" to an heroine compared to the others if their screen time is equal. Why should I care if an heroine is central, tag-wise, if I get equal content? Where I agree tho is to give a 1 to heroines if there are ten of them. How many are there of these anyway?Last modified on 2022-06-30 at 22:46
|#13 by butterflygrrl|
2022-06-30 at 23:02
|< report >Not sure how many people are going to read those rules and attempt to apply them anyway. People will continue to have different opinions and argue and it's the votes of multiple people over time that will average out those ratings. |
As for games with ten heroines, the first game that comes to my mind has five main routes and five side routes, and I gave 1.0 ratings to tags applying only to side route characters and 2.0 ratings to tags for main route characters. It would feel ridiculous to me to give a 3 rating to a tag applying to only one character out of ten, but the 1/2 difference helps mark their relative importance to the game.
|#14 by Ileca|
2022-06-30 at 23:20
|< report >It's like when I get reverted by Mrkew for making Miyazono Mikumo a side heroine because, well, she is important and all, but she is not compared to Hoshina Risa the VN is dedicated to. She doesn't have ero scenes and while I didn't read it, she appears in a single CG / 8 in the website's samples. She will probably have her own game later. The girl is a sidekick.|
It's like not understanding the need to hierarchize information. If you don't check the website, you will believe Miyazono Mikumo has a route based on the character tab.
Yes, I shamelessly shoehorned this vaguely related issue here.
|#15 by Mrkew|
2022-06-30 at 23:47
|< report >Main character =/= heroine, I think we've been over this already. A character that's on the screen constantly is a main character, regardless of their heroine status. Or do you remove male characters from their main character positions because you can't fuck them?|
EDIT: Hey, you can even see her importance from the tagging system! See the 3.0 on Female friend?Last modified on 2022-06-30 at 23:56
|#16 by sakurakoi|
2022-07-01 at 06:20
|< report >|
Main character =/= heroine, I think we've been over this alreadyand here I thought it was simple common sense, that 'Main characters', 'Side characters' and 'Make an appearance' was a simple three tiered system. One which separates characters by role, importance or screen time depending on the context. With 'make an appearance' even being reserved for very short appearances, so it's rather a simple two-tiers, an either-or.
If there are no other side characters, then the not-love interest would definitely be the side character. That should be common sense.
|#17 by Mrkew|
2022-07-01 at 12:02
|< report >I'm just going to let the guidelines speak for themselves, since as #7 said nobody seems to read them. |
A character that plays a major role in the story or gets a lot of screen time. In general, a heroine with an own route always qualifies and so do sidekicks/classmates that are very often seen.
|#18 by xiandora|
2022-07-28 at 09:03
|< report >Just thought I'd pitch in, if nothing else I'd support setting the "default" to 1 - in the sense that when applying a new tag it's initial score is set to 1, to get away from people defaulting to 2. You could still change it to 2 or 3 as normal.|
Personally I've been *trying* to tag things in three tiers;
1 = appears enough to worth mentioning, but plays no larger role OR is niche/significant enough as a tag to warrant including despite very low presence.
2 = appears regularly and/or plays a larger role OR is niche/significant but has a low-ish presence.
3 = appears frequently and/or plays a major role OR is niche/significant but has regular presence.
So the only question marks would be niche/significant, which I only tend to tag if I'm personally interested in them or otherwise somewhat well informed about it. Essentially if something niche/significant has a 1-score worth of presence it's a 3, at least in theory. The biggest problem with any such tags is figuring out how niche they are, which is exactly why I avoid touching those I'm not familiar with.
Simple example of common tag score 1-3 for High School (setting):
3: Protagonist is a high school student, and a significant portion of the common route and likely portions of individual routes takes place in school.
2: Protagnist is a teacher in school, but the school doesn't serve as the main stage for most events happening. Alternatively Prot is a student again, but less time is spent in school compared to 3.
1: Protagonist is a high school student but the school only serves to feature a few events to connect characters, most events happen elsewhere. Alternatively Protagonist himself doesn't go to school, but one or more other main characters do, and the school appears as a stage occasionally because of that.
Simple example of niche tag score 1-3 for Alchemy (theme) - Worth noting that I just picked a tag from the list that I felt is probably fit for a niche tag, the only tags I personally work with that do are for sexual content:
3: Alchemy either makes a regular appearance in the story but isn't necessarily a major plot element OR is a non-insignificant plot element but doesn't have much actual "screen time", rather it's importance and effects are largely described in text.
2: Alchemy either makes a decent amount of appearances in the story but isn't a major plot element OR is a non-insignificant plot element but is rarely brought up in either "screen time" or discussions/text OR is a insignificant plot element but is regularly discussed/in text.
An easier example of the last part of 2 would be something fit for a niche tag which the Prot has as a hobby/is interested in and ends up having pointless in-game discussions about with friends.
1: Alchemy either makes a few appearances in the story but isn't a major plot element OR is a relevant plot element but is rarely present in either "screen time" or text/discussion OR is irrelevant to the plot but is somewhat regularly present in text/discussion.
Example being a modern day character being interested in the concepts of alchemy without any actual alchemy taking place, sometimes discussing it with others/to the player.
The reasoning is simply that some tags and the content related to it is just too significant or niche to fit the standards for tagging, certain things will be very significant to the plot even if it has a fairly low presence, or may be so rare that it would never get tagged if following standard rules.
The issue is that this isn't really something that should or could be mentioned in the guidelines, since as I already mentioned, properly identifying such tags usually require some above average interest.
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