Flagging "false" tags (& traits)

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#1 by Yorhel
2022-08-05 at 13:19
< report >Over a month ago, I silently added a new feature that allows you to indicate whether a tag is a "lie", i.e. something that the VN wants you to think at the start, but which turns out to be false as you progress through the story. Given that I never announced this feature and it's not even mentioned in the guidelines (yet), it obviously hasn't received much attention or feedback.

The option is currently available as a spoiler setting in the tag voting form. When flagged as a "lie", the tag is not considered a spoiler but it will be crossed out when "spoil me!" is selected. This is pretty basic functionality, but I'm not sure if it properly handles the intended use cases or if it's even worth the effort at all. In particular:

- Right now, false tags are never considered a spoiler. How often does it happen that a spoiler tag is later revealed to be false? Is this worth handling?
- Likewise in the other direction, the revealing of the tag as a lie is currently always considered a major spoiler. I doubt it's worth the trouble to support indicating whether this should be a minor or major spoiler.

There's a list of tags flagged as a lie, beware: spoilers!

This feature should probably also be available for character traits, but I'd like to see it used more often on VNs first for better evaluation. The flag is not available in the search function yet, either, but that could change as well.

Anyway, thoughts?
#2 by Marc402
2022-08-05 at 14:36
< report >As expected, the majority of the few tags currently marked with it are about incest. This is why I don't like it and don't use it. There are quite a few VNs with supposedly blood related heroines that turn out to be non blood related (or something else entirely). Previously, I could just check whether the blood-related incest tag was among the tag list w/o spoilers enabled (or only minor spoilers) to verify this. Now I'll have to turn on major spoilers and risk getting spoiled about the entire story when I only want to be spoiled about this one detail. Even if I only keep the sexual content category enabled, it can still contain other spoiler tags.

There's also one more problem. Take Tsukihime, for example. It has the false tag Protagonist's Full Sister as a Heroine but even though this is crossed out when "spoil me" is enabled, it is still counted when I do a search with this tag with spoilers turned on. So if you do a search like this (spoiler), it'll still count the false tag even though it shouldn't since the 'spoil me' button is turned on. And as a result I'd get wrong results and have to waste time going into the VN's page and having to turn on spoilers to verify whether it's a false tag on not. And in the process, get spoiled about everything else.

There could also be cases of when someone wants to do a non-spoiler search but without false tags. Let's say someone wants a blood-related incest that's established at the beginning and continues to the end, with no surprises. If they have spoilers turned on, they might get VNs where the relationship between the charcters and the incest is only revealed near the end. If they have spoilers turned off, they'll still get false tag VNs where it may turn out to not be incest at all. Again, the only way to avoid this would be to manually check the tag list of a VN with spoilers fully enabled.

Therefore, please add a button to disable false tags when doing searches, and preferably also when simply browsing the tag list of a VN.
#3 by NaioHoras
2022-08-05 at 14:46
< report >
As expected, the majority of the few tags currently marked with it are about incest.
it's because it was me who tagged them and I only play incest games. mystery and plot twist focused VN usually have false tags (like DanganRonpa), which I very reluctant to tag because currently false tag is set as no spoiler by default, you can see them on the tag cloud with no spoiler, even though they are supposed to be major.

well, since we have a query for it, I have tagged and am tagging a bunch of VN I haven't before for a more accurate result, including the spoilerous false tags. I put the the corresponding spoiler in the tag comment, so perhaps it would be useful if the query has the notes as well.

even though this is crossed out when "spoil me" is enabled, it is still counted when I do a search with this tag with spoilers turned on.
yes, like Yorhel said in the initial post, the flag is not implemented yet in the search function. there will be option to exclude false traits.Last modified on 2022-08-05 at 15:02
#4 by Marc402
2022-08-05 at 14:54
< report >
there will be option to exclude false traits.
I don't mind if there is a feature to exclude them completely. I hope the flag is implemented soon since things are a bit messy right now, like with that Tsukihime example.

The flag is not available in the search function yet, either, but that could change as well.
Please consider adding an option to disable them in the tag list of a VN as well.
#5 by Draconyan
2022-08-05 at 16:10
< report >I'm very curious how the tag Non-Japanese Voice Acting can turn out to be false in the VN Lian'ai Qitan ~Bu Cunzai de Xiatian~.
#6 by NaioHoras
2022-08-05 at 16:19
< report >yeah, the guy must thought the leftmost box is for no spoiler lol

I think it should have been differentiated by something, like a different, more standing out color for example, since people seems to often miss anything with text for some reason, even though this site is all about VN, which requires people to... read.

one more thing, false flag seems to ignore the other spoiler settings no matter how many people voted for the other ones, which is really problematic when it is wrongly marked.Last modified on 2022-08-05 at 16:26
#7 by vempele
2022-08-06 at 14:40
< report >I don't think false is the right word for it - as a programmer if I see spoiler=false I obviously assume it means "not a spoiler" and anything else is a crime against logic! Maybe fake or lie would be better? Or "false tag".Last modified on 2022-08-06 at 14:46
#8 by rampaa
2022-08-06 at 15:42
< report >If something is marked as a "lie" by even one person, it seems like we cannot reverse it with our votes, see the example given by #5.

Now I'll have to turn on major spoilers and risk getting spoiled about the entire story when I only want to be spoiled about this one detail.
This is a huge problem that's affecting me as well. I want to know some certain tags'/traits' presence without spoiling myself about other things. But fear not, I remember Yorhel giving +1 to a solution for this problem, so it's bound to be solved sooner or later!
#9 by weter
2022-08-08 at 18:08
< report >So be sure to make it possible to search for specific tags without their fake variations, make under 'invert/child tags' in the search one more check box to search or exclude fake tags, because now even with a major spoiler is still shown (link)
#10 by Yorhel
2022-08-09 at 08:54
< report >The spoiler level and the "lie" flag can now be set separately, which solves at least one problem (in exchange for even more buttons to press when voting on tags cry).

Yup, that's also still on my to-do list.

EDIT: Filters for the tag search will come, but only if this feature has more uses than just the current ~100 tags or so.Last modified on 2022-08-09 at 12:18
#11 by NaioHoras
2022-08-10 at 06:48
< report >
Filters for the tag search will come, but only if this feature has more uses than just the current ~100 tags or so
:'(

but in all seriousness, I have found more "lie" traits compared to tags.
the obvious reason would be the "fake" traits (like Fake Suicide, Fake Rape, Fake Death, Pretending, Disguise, etc.), which undoubtedly will create "lie" traits surrounding them.
moreover, traits have more specific application than tags. let's say a heroine's death is revealed to be false later in the story, however, Death of Heroine cannot be marked as a "lie" tag since there is another heroine whose death is not a "lie". this is not always true for traits.Last modified on 2022-08-10 at 16:12
#12 by notauser
2022-08-10 at 17:12
< report >#5 The game has voice acting in a made up language that somewhat resembles Japanese, but in the middle of the VN it's revealed that they were actually speaking some ancient dialect of Japanese all along.

Btw is the sqlpad link supposed to work? I just get a white page with some errors about Strict-Transport-Security headers in devconsole.
#13 by Yorhel
2022-08-10 at 18:50
< report >
Btw is the sqlpad link supposed to work?
It tends to not work on older browsers or those based on older engines, but any up-to-date Firefox/chrome should work just fine. What are you using?
#14 by notauser
2022-08-11 at 02:08
< report >Pale Moon, I guess that counts as older engine.
#15 by xiandora
2022-08-15 at 21:42
< report >I suspect this will be messy.. though I'm all for it. Tagging never really supported any form of plot twist well, you basically had to put anything such as major spoiler regardless of situation.

I think the biggest problem is finding a implementation that is both visible and intuitive to the average user, without risking misuse due to misunderstandings. Dunno if I'll remember to check back in here anytime soon, but those are my thoughts about it.


*Edit* I also just found out about profile trait-tagging, and holy crap do the events look depressive when I see it all lined up - maybe that's why I'm where I am.Last modified on 2022-08-15 at 22:26
#16 by barfboy
2022-08-16 at 11:56
< report >Girl trait Role > Present in Flashbacks Only is both a wrong trait and obvious to the audience. The story never admits it because J can't accept it but she's obviously his partner Misery An odd situation perhaps and maybe an example. I know I've seen plenty of others.
Ootori Aoi
is a more direct example. I had to just add the false trait since apparently either nobody added it or perhaps it was removed because it's a false trait.

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