Splitting a characters' gender & sex

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#51 by trickzzter
2022-10-02 at 06:23
< report >
trans woman postop
Sex/gender:actual:female

trans man postop
Sex/gender:actual:male
It's not entirely correct.
In the current day and age it's impossible to fully convert human body into the opposite sex. Changing appearance != changing sex. Doctors can't change genes and chromosomes.
But in science fiction it may be possible. So we should probably differentiate these cases somehow.
#52 by Ileca
2022-10-02 at 06:51
< report >It is fiction. I read a VN where the guy can magically bimbofy women despite violating the law of conservation of matter. If they say they changed sex then they did it, like, you know, in every genderbent fantasy. Genes don't matter anyway. If you talk about sterility, are you implying that infertile women are not women? If you are talking about how vaginoplasty is not perfect and somehow VN would realistically depict that aspect, what do you want, a vaginoplasty sex option? This is too much nitpicking imo for too few characters. If you don't want postop transwomen when searching for women, I proposed female/male_assignment_at_birth traits to be able to distinguish them. Someone who changes sex in the middle of the story shouldn't use those traits but instead Subject of > Sex Change.
Aren't we already marking Personality > Transwoman as sex:female?
#53 by Yorhel
2022-10-02 at 09:36
< report >I expected some disagreements, but I'm glad to see there's still a productive discussion going on. \o/

I like Ileca's proposal and the suggestions building upon that. It makes intuitive sense to me to have separate fields for physical and non-physical sex/gender, so that we can keep the porn-relevant information clearly defined and searchable while still properly covering the less physical aspects with a different field.

I've updated the beta (and reset the DB, sadly) with the proposed 4 fields: gender, spoiler gender, sex and spoiler sex. So far the selectable options are still the old (unknown, male, female, both), but obviously those need to be updated as well. For sex that'll probably be:
- Unknown
- Male
- Female
- None / Asexual Sexless
- possibly other options related to the presence of boobs, balls, dicks and vags, added as we find them.

And for gender:
- Unknown
- Male
- Female
- Nonbinary
- more options added as we find them (I agree with a 2+ devs rule, perhaps even 3+)

But I see nothing that disproves this can be done by just using traits.
Indeed, but that applies to a whole lot of other fields as well. Heck, nothing is more useless than the blood type field. Thing is, some information is nicer to hardcode in the form, and I'll be the judge of which information that is. :)
(For points about how making this a field is somehow detrimental to editing or searching, I'm all ears, but arguments about relevance are a judgement call)Last modified on 2022-10-02 at 17:12
#54 by beliar
2022-10-02 at 09:37
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Aren't we already marking Personality > Transwoman as sex:female?
We are only supposed to mark sex as 'female' if the sex is changed for the transwoman, however currently none of the VNs where that happens have any characters attached to them, so none of the current TS characters would be marked with 'female'.

Your t19156.47 proposal is such a sprawling mess of confusion, that no one will ever use it correctly.

Also, Newhalf is not a thing that exists - it's literally just a Japanese word for a pre-op transsexual. Don't ask to return it back - it's not happening. Admittedly, there was a trait Newhalf (Not Born Male), which was renamed to Dickgirl. There are a lot, and I mean 'a lot', of VNs, with characters who are born with overall female body characteristics, but only male genitalia. Some Vns incorrectly identify them as futanari, where other Vns do not use any special word to identify them. There are also a few cases in the db, where the characters were born female, but had a penis surgically implanted into them, replacing the vagina. Currently the also fall under the definition of a Dickgirl.

Everything under Transgender is deleted. Also Dickgirl and Intersex.
Yeah, because searching a single trait is so much harder than using the mess you are trying to propose.

Need creation of female_assignment_at_birth and male_assignment_at_birth traits (might not be optimal if someone can think of something better... wat, Beliar? you want a third "sex at birth" field?? :D).
Well, we wouldn't need such traits if you didn't try to complicate a perfectly simple preset field. Also yes, yes I want a 'sex at birth' field. Thank you for the only reasonable idea you have yet had in this thread.
#55 by flowerno9
2022-10-02 at 09:54
< report >t19156.42
However, what if a character is introduced post-transition and is already treated as a gender they identify as by other characters? By your criteria, they would not be considered transsexual and that would be illogical to me.
I don't see why wouldn't they be considered transsexual. I said that undergoing transition isn't strictly necessary, not that it excludes post-transition characters. Whether they go through transition or not doesn't change the fact that they identify as sex that is opposite to their biological sex, and that's the main point of the definition.
We can define them as identifying as opposite sex without referencing any medical terminology like "gender dysphoria" or "gender identity disorder" to make it more clear.
You said that we should not use a separate field for "gender" and that "gender" would just cause confusion and edit wars. As an alternative, you suggested we use "sex" field which would include those who at some point had gender dysphoria in "other" category rather than category that reflects their sex. So I understood that you are saying that a character can only be placed in "other" category if it was explicitly shown that at some point they had gender dysphoria. That would not be the case if a character is introduced post-transition and if the game doesn't have any hints about what his life was like prior to transitioning.
Now you suggest that transsexual don't neccessarily need to have gender dysphoria, they just need to identify as different sex. But that just makes your proposal even more problematic. A lot of people who consider themselves a part of trans community argue that trans people identify as different gender, not sex. (Admitadly, they themselves are not consistent with that terminology and almost always will start using gender and sex interchangeably at some point. Hence why we have people saying trans people should be able to change theri SEX on ther ID card or be able to tick particular SEX in a checkbox etc.) As a result, you are coming back at the usage of "gender", despite you wanted to avoid it. So you are not actually solving the problem.
#56 by alianoralacanta
2022-10-02 at 10:32
< report >I would like to mention an issue specifically with "asexual" and with some related terms. Where I come from, "asexual" is used purely for sexual orientation for people, and for reproduction method regarding plants.

Neither makes sense in the "sex" category as a synonym for "none". Asexual plants typically have male and female sexes in addition to their agender status, sometimes both on the same plant (science has yet to identify any (a)sexual orientation for these types of plant). Most asexual people possess full sexual anatomy, and would thus have male/female/intersex classification in addition to being asexually orientated. (In simple terms, intersex is to sex what androgyny is to gender presentation). Unless VNDB proposes to turn the "sex" category into a checkbox-style category, forcing people to choose between "asexual" and "male/female/intersex" when adding this item would degrade the quality of search.

The scientific term for someone who has literally no reproductive organs (and the implication that such would be expected for their species) is genital aplasia. Note the "genital" is essential here, since aplasia by itself simply means the incomplete formation of any particular organ or tissue normally expected for a particular species.

The scientific term for someone who has no gender is "agender". This uses the same logic as "asexual", which is to say the "a-" is without and the "gender" is what that person does not have.



In summary, I am proposing, in comparison to Yorhel's proposal:

- the addition of "intersex" in the "sex" category
- changing "asexual" in the "sex" category to "genital aplasia"
- the addition of "agender" to the "gender" category
- the addition of "asexual" in the "sexual orientation" category/tag (if it is to be included at all)
#57 by Ezezin
2022-10-02 at 10:41
< report >I'm tired and angry but I can't sleep, Ileca's proposal in #47 is a mess and you know what? I'm fed on this drama of VNDB users "I don't care about western/Itch.io/queer games" and twitter's "VNDB is not queer friendly enough". Who had the brilliant idea of appointing me as a mod? life was much easier being a regular editor. *cries in a corner* *dramatic scream*

So I propose in having both a simplified option and an advance option for both sides on the discussion.

First, the "simplified version" (let's call it "sex" for short) is a dropdown menu with very simple and easy to understand options:
* Male
* Female
* Trans Male
* Trans Female
* Futanari
* Intersex
* Femboy/Trap/Otokonoko
* Dickgirl
* Other/Alternative
* Unknown
[Copied from Beliar's suggestion on #41, but adding and removing some stuff]

This is the default selection that all users will see. Do you only play Japanese games, don't care about those "0.1%" western queer games, don't know what gender means, does your main language not have different meanings for sex and gender or do you think messing with sex and gender of a character is way to convoluted and slow? This is for you.

Below this we have "spoiler sex", "apparent sex" or both (whatever you decide, I'm fine either way) with the exact same selections.

Then we add some very easy to understand and short definitions on each term (mostly indicating the differences between each sex option). The idea is to put them on the edit form and not on the FAQs; for this they don't have to be more than 2 sentences long. Something like a clickable arrow or icon to expand the definitions (like the list of "recognized sites" from the release edit form, that shows the full links).

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On the right side of this menu we have a checkbox similar to an advanced option (let's call it "body/gender options" for short).

Don't worry, most of you won't ever touch this in your life... Unless you took part on a queer game development, you like queer games or if you are curious. If that's the case, keep reading.

Clicking on this menu will replace the previous options with two new selections: "Body" (I don't like this name, but I'm too tired to think on a new one):
* Male
* Female
* Intersex
* Femboy
* Dickgirl
* Futanari
* Other/Alternative
* Unknown

Below this we have "spoiler body", "apparent body", both or none (whatever you decide).

And Gender:
* Male
* Female
* Non-binary
* Unknown

Below this we have "spoiler gender", "apparent gender", both or neither (whatever you decide, but I'll go with neither for simplicity sake).

The mix and match of these two options will depend on definitions and examples if we can agree after some discussion. Sadly, this must go to the FAQs, as I expect this to be quite big.

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Now we reached the interesting part where the magic takes place:

If a user decided to use the "sex version", what is actually happening is that body and gender will be automatically filled based on what option was decided:
* Male = Body: Male | Gender: Male
* Female = Body: Female | Gender: Female
* Trans Male = Body: Female | Gender: Male
* Trans Female = Body: Male | Gender: Female
* Futanari = Body: Futanari | Gender: Unknown
* Intersex = Body: Intersex | Gender: Unknown
* Femboy/Trap/Otokonoko = Body: Femboy/Trap/Otokonoko | Gender: Unknown
* Dickgirl = Body: Dickgirl | gender: Unknown
* Other/Alternative = Body: Other/Alternative | Gender: Unknown
* Unknown = Body: Unknown | Gender: Unknown

Edit: I'm sure I didn't cover all cases but I think more categories and auto filling can be added if needed. And since sex ≠ body ≠ gender, we can have more combinations for characters without changing one category or another, giving us more freedom if we want more character options without sacrificing (too much) the simplicity of the main sex field. Notice, for example, how I removed "Non-binary" from Beliar's original proposal from the sex field (which I used as basis for this proposal), but it is still present in the gender field.

Not sure where to put body swapped characters though, should those be treated as trans or should they have their own category?

I'm sorry Ileca, but I don't think the bunch of subcategories for Non-Binary is going to work without cluttering the menu.Last modified on 2022-10-02 at 13:22
#58 by Ileca
2022-10-02 at 10:45
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We are only supposed to mark sex as 'female' if the sex is changed for the transwoman, however currently none of the VNs where that happens have any characters attached to them, so none of the current TS characters would be marked with 'female'.
I meant post op, yes. You have sex:female transwomen > link.

Also, Newhalf is not a thing that exists - it's literally just a Japanese word for a pre-op transsexual. Don't ask to return it back - it's not happening. Admittedly, there was a trait Newhalf (Not Born Male), which was renamed to Dickgirl. There are a lot, and I mean 'a lot', of VNs, with characters who are born with overall female body characteristics, but only male genitalia. Some Vns incorrectly identify them as futanari, where other Vns do not use any special word to identify them. There are also a few cases in the db, where the characters were born female, but had a penis surgically implanted into them, replacing the vagina. Currently the also fall under the definition of a Dickgirl.
Dude, you unilaterally decided to delete the Newhalf trait and renamed Newhalf (Not Born Male) as Dickgirl after we had extensively debated about those traits in t12537 (I am not rereading this thread but I found "You know Ileca, I think I agree with everything on your list. *nods* Good job, pal, get a virtual cookie. :-)" Aah, this time when you were kind to me... (because you agreed)).
Newhalf is basically a synonym of shemale and you are telling me "there are a lot, and I mean 'a lot', of VNs, with characters who are born with overall female body characteristics, but only male genitalia".

Yeah, because searching a single trait is so much harder than using the mess you are trying to propose.
Then tell us which traits do you want to preserve because you find they are too annoying to search with this new field?

Finding transwomen or transmen is easy (sex:man + gender:female and sex:female + gender:male).
Non-binary too (gender:non-binary).
Intersex too (sex:intersex).
Only finding transgender is a pain because you have 4 different combinations.
We could keep the transgender trait to be applied to post op trans. Then no need for those two assigned at birth traits. I thought they would allow us to merge Newhalf and Newhalf (Not Born Male) and kills two birds with one stone.

Well, we wouldn't need such traits if you didn't try to complicate a perfectly simple preset field. Also yes, yes I want a 'sex at birth' field. Thank you for the only reasonable idea you have yet had in this thread.
Dude, get real, I didn't open this thread. Remember?

Edit: didn't read the two last posts, I am going to bed.Last modified on 2022-10-02 at 10:48
#59 by PabloC
2022-10-02 at 11:21
< report >
trans woman postop
Sex/gender:actual:female
trait:male_assignment_at_birth

trans man postop
Sex/gender:actual:male
trait:female_assignment_at_birth
Okay, now that's just plain wrong. This only works in total fantasy/SF, where character gets reincarnated or turns into opposite sex by magic (that you covered by separate "genderbent" option yourself). If it's just "postop", then trans women have XY chromosomes in every single cell of their bodies (well, except erythrocytes ;)). Their >sex< is very much male and it will stay that way for the foreseeable future. Same with trans men.

Need creation of female_assignment_at_birth and male_assignment_at_birth traits
No, we don't need this nonsense. Nobody ever "assigns" anything (it's a description of objective reality, not some random "assignment") and sex is usually known way BEFORE birth. Also, this will basically be the same as "sex" in all cases except for fantasy genderbender scenarios.

they could be trans (Bridget)
Ah yes, a perfectly normal boy who was forced to pretend to be a girl against his will due to superstitions and sick culture (that advocates for murdering children), who struggled his whole life to be accepted as a boy (that was his main motivation to fight), only to finally give up and surrender to social pressure and grooming. Perfect representation of modern day LGBTQ+ community (I mean, they went out of their way and demanded to be represented that way, so I guess this is how they view themselves, no?). :P

Politically incorrect jokes aside, I really don't see the point of "gender" field. It is completely redundant in almost every single example from t19156.47:

- normal males and females - sex = gender, making the latter redundant
- traps - "custom" gender has to be clarified by traits anyway, and apparent gender is the same as apparent sex, hence redundant
- trans woman preop - putting trans M>F as "sex" basically gives the same info as "sex: male, gender: female", while it avoids potentially confusing people who don't know what we mean by "gender" here (heck, even I'm not 100% sure how exactly are we defining it)
- trans woman preop forced to pass as a man - non-spoiler sex: male, spoiler sex: trans M>F provides the same info
- trans woman postop - same as preop, with a "post-op" trait. Suggested version gives incorrect information about sex, so...
- futanari and newhalf - "custom" gender needs traits again = redundant.
- non-binary - this time "sex" provides no information and is redundant. We can just use single category for those
- genderbent - two instances of a character with different sexes and a "sex-change" trait already explain everything. Gender doesn't really add any relevant information here
- asexual angel - gender doesn't add any information
- pronouns choice - unknown sex + relevant trait cover this, gender is redundant
- crazy futa example - Stop it. Get some help. XD Jokes aside, if a futa is identifying as "male", she's not exactly non-binary. But if she identified as her own made up "gender", it would be an interesting example. Non-spoiler sex would be "male" (same as gender again), but what about spoiler sex? Maybe we should just kick "non-binary" out of the categories and make it a trait instead? Then sex can be set as female, futa, intersex, unknown - whatever fits the specific character, and trait will explain they actually identify as something different.
...
Oh wait, isn't that what we kinda have right now?

Anyway, as I showed above, we can get exactly the same information using just two fields: non-spoiler "sex" / spoiler "sex", save for the most insane non-binary futa aliens that will be a confusing mess no matter what we do.
We gain no relevant information by adding 2 more fields (non-spoiler gender / spoiler gender) but it will basically double the number of clicks needed to properly classify characters. Then we need to precisely define what we mean by "gender", because it will be confusing as heck. I mean, how are we supposed to deal with that:
A lot of people who consider themselves a part of trans community argue that trans people identify as different gender, not sex. (Admitadly, they themselves are not consistent with that terminology and almost always will start using gender and sex interchangeably at some point. Hence why we have people saying trans people should be able to change theri SEX on ther ID card or be able to tick particular SEX in a checkbox etc.)

That said, I'm all for giving people options (especially when I'm not the one working on implementing them :P). If we can implement 2 parallel systems - one simple to use with a single spoiler / non-spoiler "sex" category, and the second, advanced one with split "sex" and "gender" categories, that would be a great solution. They probably would be compatible with each other - as I showed above, "gender" almost always can be easily scrapped and converted into a single-category system, while t19156.57 showed the opposite.
#60 by Ezezin
2022-10-02 at 11:43
< report >
while t19156.57 showed the opposite.
Right, I forgot to mention how the system can interpret the simple selection using the more "advanced" "body" and gender fields, also important, as this is going to be the main search option (I would prefer to keep "sex" as its name, so non-editors wouldn't get confused):

* Body: Male | Gender: Any except female = Male
* Body: Female | Gender: Any except male = Female
* Body: Female | Gender: Male = Trans Male
* Body: Male | Gender: Female = Trans Female
* Body: Futanari | Gender: Any = Futanari
* Body: Intersex | Gender: Any = Intersex
* Body: Femboy/Trap/Otokonoko | Gender: Any = Femboy/Trap/Otokonoko
* Body: Dickgirl | gender: Any = Dickgirl
* Body: Other/Alternative | Gender: Any = Other/Alternative
* Body: Unknown | Gender: Any = UnknownLast modified on 2022-10-02 at 11:49
#61 by kumiko1
2022-10-02 at 11:58
< report >I don't think instances are a good general-purpose solution to genderbending cases, they're only appropriate when the 2 versions are both prominent in the VN and significantly different from each other. When this doesn't apply it doesn't make sense to create 2 different instances, and having the "both" option was a convenient solution.

Furthermore, it's common in genderbending VNs for the gender to also change over time, and not at the same time as the sex (eg cismale -> female body male identity -> cisfemale). Unless you want to have 3 instances for all cases, which I think we can agree is suboptimal.

It's also worth noting that a significant number of futanari characters become futanari over the course of the VN, often temporarily, simply giving everyone with the futanari tag sex:futanari is not going to work.Last modified on 2022-10-02 at 12:06
#62 by dostedt
2022-10-02 at 12:59
< report >I wanted to add on what I said in #17. Regardless of what is done, please do not remove or rename the term "Trap" in the tags or traits. It's an important distinction that is not really in-line with a lot of the stuff talked about here (or at least from what I am understanding). While I have never encountered many of these things discussed here in Japanese VNs, which is what I mostly read, I would still like a way to easily identify Trap focused VNs and Trap characters.

But like I said in #17, I really am clueless about these things since differences in sex and gender doesn't appear in my native language and these ideas are mostly foreign to me. I just am hoping that once things are decided here, I can still search for Trap characters or Trap-focused VNs without the tag or trait changing or including things that aren't Traps.
#63 by butterflygrrl
2022-10-02 at 13:13
< report >#56
I would like to mention an issue specifically with "asexual" and with some related terms. Where I come from, "asexual" is used purely for sexual orientation for people, and for reproduction method regarding plants.

I agree that 'asexual' is the wrong term for a character's Sex trait. I don't think genital aplasia is a good choice either because that's a term I've never heard before for all the time I've spent arguing stupid shit on twitter/tumblr, so I suspect it's a bit rare, thus confusing and too clinical sounding. I would stick with "No Biological Sex". It's only going to cover nonhuman characters anyway, isn't it? Robots, angels, etc?

#59
If it's just "postop", then trans women have XY chromosomes in every single cell of their bodies

Dude, don't bring chromosomes into it. Very few people know their chromosomes IRL, lots of people are not XX or XY, lots of very clearly female people including mothers have a huge amount of XY cells, it's a whole complex kettle of fish.

And it has nothing to do with anime characters, whose biology works by anime logic, with genetically pink hair and huge eyes and no body hair and the ability to get a sex change operation that completely transforms the entire body, height and hips and all, and never requires any maintenance.

Sure there's OELVNs now that probably get into how awkward being trans is, I don't know, haven't played them. In JVNs as I recall it was always "I went and had an operation and look at me now!" just bang, perfect, done, body is now completely female.
#64 by flowerno9
2022-10-02 at 14:00
< report >#56
I would like to mention an issue specifically with "asexual" and with some related terms. Where I come from, "asexual" is used purely for sexual orientation for people, and for reproduction method regarding plants.

The scientific term for someone who has literally no reproductive organs (and the implication that such would be expected for their species) is genital aplasia. Note the "genital" is essential here, since aplasia by itself simply means the incomplete formation of any particular organ or tissue normally expected for a particular species.
Genital aplasia would not be a good alternative for asexual as it can only apply to members of the species that normally has genitals. However, there are fictional creatures like Siren Head which literaly have no sex.

How about "sexless" instead?

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Note: I will adress something about simplified version for recording sex and gender, I just need a little more time.
#65 by beliar
2022-10-02 at 14:32
< report >
I'm tired and angry but I can't sleep
Congrats, now you know how I feel about dealing with Ileca :-D

@t19156.57: Not a bad suggestion, but might be hard to implement. Not sure how Yorhel feels about it.

Dude, you unilaterally decided to delete the Newhalf trait and renamed Newhalf (Not Born Male) as Dickgirl after we had extensively debated about those traits in t12537
Time showed that the decisions made in that thread were a mistake. We currently don't have any characters in the db who have changed their sex from their birth one before the game or at the start of the game. Hence the Newhalf trait was literally just a duplicate trait, as the only use for that trait was to distinguish which Transwomen characters still had their original genitals. Without it having any use it was removed. And Newhalf (Not Born Male) was too long and cumbersome of a tilte, hence was changed into much better known and acceptable Dickgirl, and this comes from someone who initially didn't like the Dickgirl title.

Newhalf is basically a synonym of shemale and you are telling me "there are a lot, and I mean 'a lot', of VNs, with characters who are born with overall female body characteristics, but only male genitalia".
That is what Dickgirl is, not Newhalf. Come on, get on with the program.

We could keep the transgender trait to be applied to post op trans.
That is not what a transgender means. Transitioning is optional. Let's not give traits the opposite meaning of reality, as you invite trouble that way.

Okay, now that's just plain wrong. This only works in total fantasy/SF, where character gets reincarnated or turns into opposite sex by magic (that you covered by separate "genderbent" option yourself). If it's just "postop", then trans women have XY chromosomes in every single cell of their bodies (well, except erythrocytes ;)). Their >sex< is very much male and it will stay that way for the foreseeable future. Same with trans men.
We literally do not care about the chromosomes. If a character has a functioning (meaning you can stick a dick into it) vagina, the character has a sex=female. Vns are fiction, and the surgery (or any other magical, medical intervention) works exactly as the author wishes. Hell, I have personally read multiple VNs, where a male character not only has a sex change procedure, but the new genitals are perfectly functional, and they can even have children.

It's also worth noting that a significant number of futanari characters become futanari over the course of the VN, often temporarily, simply giving everyone with the futanari tag sex:futanari is not going to work.
If you mean the characters with the Penis Growth trait, they shouldn't be marked as futanari, neither in their sex, nor in the traits. Only characters that are futanari throughout the game deserve them. And if the character permanently becomes a futa somewhen along the way, a separate instance is deserved in that case.

Regardless of what is done, please do not remove or rename the term "Trap" in the tags or traits.
They will be renamed, as Trap is a meme name that has been obsolete for a very long name, however it will remain as an alias for searchability.

I agree that 'asexual' is the wrong term for a character's Sex trait.
Yeah, the term has a different meaning altogether. What about simply "Sexless"? Seems not easy to confuse with something else.
P.S. Oh, flowerno9 already presented the same solution.
#66 by flowerno9
2022-10-02 at 15:02
< report >Regarding what Ileca and Ezezin were suggesting (and is also to extend related to something PabloC said): They said that if the story isn't dealing with gender issues they should be assumed to be cis OR the "sex version" assumes their gender is the same as their sex. I am strongly against this. We would end up assuming things that are not even true at all. That is like the oposite of what a database is supposed to be about. If somebody acknowledges physical reality of their sex, if other people ackowledge it too and if that is all the information we have about someone, it tells us nothing about how that person feels about gender. There is no reason to believe that they have a sense of gender and that the gender they sense they are matches their sex. And you can't know whether they live as a certain gender either so it would make no sense for "sex checklist" make assumptions about their gender.

If we are going to have a simple "sex checklist" it should either choose that gender is unknown or (if possible) leave gender section empty.

EDIT: Except in the cases of trans female and trans male, of course.

EDIT 2: Oh! And other choices seem ok too. Just the Male and Female ones are what I have a problem with.Last modified on 2022-10-02 at 15:36
#67 by Mrkew
2022-10-02 at 16:19
< report >
Queer devs... I'm sorry, but because you are a small minority we are not interested in making adjustments for you!
This was so cringe to read I was not sure you were being serious or not.
The only cringe thing is being unhappy with a perfectly viable alternative which doesn't affect everyone else.
#68 by Yorhel
2022-10-02 at 17:21
< report >
would like to mention an issue specifically with "asexual"
Oops.

Regarding Ez's solution in #57: So, essentially two views of the same underlying data? A simplified view for people who don't (want to) understand "gender" and an advanced view for the cases that can't be handled with the simple view? I don't mind that too much, but am not entirely convinced that solves much. The advanced view as implemented on the beta right now isn't any more clicks to use and with some guidelines usable by everyone. :-/

@t19156.57: Not a bad suggestion, but might be hard to implement. Not sure how Yorhel feels about it.
Make it as complex as you want, if it's a good solution I don't mind.

They said that if the story isn't dealing with gender issues they should be assumed to be cis OR the "sex version" assumes their gender is the same as their sex. I am strongly against this.
I am with you in theory, but I don't see how an optional gender is going to work out in practice: we'll end up with edit wars between people arguing that a character's gender should be unknown or that the story hints at it being the same as their sex, and this affects all characters in the database, not just the 0.1%. Compromising on assuming sex=gender feels like a more pragmatic approach to me.

The only cringe thing is being unhappy with a perfectly viable alternative which doesn't affect everyone else.
This change doesn't affect you in any way, Just ignore it and move on. You couldn't even make a case about this requiring more clicks to edit a character, since in most cases it will be the exact same amount of clicks. In the special cases it may even be fewer as this change has the potential to replace a few traits.
#69 by PabloC
2022-10-02 at 18:08
< report >
We literally do not care about the chromosomes. If a character has a functioning (meaning you can stick a dick into it) vagina, the character has a sex=female. Vns are fiction, and the surgery (or any other magical, medical intervention) works exactly as the author wishes. Hell, I have personally read multiple VNs, where a male character not only has a sex change procedure, but the new genitals are perfectly functional, and they can even have children.
Yeah, I guess you're right. I was too focused on reality there. :P

Now I get why you wanted to add "sex at birth", since for example a male character who fully changed sex would be tagged as sex: female, gender : female, which is identical to non-trans female characters. That's definitely off.
#70 by decalogueidol
2022-10-02 at 23:02
< report >no offense, but this seems like a completely pointless distinction for fictional characters, if the character is treated by the story to be a woman or man or whatever, why would you not just mark them down as that and leave things like genitals to the tags?
#71 by Ileca
2022-10-02 at 23:42
< report >^Weirdly, it makes sense to have genders at the top and leave genitals to the traits as a body property and not in a field that look like identity related (sex/gender) when we mean genitals. On the other hand, adding penis and vagina to characters sounds goofy as hell.

Time showed that the decisions made in that thread were a mistake. We currently don't have any characters in the db who have changed their sex from their birth one before the game or at the start of the game. Hence the Newhalf trait was literally just a duplicate trait, as the only use for that trait was to distinguish which Transwomen characters still had their original genitals. Without it having any use it was removed. And Newhalf (Not Born Male) was too long and cumbersome of a tilte, hence was changed into much better known and acceptable Dickgirl, and this comes from someone who initially didn't like the Dickgirl title.
Somehow you deleted the Newhalf trait and kept the Newhalf (Not Born Male) instead of, you know, merging Newhalf (Not Born Male) into Newhalf and be done with it. And now, despite you claiming "we currently don't have any characters in the db who have changed their sex from their birth one before the game or at the start of the game", the trait is about Newhalf/Shemale (Not Born Male) with the definition stating "Additionally, this character was not born as male - they got their male genitalia in some other way" which contradict what you said.

My main beef with your decision is that you made a sloppy job. You decided that splitting by sex at birth was useless but you didn't merge the two traits, kept "(Not Born Male)" and the definition's segment I quoted above, which doesn't make any sense when you say that we probably don't have such characters.
When I discovered your changes (without knowing they were changes), I thought that something was missing because only a "Newhalf (Not Born Male)" without a Newhalf trait doesn't make any sense.
As for the name change, I don't like dickgirl but I am not gonna fight you over that. If you changed your mind then so be it.
So, please transfer the few characters like Veleno to Dickgirl and rename the aliases as Newhalf and Shemale.
And let's agree that this is now a body shape trait like femboy and futanari.

That is what Dickgirl is, not Newhalf. Come on, get on with the program.
I have no idea what you are saying. Search for ニューハーフ and you will be presented with shemale porn, because "new half" means, you know, having breasts as a biological man.
I don't get what difference you are trying to make between dickgirl and newhalf/shemale. You kept these as aliases of dickgirl yourself.

That is not what a transgender means. Transitioning is optional. Let's not give traits the opposite meaning of reality, as you invite trouble that way.
Ok now you are contradicting for contradicting. Fair point about the name having to be changed but do you agree or not about the spirit? Transsexual is the same problem.
Would you be pleased with Pre-story Sex Change? It sounds like Heroine with Pre-story Virginity Loss to the Protagonist. Will some other character be marked with this trait besides post op trans?

I didn't see you saying that traits I proposed for deletion should be kept because they are easier to use. For a trait to be found you have to write it first in the box.
I take that you changed your mind?

sexless
I am ok with sexless. I used asexual because that's what I used in French way before gender was something widely known and Cambridge gave me its ok with its top definition: "without sex or sexual organs".


About Ezezin's proposal, well, I asked for "What Yorhel you will need to do is to add shortcuts to the search to find cis men, cis women, trans men and trans women in one click" so I am all for that. However, no checkbox to unhide the advanced section. Also, no autofill. Those presets/shortcuts should be treated as their own atoms. Like trans woman can't be
* Trans Female = Body: Male | Gender: Female
because post op trans women will be marked as Body: Female | Gender: Female. I proposed a little above a Pre-story Sex Change to distinguish them.
Also, a general Trans shortcut umbrella could be required and autofill is impossible here.
In fact, autofill is not possible because, Ezezin, when you say that futanari = Body: Futanari | Gender: Unknown, unknown in fact is different from gender being whatever you want. You will exclude Body: Futanari | Gender: Male if you understand what I mean. Edit: you could patch that with a Any choice.
Also, you should be able to select single|any mode. Meaning you should be able to have a mix of presets and multiple whatever manual combinations you want.

Overall, I see something like

mode:single|any
no spoiler|spoiler
invert

* [SEX] / [GENDER] add << manual selection defaulting to unknown
* Female
* Male
* Femboy/Otokonoko/Trap
* Futanari
* Transgender
* Non-binary
* Trans Woman
* Trans Man
* Newhalf/Shemale/Dickgirl
* Intersex
* Other
* Unknown

I ordered by popularity (I think, I did that quickly).
Clicking on the add button will add a line with what you filled. Those lines could be removed like you do with traits/tags and maybe even be modifiable on the fly.

Clicking on Transgender, for example, will be a shortcut for an sql query atom about all combinations matching transgender, not autofilling.

Edit: we need an Any choice or blank choice if you only want to search by sex or gender.

I don't know how to handle spoilers. I mean, do we need to have the ability to state the kind of spoiler we want? I guess... yes? I am not sure. Current sex box doesn't allow us to select which spoiler we want and assume we want to include them or not but it's only three choices.

possibly other options related to the presence of boobs, balls, dicks and vags, added as we find them.
Yorhel, you are not being clear if you are going for genitals or body shape. I guess it's the point of saying "possibly" but it's hard to work with that.Last modified on 2022-10-03 at 02:04
#72 by caffeinecrisis
2022-10-03 at 01:46
< report >Soooo I kind of feel like this is getting really, REALLY into the weeds in definitions in ways that might not actually be beneficial?

Proposal: Relabel the current "sex" marker to "gender" and make "sex" an optional secondary field. I do not think a character's sex, if they are transgender or nonbinary, should be assumed in any capacity whether that's their assigned sex at birth or if they've had sex reassignment surgery. Many VNs will not specify, and there is not necessarily a way to figure it out.

However, I would not mark it "unknown" by default since to me there's a difference between "this information is unknown and that itself is relevant" and "this does not come up in the story in enough detail to determine because it does not matter."

For VNs with no sexually explicit content, whatever the physical sex of a character may be is quite likely to be irrelevant. For VNs that ARE sexually explicit, the "sex" tag can be added as needed along with relevant body traits. I think it's fine if characters are tagged by their gender first and foremost, with the assumption that the character is cis unless otherwise stated (ie being tagged transgender or nonbinary). Crossdressing characters I think can be handled however they're being handled now.

Regarding #68:
I am with you in theory, but I don't see how an optional gender is going to work out in practice: we'll end up with edit wars between people arguing that a character's gender should be unknown or that the story hints at it being the same as their sex, and this affects all characters in the database, not just the 0.1%.
In my opinion, if it's not explicitly stated or shown then it shouldn't go in the database, regardless of what a narrative may or may not seem to imply. For example, there's a character in Sekai Metsubou Kyouyuu Gensou "Mamiya" Series who crossdresses. He's referred to as he/him most of the time (and she/her when relevant), and the only concrete thing we know is that he has feelings of SOME sort concerning his gender and presentation, but the game does not specify and frankly I don't think the character knows how he feels either. Personally, I interpret him as being a trans woman. Two of my friends interpret him as being nonbinary in some capacity, and someone else said the Japanese version of the game was more suggestive of him being otokonoko. I might think that it's REALLY VERY STRONGLY IMPLIED that he's a trans woman, but I would not mark him as such without the game or author stating such.

So for gender options:
* Male
* Female
* Nonbinary
* Other
* Unknown -- Don't actually know if this would be used?

And optional sex options:
* Male
* Female
* Futanari*
* Sexless
* Other
* Unknown

*Futanari and adjacent fetishes are very much not my wheelhouse, so I didn't put 'dickgirl' on this list since I would think it's the same as futanari? Would not be surprised if I'm wrong in some granular way though.

Beyond that, I don't think "intersex" is particularly useful as an option for a character's sex since "intersex" can cover soooo many different conditions, some visible, some invisible.

Additionally, I could see a scenario where a futanari is described as intersex in the narrative due to ignorance or misunderstanding. People after all do still misunderstand intersex conditions as being a hermaphrodite (which futanari could be considered I think?).

I do agree with leaving things like genitalia to traits, and while it is a little weird to think about adding things like "vagina" and "penis" as traits but that might make the most sense for VNs where it is worth noting, such as sexually explicit VNs featuring transgender characters where the game does specify in some way.

Oh the irony of saying we're getting too into the weeds and then having to get deep into the weeds to explain why we do not need to get into the weeds.
#73 by diabloryuzaki
2022-10-03 at 01:53
< report >#1
I think we need it when a side character have sexual traits but he is a male with no trait to show that he is female before or related vn for this character is nukige where any male side character have sexual traits

It is so confusing when it is happened where I don't know did the mc is dual sword or normal especially when it is just generic mc from normal moegeLast modified on 2022-10-03 at 01:54
#74 by flowerno9
2022-10-03 at 10:26
< report >#68
I am with you in theory, but I don't see how an optional gender is going to work out in practice: we'll end up with edit wars between people arguing that a character's gender should be unknown or that the story hints at it being the same as their sex, and this affects all characters in the database, not just the 0.1%. Compromising on assuming sex=gender feels like a more pragmatic approach to me.
I don't see it as more pragmatic. Why should a compromise say that somebody has a gender rather than it is unknown? The way I see it, it is not any more likely for someone to be cisgender rather than agender.
My suggestion is better because by leaving it empty or "unknown" we wouldn't be making any statements about their gender. It wouldn't say they are a certain gender nor it would say they are not a certain gender. And like I said before, the purpose of the database is to collect facts and putting it empty (or "unknown" or "N/A") would be closer to factual truth than assuming they are cisgender.

However, I would not mark it "unknown" by default since to me there's a difference between "this information is unknown and that itself is relevant" and "this does not come up in the story in enough detail to determine because it does not matter."
To me whether it says "unknown" or is left empty doesn't make a difference. If a story never mention someone's gender because it is irrelevant to the story then that gender is "unknown" to the player. And if the story is about trying to discover somebody's gender and eventually leaves it a mystery, then that gender is also "unknown" to the player. That said, I do think it would be looking neater if an empty option is offered (or just "-").
Thought personally, I don't really care whether it says "unknown" or empty. If you want one over the other it is fine by me.
Proposal: Relabel the current "sex" marker to "gender" and make "sex" an optional secondary field.
For VNs with no sexually explicit content, whatever the physical sex of a character may be is quite likely to be irrelevant. For VNs that ARE sexually explicit, the "sex" tag can be added as needed along with relevant body traits. I think it's fine if characters are tagged by their gender first and foremost, with the assumption that the character is cis unless otherwise stated (ie being tagged transgender or nonbinary).
One could be a non-binary who lives as a gender that matches their sex. And you wouldn't know that because they have no reason to say what their gender identity is (unless we define gender in a way that doesn't require a gender identity). Just like I told Yorhel, if there is a character whose gender is not stated, it would be better to leave them as empty rather than assume they are cis.

Also, after a night of sleep, I realized something regarding #57. I see a problem in it. I will explain later what I mean...Last modified on 2022-10-03 at 10:27
#75 by Yorhel
2022-10-03 at 11:05
< report >I'm putting this change on hold for now. This thread has been extremely useful in gathering feedback and I have a much better idea now what a solution looks like, so I'll be slowly (and more privately) working this out in detail, making sure that I fully understand the arguments and concerns made on the different proposals before moving on. If you want to keep sending ideas and feedback, feel free to contact me at contact@vndb.org. Even if I don't honor all requests, I do try to take everyone's feedback into account.

As for a general idea on the direction I plan to go into, here's a quick outline of the two extreme positions (to the point of being caricatures, please bear with me) I've seen so far:
- On the one side, people who refuse to believe that "gender" and "sex" may refer to different things.
- On the other side, people who believe gender is the only thing that matters and mentioning someone's sex is (usually) offensive.
I will probably make an enemy out of both extremes and will instead cater towards the middle ground: people with an open mind who want to learn about visual novels.

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