Avoidable/unavoidable Tags

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#1 by Ezezin
2022-10-26 at 15:32
< report >So, I'm trying to revamp the avoidable and unavoidable tags with a new tag tree (you can see the work in progress at the beta), but I'm having some problems.

You said that
it's simply impossible to define what a Route is
so my first instinct was to get rid of everything that's route related and make traits for that later. The problem is:

- If I make those tags too generic, so they can inform about the whole VN instead of individual routes, we won't have what kei-tri requested:
For me, it's enough if one of the heroines dies in good ending of her own route.

- If I make those tags more specific, so they can inform about heroines or endings, we won't solve anything, since there will be entries using more than one of those tags. And it seems kei-tri and I both agree on this:
I can't tell you enough how confusing and unhelpful would be to see both Avoidable Death of Heroine and Unavoidable Death of Heroine tags in the same vn and for same heroine

Whenever I changed something, I found a new VN with a different kind of death. And when I changed the description to include that situation, I found a second VN with a different death that would break the tag tree (and sometimes this happened with changing a single word in the description).
So, when I finally found a description that matches both VN, School Days happened, and then Kyokukou Senki Mistletear happened, and then I found Gimai - Hitomi, and let's not forget about STEINS;GATE, and then... Wait, what's that? A VN with a bittersweet death ending which it's not entirely good or entirely bad? Well, at least there isn't a VN with only bad endings where characters can die... ohh crap.

After thinking and changing stuff for three days I reached the conclusion that it is impossible to put every single combination of avoidable/unavoidable death/rape in a single tag that would make all users happy, make the tags easy to use and understand while avoiding using routes.

The current tags are a mess and they seriously need a revamp. So I suggest three changes:

- Make the tags very, very broad on their usage with the caveat that no one will be able to tell if characters deaths occurs on their routes/endings/commons/whatever (we loose most of the specifics, like True End’s Death Of Protagonist). The good side of this is that these tags will be very easy to use and we can treat them as counterparts (it's avoidable or unavoidable, not both).

- Make the tags very, very specific, with many child tags for a lot of situations. The caveats:
* The high amount of these kind of tags that would need to be applied correctly.
* We might need to find a definition for routes, since most of these tags will be based around that (or at the very least, restrict their use around endings).
* Users might get confused by so many tags, that some of them may go underused or missused.

The good side of this is that users can propose new specific tags and it shouldn't be a problem to add them if needed. Also, since we will have so many tags, every user can search for their own niche. Finally, like the previous point, we can treat them as counterparts (it's avoidable or unavoidable, not both).

-The middle ground (the solution I decided to work just recently). We have some broad tags and some specific tags but very few of them are based around endings or routes. We won't have the specific usage that kei-tri wants but we might have some other ones if they can be easily defined. Since this is a new idea I didn't thought about the pros and cons of this yet. This will require the most amount of work, since I'm going to recycle the old names but rewrite all tags descriptions without making them too hard to use for users who don't read tags.
#2 by beliar
2022-10-26 at 16:27
< report >Thanks for taking yet another hard task on our behalf. There is a reason why you are our mascot :-).

First of all, I will ay that when it comes to tags I am usually more broad minded, and like them to be more generic, while leaving specifics to the traits. It seems like the first solution would be fitting for me, but I do see problems with going overgeneric in this direction, to the point the tags could become useless.

However, I like the other extreme even less. When we have lots of specific child tags, the users need to be very anal in the application of tags, which we know they are not, and thus they end up underused, which hurts searchability, and eventually makes the whole tag useless.

It's hard to find definitions of routes, because there are so many ways to present VNs, and many of those presentations could impact the definition. Once I have tried to analyze a definition someone tried to create, and found like a dozen holes that couldn't be plugged without bloating the definition to be a page long article. It's like you looking through various instances of death, but immensely worse.

And third, users will get confused, and either apply tags wrong or don't apply them at all.

I would love to have a middle ground between those two extremes, so if you could propose something usable on that front, I will love you gently for a long time :-P
#3 by skorpiondeath
2022-11-01 at 00:09
< report >I'll throw my ideas about this all process. As always it's almost impossible to please everyone, specifically you don't need to please kei-tr. He is just one person as you can see not many people care about this subject.
Like beliar said we usually go more specific with traits but I don't think it's a good idea to go take in account routes because you will end with a clusterfuck of traits applied to characters. That makes a character unreadable, will make application hard basically it's pure shit.
The main problem here is that those trait "avoidable and unavoidable" are just stupid traits. They are because everyone want to get information on what happens beforehand and obviously not just in the VN perspective but in routes too... and what about reading the VN and call it a day? That degree of precision is just fuel for desperation and OCD. It's messy because at least to support this degree of specificity you need a DB that supports that table-wise.
and currently the DB doesnt' support this, wich makes the DB a clusterfuck of I don't get what happens to characters...
What I mean is that a VN should need a separate table to add "Character routes" at that point linking traits is not done on the character page but directly to his character route. That's the only rational way to make traits understandable.

Let's add some stupid example to Footjob (always this one for me). "Whine mode on": I don't like footjob trait because I'm skorpion and I say it's too broad so I want you mods to help me and let me know if it's a footjob or a solejob or a toejob, so please mod add more traits because I dislike solejob and if I'm unable to make a distinction between them my life is ruined. Now the mods start the crusade and add the solejob and toejob traits...yeeeeyyyy
But wait! During the VN my Character called Josephine does a footjob during evil route but a solejob during good route, shit now my character got tagged with both and it sucks as hell since I don't wanna read the VN or my heart will stop function if I see the solejob... shit mod help me please do something stop the server I wanna go down.
Obviosly you need to add more degree of information to the traits footjob-during-common-route, avoidable footjob, unavoidable footjob, footjob single feet only during common good end. Shit it all goes down to a more clusterfuck of useless traits.
If you had character routes in the DB you will have instead a Jospehine character with 2 separate tabs for "good route" and "evil route". At that point you could add footjob to evil route and solejob to good route. Yeeyyy skorpion super happy he now knows that there is a route that he is not gonna play because it has a solejob. Wanna enrich the system now you add "avoidable" flag to every trait present instead of creating thousends of duplicates of the same traits. If a traits its unavoidable than it colored blue as today if it's avoidable it's colored green.
At the same time this will benefit the system since the "only" trait dies on the spot. For example you got chracter route A with rape avoidable, route B with rape unavoidable and route C with no rape at all then you know rape is avoidable unless you play route B. Second example you got chracter route A with rape avoidable, route B with rape avoidable and route C with no rape at all then you know rape is all avoidable during the game with no need for a "avoidable rape only".
Current DB does not support this kind of traits, my opinion is that they should just go to the trash bin or definitly address the problem in an elegant way.

Next on the channel skorpion complains that current system doesn't inform you to which character your character did a footjob to... so I basically ended see a footjob of Josephine but she engaged it on the dog character instead of the male one. Bad josephine! Why not introducing a directional system to traits.
Josephin, Sparky the dog and Rupert the prince go on a journey and Josephine ends footjobbing Sparky I wanna tag "Josephine -> Engages in Footjob (Sparky)" achieving this by clicking a link during trait insertion that let me cycle through character instances and link sparky as the receiver.

Really guys my 2 cents is to keep it simple and read a fucking VN.... or implement the DB in a way that lets you make things elengantly. Trying to compensate with a clusterfuck of traits a wrong DB implementation is just a bad practice overall.Last modified on 2022-11-01 at 00:25
#4 by kei-tr
2022-11-02 at 13:35
< report >
If I make those tags more specific, so they can inform about heroines or endings, we won't solve anything, since there will be entries using more than one of those tags.

I am not sure what exactly you mean but isn't the problem you are trying to apply these tags to heroines, not the vn itself? Simple example: One route, two heroines. One heroine's death is unavoidable and other one's death is avoidable. Add the tag vn itself. Description of Unavoidable Death of Heroine already says "...at least one of the heroines dies", no need to treat them like traits by adding both Unavoidable Death of Heroine and Avoidable Death of Heroine and overcomplicating implementing a detailed system.

Although I prefer a detailed approach I understand it has downsides and how hard to come up with a system and I am not against a generic approach. First of all my main complaint was about three problematic tags (Avoidable Death of Heroine/Hero, Avoidable Rape and Avoidable Netorare), how they are unhelpful and even misleading. So, I suggested that they should be inapplicable or better, deleted and leave only "unavoidables" and "only avoidables". When I saw beliar rather reluctant about this I came up with an alternative solution, which was Warfoki's definition originally. This solution gave Avoidable Death of Heroine and others some content only they can define (though Avoidable Netorare seems to be unsalvagable and has to be purged regardless). I didn't see any problems with these definitions but it seems talking about routes in definitions is undesired. Thus I return my initial suggestion (unlike "we better not talk about routes in definitions because it's hard to define what a route is" reasoning I didn't see any reasoning denying my initial suggestion); if what Ezezin working on is too hard to implement, simply deleting three "avoidables" and maybe polishing definitions of other tags without changing their meaning too much, to be consistent with each other, seems good enough to me.

He is just one person as you can see not many people care about this subject.

Only one person talking about a problem doesn't mean only that person cares about that problem. There could be lots of reasons why people don't say anything. They could be too lazy to write something here, they could be not confident about convincing people to do something (and I wouldn't blame them because its one of the hardest things to do), they could be a newbie suffering from these problems yet they don't realize where the problem lies exactly or maybe simply they didn't saw discussion etc.
#5 by Ezezin
2022-11-02 at 21:08
< report >Kei-tr, the problem aren't the avoidable tags, those are pretty easy to fix. The problem is the unavoidable tag: it's not properly defined. I would even say that the current avoidable tags are even more descriptive and consistent than the unavoidable ones, which makes the latter redundant. You believe that the avoidable tags are confusing and redundant, but half of the unavoidable tags don't even have a definition that makes them different, and the other half have many different descriptions on them. What if I say delete the unavoidable tags instead?
You can't have this tag without trying to define what is a route or without applying to characters; although it's technically possible, you would say the tag will become useless.

So what I decided instead was searching for more examples of avoidable/unavoidable scenes and see how other people classified them. So far, from what I can see, there isn't a single consistent definition of what the community thinks is avoidable or not. Yes, the "heroine who dies in her own route" is the most common one, but not the only one. Sometimes those same people change what they consider avoidable or not based on genres and personal feelings.
This tells me there isn't a proper codified rule on what is avoidable and what not, always changing based on individual works instead of a single definition that can be applied to everything.

Believe me when I say I'm trying my hardest to come with a definition that could work for everything while keeping "heroine dies on their own route" without having so many tags for every situation and making the avoidable and unavoidable tags counterparts of each other, but it is hard.
Of course, the other approach is deleting everything and have only generic tags, like what I said in t3617.2952: only avoidable stuff, some avoidable stuff, only unavoidable stuff but without the hero/heroine/protagonist parts; also no routes and no endings.

Edit: You can see some definitions in link that I've found here, in VNDB, and over the internet.
Edit 2: I love this explanation (t3617.2225):
If you refuse to consider the true ending as avoiding the heroine's death, you are weighing the routes and every survival of heroine (and maybe even deaths) must be judged according to that criteria.
Did the heroine die in a route focusing on her + Did the heroine survive in a route focusing on her = avoidable death.
Did the heroine die in every route focusing on her (+ she survives in routes not focusing on her) = unavoidable death.
Did the heroine die in a route not focusing on her = no death of heroine tag

You also have to remember that not all VN are lazy charage, where heroines don't have the focus all the time (like with a dedicated route, or just a mini-route) but are important. But then, the heroine of the true ending is important but has no focus either... Then you start judging if not the whole route but the sequence was heroine-focused, but also if the sequences where she survives are heroines-focused enough to be be deemed tag-worthy. -__-
Last modified on 2022-11-03 at 02:18
#6 by skorpiondeath
2022-11-02 at 22:42
< report >
Only one person talking about a problem doesn't mean only that person cares about that problem. There could be lots of reasons why people don't say anything...etc
No need to explain this, it was a direct provocation from my side. Just in case other users are asking themselves why I'm not active anymore lets say people that counts in VNDB already know and I have proposed to retire from my position multiple times. I'm just writing this because I dont' wanna be seen as the uncaring or unprofessional type of guy, and I tried to help beliar and Yorhel at the best of my abilities lately and I'm truly greateful for the occasion I have been given. They truly deserve all the love and esteem possible. But and it's a BIG BUT I have become dad 2 years ago and that deeply limited my free time in general expecially the one I was spending here on VNDB and my condition will just get worse soon since on February I'm gonna face a second earthquake. If I was half-dead basically I will surely end completely dead after that, so don't hope for any help from my side on years to come.
End of drama, lets go to some healthy discussion.

Although I prefer a detailed approach I understand it has downsides and how hard to come up with a system and I am not against a generic approach
First I wanna say I'm talking about traits here, I didn't think about tags while I wrote my previous post.
I'm not against a detailed approch either but only if its not messy. This means take a step back and analyze our currents DB tables. You need to introduce a new table to link to characters called character_routes. the relation between characters and character_routes is 1 to n. Every character can have multiple (n) routes defined. That said you can add traits to character routes instead of characters generically. As today if a character has 3 route (A,B,C) and route A and B got unavoidable rape but the third route C has no rape at all it basically means that character should be tagged as avoidable rape. The same situation but with route A avoidable rape, route B avoidable rape and route C no rape at all you need to tag it today as only avoidable rape because you can skip rape in every route of the character.
As you can see a system with routes defined implicitly, elengantly and more importantly passively define what is "avoidable" or "avoidable only" by just looking at routes + simple traits.
That's the reason I wanted a flag/check true or false on every (or most) trait existent in the DB to tell if a trait it's avoidable or not. Avoidable or not avoidable it's not something related to the trait itself but it's just a side information if that particularar trait can be avoided or not. That's why adding a clusterfuck of avoidable traits is a mess. A trait is unavoidable unless someone flags it as avoidable, it should be a status of the trait not something in the name or description.
Let say we want to enforce also the unavoidable status of trait because normal users just tag directly without caring about this, than we can transform the check true/false into a selection of 3 elements:
- unknown (default) - [color: blue]
- avoidable - [color: green]
- unavoidable - [color: red]

This will shut the avoidable, unavoidable proposal in the queue since today you wanna know if rape, death, murder, sex with monster is avoidable but maybe tommorow it could be incest, inbreeding, scat, skullfucking or even plain french kiss (mayble people hate tongues).
Graphically you can show in green avoidable traits and in red unavoidable ones that makes it easy to read user-wise and easy to mantain moderator-wise.
So going back to our previous examples:
--- route A and B got unavoidable rape but the third route C has no rape at all you'll see
A -> rape (red)
B -> rape (red)
C -> no rape amongst traits
You can visually determine rape is avoidable since you can play route C and call it a day.

--- route A avoidable rape, route B avoidable rape and route C no rape at all
A -> rape (green)
B -> rape (green)
C -> no rape amongst traits
You can visually determine rape is only avoidable since you can play route A or B and avoid the rape scene or play route C since there is no rape at all.Last modified on 2022-11-02 at 22:51
#7 by kei-tr
2022-11-03 at 00:14
< report >@Ezezin I think we see real problems in different places because we get something different by reading current descriptions, which shows there is really a problem; most people should get the same meaning after reading a definition. This is what I get from these tags: You can use Avoidable Death of Heroine as long as there is one death scene for a heroine and that death scene can be avoided. But this also means you can use this tag if there are 5 heroines and 4 of their deaths are unavoidable and only one of their deaths are avoidable (this content is already covered by Unavoidable Death of Heroine). Or you can also use this tag when the deaths of all 5 heroines are avoidable (and this content is covered by Only Avoidable Death of Heroine). See? Any content Avoidable Death of Heroine may indicate is already covered by the other two tags. And Unavoidable Death of Heroine at least says "at least one heroine dies in this vn and its unavoidable" but Avoidable Death of Heroine says "one heroine dies in this vn and it's avoidable but there could be other heroine death's in this vn and they may or may not be avoidable, no promises for anything". That's why I think "avoidables" are much worse than "unavoidables". And this is how I understand current definitions. I hope I managed to convey my thoughts properly.

I don't know what exactly you are going through right now but don't you think you are bending yourself too much to add everyone's definitions? It's probably impossible to add definitions of every single person to descriptions of tags and it might lead you to give up in frustration. I am not saying you should make up your own definitions without looking anywhere but is it not good enough to use most common definition(s)? Let the people bend a little to the database and (new) definitions in tags as well (though there are so much different interpretations probably because current tags are ambiguous as hell).

As today if a character has 3 route (A,B,C) and route A and B got unavoidable rape but the third route C has no rape at all it basically means that character should be tagged as avoidable rape. The same situation but with route A avoidable rape, route B avoidable rape and route C no rape at all you need to tag it today as only avoidable rape because you can skip rape in every route of the character.

I understand from this (and the explanation at t3617.2225 is quite similar) unlike one route per heroine vns if heroines have multiple routes then "avoidable" tags have potential to be useful (skorpion's proposition solves this because he adds info to the character routes themselves but the current tag/trait system can't handle usage of multiple of these tags/traits for same vn/character, using both tags will only lead to confusion). BUT! You can get none of these explanations and descriptions from current definitions. These should be added to tag/trait descriptions clearly and concisely as possible. Or you could do what skorpion says (dunno how hard it will be to implement). The most important thing is dealing with ambiguousness.Last modified on 2022-11-03 at 00:43
#8 by Ezezin
2022-11-03 at 11:04
< report >
and this content is covered by Only Avoidable Death of Heroine). See?
Yes, I see it's working as intended. That's the idea of child tags in the first place.

(this content is already covered by Unavoidable Death of Heroine) [...] "at least one heroine dies in this vn and its unavoidable"
So I was right, the problem is defining "unavoidable" in the context of Visual Novels and make it useful for many entries.

I think I found a proper solution to this problem, and for the first time, I feel this can work.
#9 by beliar
2022-11-03 at 16:55
< report >After reading all this, now I have become convinced that the best course moving forward is to make the tags as generic as possible, while creating more specific traits for this purpose. It's impossible to encompass all the necessary details through the tags, without either making a shitload of very specific tags, or creating a system where tags tie to routes, and I'll approve anything route related in the tags over my cold dead body.

So, my proposal is this. Let's take Death of Heroine as an example:

All Avoidable Death Scenes of Heroines: This visual novel allows you to reach all of the proper endings for all of the heroines, without experiencing the "death of a heroine" scenario. The only death scenes are reserved for premature bad endings, which you are not forced to read to access the other endings.

All Unavoidable Death Scenes of Heroines: This visual novel has one or multiple "death of a heroine" scenarios, none of which can be avoided. This means, that in order to reach all of the proper endings for all of the heroines, you will inevitably see at least one or more of the heroines die without an ability to change their fate.

Still not sure if we need this, but here you are:

Some Avoidable Death Scenes of Heroines: This visual novel has multiple "death of a heroine" scenarios, some of which can be avoided. This means, that in order to reach all of the proper endings for all of the heroines, you will inevitably see at least one of the heroines die without an ability to change her fate, however other death scenes are reserved for premature bad endings, which you are not forced to read to access the other endings.

---

And then we create appropriate traits. We currently have Subject of > Avoidable Death, Subject of > Joke Ending Death, Subject of > Bad End Death, 699. Let's tinker with that.

Completely Unavoidable Death (new trait): This character always dies in all of the possible routes. Their death cannot be avoided. Use the generic Subject of > Death trait instead, if the character is later resurrected.
*
Completely Avoidable Death (This is the renamed Subject of > Bad End Death trait, with Bad End Death Only becoming an alias): You can see every proper ending of the game without experiencing this character's death. Their only death scenes are reserved for premature bad endings, which you are not forced to read to access the other endings.

Child trait:
Subject of > Joke Ending Death: I think this trait can be added as a child verbatim without any changes.
*
Partially Avoidable Deaths: This character is alive in at least some of the endings, but at least one ending will result in this character's death, without any ability to avoid it.

Child trait:
Unavoidable Other Route Death (Subject of > Other Route Death with a clarified description): You can see every proper ending for this character route without experiencing this character's death. Their only death scenes therein may bereserved for premature bad endings, which you are not forced to read to access the other endings.

However, the character inevitably dies on a route that is not their own.
*
And then we make Subject of > Avoidable Death unapplicable and obsolete.

Profit.

P.S. Of course the structure of the Netorare tag would have to be completely different, as both those that like it and those that hate it look for a completely different thing with NTR. For example, none of the partially avoidable stuff makes any sense with NTR, so that is straight out.
#10 by kei-tr
2022-11-04 at 01:49
< report >You should have at least waited for what kind of solution Ezezin going to come up with before deciding what to do. Dude's all hard work going to waste. :(

Ok, I am going to give my opinion about your proposal:

All Avoidable Death Scenes of Heroines: This one is fundamentally same as Only Avoidable Death of Heroine; you just gave a more detailed description. This one was always the easiest to define and most helpful one. No problems with this one.

All Unavoidable Death Scenes of Heroines: Need to clarify if all heroines die in at least one route, every heroine dies in their own route or all "heroine death scenes" in vn exits are unavoidable. I assume the intention is last one here. In that case, if there is only one "heroine death scene" and it doesn't even happen in her own route then this tag still would be applicable. Am I right? Also, you described tag in a way if heroines are resurrected or time travel is used to save them tag shouldn't be used. But I think tag still should be used because the important thing here is if an event of "death" occurs or not. What happens after "death" is irrelevant to the tag (I think most people still use Unavoidable Death of Heroine even if the heroine died saved by resurrection or time travel later). You can also think about rape here. In the case of the heroine is raped by someone, even if the protag time travels to the past to prevent this and saves her it doesn't change the fact we/readers saw a rape h-scene while reading and still should be tagged with "All Unavoidable Rape Scenes of Heroines" or something.

Some Avoidable Death Scenes of Heroines: This one is almost same as current Unavoidable Death of Heroine. The only difference is if there is an instance of all "heroine death scenes" in vn is unavoidable then that vn doesn't belong here. Also, same as above, tag still should be used even if they are saved by something like resurrection later.

This is not a big problem for me but is there a need to change the names of the tags?
"All Avoidable Death Scenes of Heroines" should remain as "Only Avoidable Death of Heroine"
"All Unavoidable Death Scenes of Heroines" should be "Only Unavoidable Death of Heroine"
"Some Avoidable Death Scenes of Heroines" should be "Unavoidable Death of Heroine"
Why not use names people are already used to?

I don't think it's a bad proposition overall (though anything better than the current state of tags) as long as fixes are applied and clarifications are made. But if I get what "All Unavoidable Death Scenes of Heroines" means correctly, then I don't think it's going to see too much use. Isn't cases of "all heroine death scenes happen in that vn are unavoidable" really rare? Correct me if I am wrong but most of the time when there are "unavoidable heroine deaths" in a vn, there are also some "avoidable heroine deaths" as well, right? If we do as you proposed we can't use it frequently like Unavoidable Death of Heroine, which only indicates there is "at least one unavoidable heroine death in vn". In other words, tag can't be used frequently like Unavoidable Death of Heroine, because all "heroine death scenes" needs to be unavoidable to use it and we can't inform people by tagging vn when there is only one "unavoidable heroine death scene" and some "avoidable heroine death scenes". That's why I prefer getting rid of Avoidable Death of Heroine and clarifying the meaning of Unavoidable Death of Heroine instead.


Completely Unavoidable Death: Clear and definitive description. No problem here. But I think this should be used even if a character is resurrected later as well. Same as its tag counterpart, the important thing here is if an event of "death" occurs or not. What happens after "death" is irrelevant to the trait. Also, there might be other things that can undo a death other than resurrection, like time travel.

Completely Avoidable Death: Clear and definitive description. No problem here as well.

Partially Avoidable Deaths: I reworded your definition without changing its meaning, have a look. "This character will die at least one of the routes and this is unavoidable. Use "Completely Unavoidable Death" if character dies on every route." Use "end" if usage of "route" is undesired (though you used "route" in some of your definitions as well). But I feel if we use "end" instead of "route", some people only going to count deaths occurring last moment of a story. Also again, same as above, trait still should be used even if they are saved by something like resurrection later.

Unavoidable Other Route Death: Clear and definitive description. I believe this one is going to be used by only heroines/heroes since you have to own a route to apply this. Minor rewording to the last sentence "However, the character dies at least one other routes that is not their own and this is unavoidable." And again, trait still should be used even if they are saved by something like resurrection later.

I didn't exactly understand which traits are going to be child traits and which ones are parent traits but you handled traits much better IMO. Though I have the same minor complaint I had in tags: Why change the names of traits?
"Completely Unavoidable Death" should be "Only Unavoidable Death"
"Completely Avoidable Death" should be "Only Avoidable Death"
"Partially Avoidable Deaths" should be "Unavoidable Death"


Of course the structure of the Netorare tag would have to be completely different, as both those that like it and those that hate it look for a completely different thing with NTR. For example, none of the partially avoidable stuff makes any sense with NTR, so that is straight out.

Does this mean you are going to delete Avoidable Netorare?Last modified on 2022-11-04 at 02:30
#11 by Ezezin
2022-11-04 at 10:48
< report >Actually I don't mind it at all, since I was thinking more or less the same thing as Beliar. Also, nothing is going to be a waste, since I learned a lot.
My proposal was going to be:

Avoidable [Scene]: There is at least one ending that can be reached without being forced in seeing this content.

Only avoidable [Scene]: All [scenes] are avoidable by the player in some way. This means you can see all [character] best endings without seeing any [scene].

Unavoidable [scene]: There is at least one [scene] that must be seen before reaching the best possible ending or true ending. Edit: enforced playing order, kinetic novels and VNs which you must see any scene to unlock the good ending also go here.

Only Unavoidable [Scene]: There is at least one [scene] in which a [character] gets [scene] and this event can't be avoided by the player in any way. This means before/during all endings, there is at least one [scene] that must be seen.

Avoidable and unavoidable are not mutually exclusive to each other (both of them can be used in a single entry), way more easy than creating a "some avoidable [scene]" and clutter the tags even more.Last modified on 2022-11-04 at 11:54
#12 by kei-tr
2022-11-04 at 14:54
< report >Avoidable [Scene]: This isn't any different from current Avoidable Death of Heroine (and other "avoidable(s)) at all which was my whole reason for starting this thing. I said this above and I am saying again: "Avoidable Death of Heroine says "one heroine dies in this vn and it's avoidable but there could be other heroine death's in this vn and they may or may not be avoidable, no promises for anything"." Ambiguous, uninformative, unhelpful, misleading etc. If this going to be created no matter what, it should be inapplicable.

Unavoidable [scene]: I think you probably would want to add "for a [character]" to the end of this definition. It should be "There is at least one [scene] that must be seen before reaching the best possible ending or true ending for a [character]." Also, vns with "enforced playing order" or "unlockable routes" are ok, but I think kinetic novels should belong to "Only Unavoidable".

Only Unavoidable [Scene]: Hmm, this one is interesting (now I looked it again maybe beliar's "All Unavoidable Death Scenes of Heroines" intended to be same as this one?). So, a [scene] involving at least one character either happens in every route or happens in common route/before branching point or vn is a kinetic novel.

Avoidable and unavoidable are not mutually exclusive to each other (both of them can be used in a single entry)

You are still trying to tag characters, not the vn itself. The current tag system doesn't support this. I thought we agreed on if both Unavoidable Death of Heroine and Avoidable Death of Heroine used in the same vn that would be really confusing; you mentioned this even in your first post here. Also, I think this is one of the things skorpion meant by when he said "it shouldn't be messy". I think they should be mutually exclusive.Last modified on 2022-11-04 at 15:15
#13 by Ezezin
2022-11-04 at 15:04
< report >About traits, here is my proposal about death. Also avoidable murder and avoidable manslaughter, but as I said in those edits, I have no problem if they are deleted (are they really necessary to begin with?).
There is also avoidable suicide but I think this trait is not needed if Engages in > Suicide is used with any of the new avoidable/unavoidable traits.
#14 by Ezezin
2022-11-04 at 15:33
< report >
This isn't any different from current Avoidable Death of Heroine
I think you probably would want to add "for a [character]"
That's intended. I didn't add [character] because I was not planning on having those tags for hero/heroine/protagonist.
#15 by beliar
2022-11-04 at 16:29
< report >
You should have at least waited for what kind of solution Ezezin going to come up with before deciding what to do. Dude's all hard work going to waste. :(
Why "going to waste"? It's not like my proposal somehow invalidates EZZ efforts.

I assume the intention is last one here.
Yes, the intention is the last one.

In that case, if there is only one "heroine death scene" and it doesn't even happen in her own route then this tag still would be applicable.
I actually failed to properly consider that, but now that you have asked that, I do think the tag would apply. Can be debated though.

But I think tag still should be used because the important thing here is if an event of "death" occurs or not.
Well, that can be debated. I actually considered the trait more than the tag when it came to resurrection, but I probably agree with your reasoning. The event happens, even if it is reverted, so the tag would still apply.

Why not use names people are already used to?
I think my names better express the intent of the tags, as people rarely read the descriptions, and the current names are really unhelpful. I would have no idea how to use the current tags, if I didn't read the descriptions.

Isn't cases of "all heroine death scenes happen in that vn are unavoidable" really rare?
Not really sure which scenarios are more frequent. I'd guess that "Some Avoidable Death Scenes of Heroines" scenario would be the most frequent.

I reworded your definition without changing its meaning, have a look.
No particular objections. That said, I don't like to abuse the word "route", because many many games don't have multiple character routes as you would imagine them. The routes are either not tied to a specific character, or the Vn has a ladder structure, where there is only a single route, but based on your choices you can experience many different endings that branch from the main stem of the route at various points. However, I also dislike the name "end", as my misgivings are the same as yours.

Why change the names of traits?
Because just like with the tags, I think the new names better reveal the exact nature of the trait.

Does this mean you are going to delete Avoidable Netorare?
Yes, eventually.

Only avoidable [Scene]: All [scenes] are avoidable by the player in some way. This means you can see all [character] best endings without seeing any [scene].
I actually think it's useless to split the hairs regarding the best/not-so good endings. Only proper endings and premature bad endings should be taken into account when creating the tags. Not the least of the reasons, because there are VNs, where the character dies in the true/best ending, but survives in the normal ending. So I think that when we talk about "only avoidable...", that content should not figure in any of the endings, except for the bad ends.

Unavoidable [scene]: There is at least one [scene] that must be seen before reaching the best possible ending or true ending.
Again, my problem with your proposal, is the use of best/true, while in my mind it should be "any" ending, except for the bad ends.

way more easy than creating a "some avoidable [scene]" and clutter the tags even more.
There is only a semantic difference between yours "Unavoidable [scene]" and a theoretical "some avoidable [scene]". Either of those tags would be fine, but not both of them. :-)

Avoidable [Scene]: This isn't any different from current Avoidable Death of Heroine (and other "avoidable(s)) at all which was my whole reason for starting this thing. I said this above and I am saying again: "Avoidable Death of Heroine says "one heroine dies in this vn and it's avoidable but there could be other heroine death's in this vn and they may or may not be avoidable, no promises for anything"." Ambiguous, uninformative, unhelpful, misleading etc. If this going to be created no matter what, it should be inapplicable.
Yeah, I agree with Kei-tr. This is a useless tag, and shouldn't exist anymore, or should be unapplicable. Which is why my proposal focuses only on "an "All Avoidable" tag.

Hmm, this one is interesting (now I looked it again maybe beliar's "All Unavoidable Death Scenes of Heroines" intended to be same as this one?)
This tag seems to serve basically the same function as my "All Unavoidable Death Scenes of Heroines", however I'm not sure how to interpret this sentence "This means before/during all endings, there is at least one [scene] that must be seen.". My proposal postulates, that the death scenario does not necessarily happens in every route, but in order to see all the available endings (that are not bad endings), you will inevitably see at least one character death. Unless I misinterpret the sentence I quoted above, EZZ seems to mean that there should be a death in every route, which imho makes the tag super specific and pretty much useless.

About traits, here is my proposal about death.
Not bad. You used some of my proposal, but decided to not employ "Partially Avoidable Deaths". Personally would restructure this:

"Unavoidable Death" (non-applicable) - not needed
"Avoidable death" (non-applicable) - not needed
"True End Death" - not needed
Proposal: link
According to my definition, "Death on Self Route" and "Other Route Death" would be classified as "Partially Avoidable Deaths", hence I would put them under a specific parent.
#16 by Ezezin
2022-11-04 at 17:10
< report >I don't mind if a theoretical "some avoidable" exists. I actually first started with that idea on t3617.2952. What I really want is to salvage the generic avoidable and unavoidable tags (both of them).

Imagine if a user completed only one route which only had a bad end death. The closest applicable tag would be Death of Protagonist, if it doesn't get inapplicable.

Or for example, is I saw one rape scene in one of three possible routes and stopped reading (it happened to me once while checking if a game should be allowed or not). Without an applicable avoidable/unavoidable tag, the closest tag is Rape or one of those many rape tags.

Unless I misinterpret the sentence I quoted above, EZZ seems to mean that there should be a death in every route, which imho makes the tag super specific and pretty much useless.
To tell you the truth, I hate it too. It was just an idea I had a little before clicking "submit" and didn't thought about it too much. I felt I was having little time to come with an answer and posted my latest (unfinished) work in progress.Last modified on 2022-11-04 at 17:32
#17 by kei-tr
2022-11-04 at 19:34
< report >
I didn't add [character] because I was not planning on having those tags for hero/heroine/protagonist.

??? If you don't add "for a [character]" to end of the definition (or rather, it should be like this "...best possible ending for a [character] or true ending") of "Unavoidable [scene]" then it means something like this: "There is at least one [scene] that must be seen before reaching One True End". In other words, any "heroine death scene" that could happen in any of character routes doesn't count for this tag and the tag only will be applied if an "unavoidable death scene" happens in the One True End.

Why "going to waste"? It's not like my proposal somehow invalidates EZZ efforts.

I somehow understand what you said in your previous post as you reached your final decision and you will not accept any different proposition except for minor fixes or something.

I think my names better express the intent of the tags, as people rarely read the descriptions, and the current names are really unhelpful. I would have no idea how to use the current tags, if I didn't read the descriptions.
Because just like with the tags, I think the new names better reveal the exact nature of the trait.

Ok, no strong objections here. But old names (when they fit the tags/traits) as well as a few others, should have to be added as aliases.

Vn has a ladder structure, where there is only a single route

Are vns with ladder structures considered single-route vns??? (Ladder Structure doesn't mention this, its even child tag of Branching Plot)

I actually think it's useless to split the hairs regarding the best/not-so good endings. Only proper endings and premature bad endings should be taken into account when creating the tags.

I agree with beliar here.

There is only a semantic difference between yours "Unavoidable [scene]" and a theoretical "some avoidable [scene]".

The difference I see is you can use "Unavoidable [scene]" as long as there is one unavoidable scene, but "some avoidable [scene]" requires at least one unavoidable and one avoidable scene to be present. I prefer "Unavoidable [scene]".

EZZ seems to mean that there should be a death in every route, which imho makes the tag super specific and pretty much useless.

I think it also counts (or should have count) if "heroine death scene" happens in common route/before branching point or if vn is a kinetic novel. The main difference I see between beliar's "All Unavoidable Death Scenes of Heroines" and Ezezin's "Only Unavoidable [Scene]" is this: beliar's version becomes unusable as soon as some avoidable scene gets in the mix. I think this greatly hampers usage of the tag; more than Ezezin's version. There is also the problem I mentioned above: "if there is only one "heroine death scene" and it doesn't even happen in her own route, then this tag still would be applicable". That's why I prefer Ezezin's version here. (Note: I initially thought in cases death happens in every route it should happen to the same character but maybe that isn't a necessity when it comes to tags?)

Imagine if a user completed only one route which only had a bad end death.
Or for example, is I saw one rape scene in one of three possible routes and stopped reading

Yes, I guess some people tag vns without finishing them (Well, you can apply some tags without finishing a vn like Ponytail Heroine. You can tag a vn with this even before starting that vn. You only need to look at pictures of heroines for a Ponytail Heroine and apply the tag if there is one. But you have to finish a vn before applying some tags like the tags we are talking about right now; maybe something about this should have to be added to d10#2.1). But is this the right approach? I mean, creating tags only meant to be used for part of a vn, creating tags only taking into account part of vn? I find it pretty weird. People who partially read a vn either shouldn't tag it with tags like these or should use parent tags like Death of Protagonist as you said (this tag has to be downvoted later after a more specific child tag is added). Isn't this the current approach for all other tags as well? beliar told me so at t3617.2945.

I mentioned this above but I think we should continue to use Unavoidable Death of Heroine after some clarifications are made. Because if we rely only on "only/all/complete unavoidable death" tags we become unable to tag lots of vns with one or a few "unavoidable heroine deaths" and can't inform people about "unavoidable heroine deaths" in those vns. "Some Avoidable" is good but it can be used only if there are "avoidable deaths" along with "unavoidable deaths". So, I recommend continuing to use Unavoidable Death of Heroine after some clarifications are made.

Edit: Typo and grammar fixesLast modified on 2022-11-04 at 21:00
#18 by beliar
2022-11-04 at 20:34
< report >
I somehow understand what you said in your previous post as you reached your final decision and you will not accept any different proposition except for minor fixes or something.
Lol, no. It was just a proposal.

Vns with ladder structure are considered single route vns???
I chose the most extreme example to illustrate my point. Some ladder VNs branch into routes, but others might just branch into short scenes that transition to endings, without resulting in proper routes.

The difference I see is you can use "Unavoidable [scene]" as long as there is one unavoidable scene, but "some avoidable [scene]" requires at least one unavoidable and one avoidable scene to be present. I prefer "Unavoidable [scene]".
The thing is that under my proposal, as long as there is a least a single unavoidable scene, "All/Only Unavoidable" tag covers that, which makes "Unavoidable" redundant, which is why "some avoidable" is my preferred option, as it covers the rest.

I think it also counts (or should have count) if death happens in common route/before branching point or if vn is a kinetic novel.
Well, yes, I thought that was super obvious, that is why I didn't specifically mention that.

beliar's version becomes unusable as soon as some avoidable scene gets in the mix.
Indeed, which is why I proposed "some avoidable" to supplant the deficiencies of my tag. However, EZZ wording makes it seem that every route "must" have an unavoidable death scene (which is super rare, and makes the tag super specific), rather than "may" have, as is with my tag.

I did some thinking, and I'm really happy my tag excludes any avoidable deaths, as it's simply impossible to correctly tag that without starting tagging characters. So, yeah, I'm staying with my initial proposal that "Some Avoidable Death Scenes of Heroines" is absolutely needed as a separate tag.

People who partially read a vn should use parent tags like Death of Protagonist
I also think this. The most generic parent tag should be used if you haven't finished the game and only have seen one scene or something.
#19 by kei-tr
2022-11-04 at 22:00
< report >
The thing is that under my proposal, as long as there is a least a single unavoidable scene, "All/Only Unavoidable" tag covers that, which makes "Unavoidable" redundant, which is why "some avoidable" is my preferred option, as it covers the rest.

Ok, if we are going to use Ezezin's "Only Unavoidable [Scene]", I am still in favour of using Unavoidable Death of Heroine instead of "some avoidable". But if we are going to use beliar's "All Unavoidable Death Scenes of Heroines", we can use "some avoidable". But I think its name still should contain the word of "unavoidable" instead of "some avoidable". Two reasons: 1) That way it will be more consistent with the naming of other tags. 2 and real reason) Its description will have "...at least one unavoidable scene..." so emphasizing "unavoidable" rather than "avoidable" in the name of the tag will be more accurate and less misleading.

EZZ wording makes it seem that every route "must" have an unavoidable death scene (which is super rare, and makes the tag super specific), rather than "may" have, as is with my tag.

I still think vns with all of their scenes are unavoidable without some avoidable scenes in the mix is much rarer than vns where unavoidable scenes are either in all routes or in common route or vn is a kinetic novel. But I leave it to you.Last modified on 2022-11-04 at 22:02
#20 by kei-tr
2022-12-04 at 18:15
< report >One month passed since our last conversation, any progress been made since then?
#21 by kei-tr
2022-12-10 at 20:22
< report >Bump
#22 by kei-tr
2022-12-17 at 21:05
< report >I don't want to subject dying after long discussions we had and finally reaching a rough decision thus letting them all go to waste. I appreciate if you don't ignore.Last modified on 2022-12-18 at 03:31
#23 by Ezezin
2022-12-22 at 19:30
< report >Dude, stop. Just because changes weren't made doesn't mean we are ignoring the subject or forgot about it. Be patient, there's only one active tagmod and lots of traits and tags. Some changes can take months before being applied.

We are all busy, specially around this time of the year (holidays, Christmas, new year, family, etc.).Last modified on 2022-12-22 at 19:32
#24 by kei-tr
2022-12-22 at 20:04
< report >Thanks for answering, finally. All did I want was a simple answer like "we are still working on it" or "we gave up because it is too much of a hassle" (not that I can do anything about it if that's the case besides getting disappointed and upset) which doesn't take more than several seconds. Besides, my first message was 3 weeks ago and wasn't "this time of the year" yet.

There are several examples in the past I did post something in db discussions and didn't get an answer from mods at all and it isn't easy for me to determine if I am ignored, people didn't see my posts or they simply don't bother with answering.
#25 by Ezezin
2022-12-22 at 20:43
< report >There are 3 main reasons we won't answer you:

1º We simply don't know the answer.
2º Already working on it or will work in the future. Specially for tags and traits requests which can take months.
3º Ignoring because of bait, trolling or spam, which is what I did after #21.

Not every (genuine) requests or reports are answered, but that doesn't mean we ignore them.

Also, stop "bumping" threads. This is not the first you do that: t19102.2